If all players remained fit throughoutthe season, yes, but as it is, Carrick is our only defensive midfielder. What happens if he gets injured? W'd be screwed. I rate Carrick a lot, but we also have to think of what happens if he suffers another slump in form? Then who do we play? To maintain the depth in our squad, we need a defensive-minded midfielder. I know we never actually play with a true DM, but we need a stand-in for Carrick, and an eventual replacement. We have two or three players for every other position on the pitch(except maybe for LB), so why not have another Carrick-type of player? Anyway, with Kagawa in the side, the need for creativity isnt as big as it was last year.
Luka Modric / Signs for Real Madrid
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
If all players remained fit throughoutthe season, yes, but as it is, Carrick is our only defensive midfielder. What happens if he gets injured? W'd be screwed. I rate Carrick a lot, but we also have to think of what happens if he suffers another slump in form? Then who do we play? To maintain the depth in our squad, we need a defensive-minded midfielder. I know we never actually play with a true DM, but we need a stand-in for Carrick, and an eventual replacement. We have two or three players for every other position on the pitch(except maybe for LB), so why not have another Carrick-type of player? Anyway, with Kagawa in the side, the need for creativity isnt as big as it was last year.
Bear in mind we have signed Kagawa and he should help in that department. Still, I agree once Scholes and Giggs retire we would be left with two -as yet- question marks in Cleverley and Anderson so next Summer we would be crying out for someone like Modric.
As far as this Summer is concerned the immediate glaring problem for next season is that if Carrick is out for any number of games we are well and truly fecked.
Of course, if Modric is available now is probably the best time to get him, and we should, so long as it is bringing next Summer's kitty forward or allowing enough to ALSO secure backup for Carrick.
The main argument revolves around if we were to sign ONLY one player then Modric would leave us short, then people suggesting other players can do both the Modric and the Carrick job if needed. Somewhat academic as none of them are available as far as I know.
Personally, I would expect us to focus our efforts on some form of Carrick backup and Modric will linger for the whole Summer as Levy will push it to the end (knowing this is not the best Summer to trade him: no multiple major suitors) and we aren't desperate.
If Modric doesn't make a move indicating he wants out I doubt anything will come out of this.
Looking at these is pretty interesting. Frustrating that I can't find the minutes played stat as that tends to give better results. But I was surprised at the amount of interceptions Modric makes, its actually a very high stat, better than Barry, Carrick, Toure, Arteta, Song. Infact its one of the highest in the league. If you want me to add anyone else from the premiership as a comparison let me know.
The two marked in red are the most surprising. He's also got the lowest passing success rate? Very surprising.
Stats taken from http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/England-Premier-League
Code:
Statistic Modric Carrick Toure
Appearances 36 27(3) 31(1)
Goals 4 2 6
Assists 4 3 6
Total Tackles 56 90 55
Total Interceptions [COLOR="red"][B]81[/B][/COLOR] 71 39
Total Fouls 18 20 31
Total Clearances 16 47 27
Total Shots 83 27 65
Total Key Passes 96 31 54
Total Dispossessed [COLOR="Red"][B]88[/B][/COLOR] 9 26
Total Passes 2534 2192 2189
Passing Success 87.4% 90.1% 90.5%The two marked in red are the most surprising. He's also got the lowest passing success rate? Very surprising.
Stats taken from http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/England-Premier-League
That's a fair point, and it's arguable that we may need either another top class midfielder for a more defensive minded role too, or one for less who is to be used as cover for Carrick. It could be argued though that if he sits back and controls the game, Scholes could possibly do the job of Carrick.
I just feel that we really need to look for an attack minded playmaker who is world class at controlling games in midfield, not just good. I don't particularly want us to sign Modric, but I've already stated why, so I won't bore you with all of that again. We need that more than extra cover for Carrick though in my opinion.
Kagawa will help out in a creative sense, however I just don't see him permanently playing as a creative central midfielder, when it's what we need. Yes, we have plenty of midfielders who are more attack minded, however that doesn't mean that we don't need another one.
If Madrid are genuinely interested then we may as well close the thread. There is only one place he'll go if their interest is Real.
There's no way Scholesy, great as he is, can do Carrick's job. That is the most glaring weakness in terms of depth in our squad atm, there is absolutely no cover for Carrick. SAF might see Jones as someone who can do the job but unless he's matured and improved beyond belief during the Euros, thats unlikely to happen.
IF they do get him, dont see space for someone like Sahin there. In any case, i dont see them spending 35mil on a Modric tbh.
