Could be absolutely brilliant in Europe there.
Shinji Kagawa
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Could be absolutely brilliant in Europe there.
Well, he's obviously amazing. If he doesn't have a brilliant season then I'll do something that someone wouldn't normally choose to do.
I am very impressed every time I watched him play.
Dunno why people are insisting he was all that much better when we went three in midfield. Perhaps because having spent weeks arguing this was the only way he should be used they're refusing to back down?
I thought he - and all of our midfield - were terrific throughout. Carved them open, time after time. The really big difference in the closing stages was partly the game getting stretched but mainly because we no longer had Herbandez fluffing simple chances and getting constantly caught fecking offside. That and Valencia being a class above young Will Keane. We might have scored a bunch of goals in the closing stages but we really should have scored 4 or 5 in the first half alone.
As for Kagawa, he was outstanding from the first minute to the last. Such an exciting player.
I thought he - and all of our midfield - were terrific throughout. Carved them open, time after time. The really big difference in the closing stages was partly the game getting stretched but mainly because we no longer had Herbandez fluffing simple chances and getting constantly caught fecking offside. That and Valencia being a class above young Will Keane. We might have scored a bunch of goals in the closing stages but we really should have scored 4 or 5 in the first half alone.
As for Kagawa, he was outstanding from the first minute to the last. Such an exciting player.
Part of me wants us to not sign van persie just so kagawa can play behind Rooney for a lot of the time, because I feel like they can become absolutely fantastic together. Something about Rooney in the number 10 position, I'm not a fan of. Maybe he's just too predictable constantly playing the ball out wide, or maybe his dribbling isnt good enough for that position but. Think kagawa, as good as he was there, would be wasted if we played him in center mid a lot. Occasionally it's fine but id like to see him in his best position for most of the time.
Rooney was at his brilliant best as a number 10 last night. Just like the start of last season.
btw.. any update on Will?
Oops. My bad.
Got a mention during commentary but was just along the lines of "terrible shame, long road to recovery blah blah..."
It's pretty clear he's more suited to playing in an advanced role. Of course he might play in a midfield two from time to time but that'll be only against weaker opposition. The idea of playing him in the 2 next to Carrick in 4231 with Rooney playing #10 and Welbeck/Van Persie up front against someone decent is still silly.
The teamplay and movement Cleverly, Kagawa, Nani and to some extend Rooney showed against Hannover was really mouth watering at times.
I hope we get to see more of this during the coming season but with Carrick to offer some protection for the offensive parts of our midfield and maybe with only one striker as well.
Cleverly/Scholes and Carrick behind Kagawa and with Nani and Valencia/Young on the wings with Rooney as a free roaming striker up front, damn I think that could make for some very attractive football this season.
But it's only pre-season so let's not get too much ahead of ourselves.
I hope we get to see more of this during the coming season but with Carrick to offer some protection for the offensive parts of our midfield and maybe with only one striker as well.
Cleverly/Scholes and Carrick behind Kagawa and with Nani and Valencia/Young on the wings with Rooney as a free roaming striker up front, damn I think that could make for some very attractive football this season.
But it's only pre-season so let's not get too much ahead of ourselves.
I don't think there's a single person on redcafe suggesting we do that.
The thing is, at least 80% of our games are against weaker opposition.
Yeah it can't possibly be because we've formed an opinion of our own that just happens to differ from yours.
Kagawa looked miles better in the free role. He lost the ball quite a few times in the first half.
For the record, I have never argued that he can't play in a 2-man midfield, in fact I have wished to see him there since we signed him.
That was just a guess. I obviously can't read anyone's mind.
The rest of my post addresses why I think he was just as good before the subs as he was after, with poor play from Hernandez the only real difference. I think we'll ship goals if we go up against really good teams with Kagawa as one of just two CMs but last night proved he's plenty capable of playing that role against all but the very best. Which means we can still start the vast majority of our games with two strikers and still play Kagawa in the middle. Something a few people have been claiming we can't.
The rest of my post addresses why I think he was just as good before the subs as he was after, with poor play from Hernandez the only real difference. I think we'll ship goals if we go up against really good teams with Kagawa as one of just two CMs but last night proved he's plenty capable of playing that role against all but the very best. Which means we can still start the vast majority of our games with two strikers and still play Kagawa in the middle. Something a few people have been claiming we can't.
Love the way he twists people up on the edge of the box be it a fake shot or just switching it to other foot.Very aware and composed in the final third something we lack at certain times in decision making.
Not until we went 3-1 down. He was practically invisible before hand, then he managed to turn the game around.
It's hard to judge how well he could do it off one game because on one hand we never really dominated in the first half and then fell behind once they brought out their better players but then we didn't have our real defence out there.
I also think Rooney playing as deep as he did made a big difference. I've said before but I don't think last season he played deep enough on a consistent basis. He started off deeper but then as the season went on we looked more like we were playing a more orthodox 442. If we want the likes of kagawa and clev to get involved then they need that player or they'll get isolated and then will have to be more reserved. Additionally it would depend on how well he could maintain his form there. Yesterday and in general in this preseason he looks fitter/ sharper. If he can keep that up than great but if he starts fluctuating in his performances in the hole then it might make things tougher for the centre mids trying to influence further up the pitch.
Personally as well as I said I don't doubt he could play there but I thought we looked so much more dangerous whenever he got in to that final third and played better when we made the swap. He could play deeper against some teams especially if carrick is alongside him but I'd worry against decent teams who commit runners from the middle as he, like clev works hard but can be drawn to the ball.
But I don't see why we would play him deeper on a regular basis. Like I said he's looks much more dangerous in a more advanced role and also with Anderson and Powell if he's starting in the middle against weaker teams then it doesn't leave much for them.
Personally I think judging from how good he has looked in am it means against some teams we can actually afford to give the likes of Rooney and maybe Some of the wingers more regular breaks as we have another player who can make things happen. I think that's a more important asset he's given us than his ability to play deeper.
I also think Rooney playing as deep as he did made a big difference. I've said before but I don't think last season he played deep enough on a consistent basis. He started off deeper but then as the season went on we looked more like we were playing a more orthodox 442. If we want the likes of kagawa and clev to get involved then they need that player or they'll get isolated and then will have to be more reserved. Additionally it would depend on how well he could maintain his form there. Yesterday and in general in this preseason he looks fitter/ sharper. If he can keep that up than great but if he starts fluctuating in his performances in the hole then it might make things tougher for the centre mids trying to influence further up the pitch.
Personally as well as I said I don't doubt he could play there but I thought we looked so much more dangerous whenever he got in to that final third and played better when we made the swap. He could play deeper against some teams especially if carrick is alongside him but I'd worry against decent teams who commit runners from the middle as he, like clev works hard but can be drawn to the ball.
But I don't see why we would play him deeper on a regular basis. Like I said he's looks much more dangerous in a more advanced role and also with Anderson and Powell if he's starting in the middle against weaker teams then it doesn't leave much for them.
Personally I think judging from how good he has looked in am it means against some teams we can actually afford to give the likes of Rooney and maybe Some of the wingers more regular breaks as we have another player who can make things happen. I think that's a more important asset he's given us than his ability to play deeper.
Not at all. Played Nani through for one of the sitters Hernandez missed. Played Hernandez through with a great pass (same outcome) took the shot from which Hernandez (finally) scored and generally heavily involved in everything we did. We actually played really well going forwards for the full 90 minutes. The scoreline really flattered them. We were really quite dominant. The difference being they took their chances, Zieler was excellent and Hernandez was hapless.
Definitely showed he's an option in the middle with his performance. It obviously wasn't perfect but good to know he has that in his locker.
So after seeing him for start in one game in a friendly in CM, a load of people are sure it's not his most natural position?
Are some people just scared to admit they were wrong about our CM?
Are some people just scared to admit they were wrong about our CM?
No one will know who's right or wrong about midfield until the end of the season Twig.
Every game we lose the "central midfield" line will be trotted out for better or for worse.