I think he could possibly he shoved in the midfield along with whoever our new midfielder is on the odd occasion. While Carrick is known for his defensive duties, it's arguable that controlling games is where his real strength lies. It's not as if we actually play with an out and out holding midfielder, so I think we can get away with throwing someone like Scholes in there on the odd occasion or two.
I agree that there certainly is a bit of a lack of depth problem in the defensive area of midfield. At the same time though, I think our quality issue there is more relevant and has to be addressed more immediately. If we have funds remaining after a big signing, then fine, we can look to extra cover for Carrick.
Antonio Valencia says hi.
Carrick does the linking up job well but his most important role arguably is to screen the defense. Thats something i can never see scholes doing well. At home, vs very weak opposition, we might get away with it but i'd rather we not leave it to that.
Who do you have in mind regarding the expensive signing in CM that you talk about?
An exception really. For foreign players, we're unlikely to be preferred destination when Real come calling. It could happen but unlikely.
You are totally right mate, but we didn't have to deal with Daniel bloody Levy over Valencia.
If Madrid's interest is genuine (highly unlikely), then i'm pretty sure that Levy would be far more willing to negotiate with them than us.
Modric generally attempts more ambitious passes than the other two so lower passing rate is not that surprising. Though people like Scholes and Xavi are able to keep their rate still high even while playing such passes, which is what separates them from the crowd.
They were linked but I do not believe they had any gusto being their pursuit of Valencia. Besides, they had just gotten Ronaldo.
Madrid usually get who they want. It's a fact of life.
Steve Bruce confirmed that Valecia rejected an offer from them.
I see where you're coming from and I definitely think Carrick is much better at what he does. All I'm saying though is that Scholes could perhaps slot in for him as cover in the odd game, assuming that Scholes won't be a regular starter for us next season.
Actually though, when you asked that question, I immediately thought of Martinez. Thinking about him though, I've realised he could be the answer to both problems. He's a very creative midfielder, however he's also regarded as a defensive midfielder, and he certainly can fulfill his defensive duties well. Whether we get him or not is a different matter and I doubt we will, but personally, he would be my ideal signing.
Wrong. They will spend that sort of money on a modric type
Same.
Martinez would be great. Actually the kind of player i want too. But i guess we both see him differently though. I dont think he'd add much to the creative aspect of our team. He'd be a proper solid CM though and along with Carrick, would provide us a solid core to work with. Ofcourse, against weaker teams, we could rest 1 of them and play a totally attack minded player to partner them.
If we go into the season without cover for carrick brought in, it'l be Jones who'l be played there not Scholesy.
Fergie loves Modric and we are desperate for a couple of CMs. Hopefully finances won't prevent us getting our man this time...
It isn't surprising at all when you consider that Modric make three times more key passes than Carrick, he is a much more adventurous passer and the passing statistics reflect that.
Actually Modric made more key passes a game this season than Xavi with 2.7pg/av as opposed to Xavi's 2.1pg/av and significantly more than Scholes who managed 1.1pg/av.
I am quite sure that in a better team Modric's assist rate would increase significantly and quite a few naysayers would be silenced.
Personally, from what I've seen, I think he could add a creative aspect to our midfield that we're currently lacking, but most importantly of all, I think he could also be the answer to our high pressure problems too which have plagued us at times. Admittedly, what I've seen on him is quite limited though in comparison to Modric who I feel like I can make a full judgement on.
I just don't trust Jones as a midfielder though. He's the perfect example of what is wrong with British midfielders in a way: a lack of ability to play there, but praised for working hard and running around like a headless chicken. He has no positional sense, something that Carrick is good with as well when he's in the centre of midfield.
Can anyone name any other recent examples of players choosing us over Real Madrid? Bebe maybe?
Of course it's difficult to answer that properly as we are linked with pretty much every substantial transfer target every season but rarely get confirmation that there was any substance from our side. We do know that Benzema, Ozil and Varane chose Real over us though, and of course Ronaldo himself. Seems to somewhat justify the fear that we are unlikely to "beat" Madrid to a player both clubs decide to target.
I'd think it would suit Spurs well to sell Modric aboard, possibly to the extent that they would accept a lower fee, but perhaps their public ownership would force them to take the highest offer?
Its better to look at interceptions/tackles/passes, etc. per game (on the same site) so you dont have to bother looking at who played however many games.
Carrick didnt make as many interceptions as some might think he usually would, and actually I dont know about statistically in previous seasons because I couldnt find those details on there. But he more than made up for it with his tackles, which if I recall averaged 3 per game as many as any CM at the top clubs in the league. More than Song for example.
Spurs aren't publicly-owned anymore .... as of January of this year.
I don't think so. In terms of who we have available, scholes, clev, ando, giggs are all creative, it's about getting them fit for the season. I think it's hard to judge the creativity of the midfield from last season because they were injured so often. If they don't stay fit next season or don't step up then we may have an issue, but in terms of what we have then we have lots of attack/creative minded players.
In terms of midfielders who are defensively strong we only have Carrick. He's the only one bar Fletch who can provide an effective shield and I think the more defensive midfielder in our midfield has a very big role because of the other midfielders we have. Scholes and Giggs, need extra protection, Clev and Ando haven't had lots of experience in a deeper role and so you can see that whilst they're hard working positionally/tactically they're naive.
Also another midfielder who can hold their own would not only be able to cover for Carrick but also come in along side him which could help us in to ways. Firstly it can give us extra stability for tougher games but also it would allow us to release Carrick forward at times, where I think, especially with his refound form, he has skills to add to our attack that another solid midfielder would let him show more.
Right now we need cover for Carrick as well as an alternative of his type to come in. If our other midfielders don't step up then we should consider a more creative one. We don't know if they'll do that, but we'll suffer greatly if Carrick is injured imo.
Not as much as you obviously.
Mmmm. I actually hinted that to harness his true ability he does require a defensive midfielder next to him. But I don't follow him as closely as you so you must be correct. Well done there.
He didn't play Gustavo's role in the final, he played Schweinsteiger's role, the role he always plays for Bayern. He creates space, he dictates play, he drives forward when space appears, he is the focal point of attacking movements. Chelsea were organised and played very deep, narrow and compact. With just Drogba up top he had more licence and freedom to move forward. Chelsea allowed Bayern possession for the majority of the game. He won't get that type of freedom as a regular occurence.
Scholes, Xavi?
Come on.
I clearly talked of players who can actually hold their own defensively.
No I'm not sure you did actually. You just suggested a regista is perfect for screening the back four. But hey feckin ho I get your point.
There are different types of players in that mix. Busquets is a defensive midfielder, Carrick a central midfielder, Wilshere is box-to-box....Modric should easily fall into it.
Yes I agree that during perhaps their twilight years they were deep-lying players...but they never wanted to be did they? Look at them playing in their twenties and they were much more than playmakers.
You are hard work but I've had a good old stab. To be honest I really didn't want to parp on about Bastian frigging Schweinsteiger in thread concerning Luka Modric, but you drew me into your little game. I do feel I've gone toe to toe with you and probably inched ahead on points, don't be disheartened though I'm sure we can enjoy this again some time. Lets leave it at that old chap.
From those stats we can also draw that Modric is better defensively than Toure etc. Modric plays further up the pitch, in an area where passes need to be made in much less time, with more pressure on the ball, and far fewer players in your team, compared to opposition i.e. more likely to be intercepted.
How much pressure is Carrick under when he plays his passes?
Final 1/3 is much harder. Rooney was like 83~% last season. He's not much inferior to any of those players in terms of passing, especially the longer ones.
He was the one with the brief to protect the Bayern back 4. Not Kroos. Difference being he still went on doing the things he normally does in an attacking sense. Which has been my point all along. Id rather have a player capable of that anchoring the midfield than any other type.
Bottom line all of them anchor the midfield and lose nothing in an attacking sense. Modric most certainly is not that type. He'd be like playing Scholes in Carrick's role.
fair enough.
I'm not old though
Our 4 creative midfield options consist of two players nearly 40 and two unproven players with injury issues, personally I'd welcome Modric with open arms as he has creative quality and the workrate to play in a 2 with Carrick.
Given that the aforementioned Carrick will most likely be the first choice defensive minded CM next season, spending £25-30M on cover for him seems unlikely, so maybe a younger, cheaper option who can start off as his understudy and then replace him makes more sense for a cover buy.
Given that the aforementioned Carrick will most likely be the first choice defensive minded CM next season, spending £25-30M on cover for him seems unlikely, so maybe a younger, cheaper option who can start off as his understudy and then replace him makes more sense for a cover buy.
I think as Jones matures he may be able to fill that role.
I also think the need for a man dedicated to screening the back four is overstated. Two balanced CMs should be able to wing it in a 4-4-2, especially when you have the likes of Rooney and Valencia getting back a lot.
Against the big teams it pays off to have someone playing in front of the back for, but in the majority of games I would rather we have 2 balanced CMs like Modric, Anderson or Cleverley (or Carrick, but giving him a bit more freedom to push forward when needed).
Of course, ideally against the bigger teams we seem to be moving towards a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 with the signing of Kagawa. And in a 3-man midfield you don't tend to get the same problems with ticking all the boxes for the CMs to fill
I also think the need for a man dedicated to screening the back four is overstated. Two balanced CMs should be able to wing it in a 4-4-2, especially when you have the likes of Rooney and Valencia getting back a lot.
Against the big teams it pays off to have someone playing in front of the back for, but in the majority of games I would rather we have 2 balanced CMs like Modric, Anderson or Cleverley (or Carrick, but giving him a bit more freedom to push forward when needed).
Of course, ideally against the bigger teams we seem to be moving towards a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 with the signing of Kagawa. And in a 3-man midfield you don't tend to get the same problems with ticking all the boxes for the CMs to fill
Looks certain to leave. Strong rumour about Real Madrid. My money would be on them, Chelsea or City.
Despite the fact we need him far more than any of them do...
Looks like we've run out of time to sign him before anyone else became interested. I now expect he'll end up somewhere else.
Although it's the Mail and that first sentence is sensationalist, there is a grain of truth there when it says we've been 'caught napping'. We're just not very good at being the front runner in any 'transfer saga' involving a top player
Although it's the Mail and that first sentence is sensationalist, there is a grain of truth there when it says we've been 'caught napping'. We're just not very good at being the front runner in any 'transfer saga' involving a top player
Which is what we need to do if we're to ever secure one. We need to move before everyone else wants them because what we offer is not competitive with what four other leading clubs do.
We need Modric plus another imo as we will play three man CM against better teams, CL etc.
They are not really our only creative options though. In midfield yes, but we have wingers and strikers as well as Kagawa, who provide lots of creativity and goal threat. So you are working on the fact we need Modric to boost our creative options in midfield, but forgetting how much we already have up front and in wide areas.
Most likely be first choice?
He's the only fecking choice atm, and that's the worry!'Cover for Carrick' has now become a bit of a catchphrase, and doesn't really define what we should be looking for. We actually need an alternative to Carrick, someone of equal quality at least. The idea we have to sign someone like Modric or Sneijder to improve creativity or help us control games is wrong imo. We could also sign a Sahin, Martinez, Alonso or a Schweinsteiger type, who would not only give us the added defensive option we need, but also be perfectly adept in keeping possession, while still able to contribute significantly in attack.
That is what we need imo. A player like that would be of far more benefit, and to acquire a player of that quality, we would only be spending a similar amount to what we would have to pay for Modric.
I agree with that assessment, but I still think Modric would offer the most improvement to our starting 11 compared to someone like Martinez or M'Vila etc. Modric would be a replacement for Scholes and offer creativity the other 2 can not. But like you say, if we did that we would likely need to buy another player to cover for Carrick which I don't see happening. I'd be happy with either type of player though, we have enough creativity out wide and up top to compensate for signing someone less creative than Modric.
When has Levy not taken a transfer saga to the last minute? He will squeeze every last dime out of it. Why would he sell him hush hush in June?
He wouldn't. We know that, so the less noisy we make our Modric interest the less likely other will jump on the bandwagon.
Every piece of news so far looks more like agent/Spurs trying to drum up interest than anything else.
Chelsea: have signed and are looking to sign (Hulk) several players for the final third, could still do with a central midfielder but that would leave Lampard in no man's land. Difficult dressing-room politics. If I were Di Matteo I wouldn't upset the apple cart.
City: Mancini loves his DMs and leaving creation to the final third. Question marks on De Jong and Touré apparently wanting out. Modric is not what he would be actively looking for. I wouldn't discard a "me too" bid, but once London is out of the picture Modric should be able to tell where he will be more useful and appreciated for the long term.
Madrid: as stated earlier, don't think they are at all interested. It's not what they need, wages are rocketing due to tax changes, they are in thrift mode and they can get better more appropriate and younger local players for that sort of money. Also, unless they have changed tactics, they've never ever been so quiet about a big signing, they usually build them up very publicly, which they haven't at all. It could change somewhat if Kaká leaves but he insists he is going nowhere, and even then you are talking 40M for a squad player, which is not value for money.
Barca:
Which leaves what? PSG and Málaga? If he prefers going there, he is an idiot.
He is either coming here or staying at Spurs. Levy would sure be happy to leave it for next Summer when we would be more desperate and other suitors may have more reasons to come knocking.
I would say 40-60 and up to him whether he tips the scale.
We may have all of those players who are more attacking, but I ask you this, are any of them world class players? I don't think so. The only one who arguably is would be Scholes, however we know he will be limited with how often he can play, and the others despite being good players, shouldn't really be relied on as our main midfield players. I definitely think we need someone new to be signed there.
I agree that we could probably do with some cover for Carrick in case he gets injured at all, however I really don't think we can afford to make cover our priority, when we're in more need of a first team player to make a difference for us. Our first team priorities should come first in my opinion, with cover then being addressed after that.