Considering he's never played in CM before, then why would it be his most natural position? He's obviously at best behind the striker, but that isn't to say he wont be played in cm if needed. If we had another defender fit yesterday then chances are Kagawa would have started further up field.
Well it was a friendly, and it's not what you've said at all.
Doesn't sound like the words of a man who thinks he wouldn't be as good there, to me. In fact every single time I asked you in this thread whether we would be limiting him there, you ignored the question and didn't give a response.
Also, it's irrelevant that 90% on here disagree with you? Explains a lot.
EDIT: For the record, I never said we wouldn't use him in midfield, I said it would be a waste, last night was just a glimpse of how much better he is behind the striker than in a midfield 2.
He can clearly play CM. If you play play three in the middle, he could alternate with Cleverly in terms of breaking forward. Both use the ball so well. It's a step up from what we've had. Kagawa's goal threat has been VERY pleasing.
Yeah pretty much.
I was actually just about to comment on that. More or less what I think. As the link player kagawa looks like he could add a real dimension to the team and still give plenty of games for welbeck and Hernandez. Add Rvp and players will lose out both in attack and in midfield if kagawa goes deeper. If its a bargain price that fair enough but I think anything excessive the money could be better spent on an extra defender or an alternative for carrick.
All fair points, but....
That wasn't the debate in any way. There is nobody who is suggesting he can't spearhead a 3 man midfield, it's what he does best.
It certainly could, but it won't, for some stupid reason.
i just think the beauty of Van Persie is that we aren't reliant on Rooney - we don't need him but we would definately benefit from having him
Welbeck isn't prolific and picked up a few injuries (hamstrings)
Hernandez is limited in his build up play and still struggles with offsides
The manager doesn't trust Berbatov
Rooney can be excellent in runs of games - it would be good to be able to rest him more and we might see a more sharp, consistent Rooney
Welbeck isn't prolific and picked up a few injuries (hamstrings)
Hernandez is limited in his build up play and still struggles with offsides
The manager doesn't trust Berbatov
Rooney can be excellent in runs of games - it would be good to be able to rest him more and we might see a more sharp, consistent Rooney
Yeah but now we have kagawa who is a genuine alternative to Rooney in terms of what he can bring from a creative point of view in the middle and might even be better in the hole or at least more consistent that Rooney. Hernandez and welbeck are both young true but both are at a point where they should be stepping up. Welbeck had a good first season and showed a lot of maturity at the euros. He needs to step up his finishing but that will come. Hernandez is having a bit of bad luck with his goals but again I think he's at a level where he can contribute. Rvp would take some burden of rooneys shoulders but as I said he would also likely play the majority of games. Last season Rooney got 34 goals which is excellent but not excessive, especially when 9 or so of them were pens. We didn't really struggle for goals.
I think we have enough attacking talent in the squad as it is that we don't need Rvp. I'm a fan of his and were we to get him I'd be happy but. Don't think we really need him. As I said in kagawa we have an alternative to Rooney from the creative pont of view and he's shown he can link up with both Hernandez and welbeck well, personally I think Hernandez will really enjoy having him.
I think we have enough attacking talent in the squad as it is that we don't need Rvp. I'm a fan of his and were we to get him I'd be happy but. Don't think we really need him. As I said in kagawa we have an alternative to Rooney from the creative pont of view and he's shown he can link up with both Hernandez and welbeck well, personally I think Hernandez will really enjoy having him.
Thought both he and cleverley worked very well together.
Both passed very well, there movement was excellent and helped support the frontline better than I have seen our midfield in years.
Contrary to what others have said, kagawa actually made some good tackles in this game that I saw.
What I don't get is why people are worrying about "tracking runners", scholes is the worst for that, when somebody runs passed him he can never track but we don't worry about that.
My whole theory on kagawa playing as a 2 man midfield is in light of the van persie possible transfer, and the fact the goal threat from midfield is minimal.
In the first half alone he got into the box regularly and had many goal chances and possible assist, I thought he did very very well.
Sure there midfield isn't the best in the world, but they are a good team and it was a decent test. I think he passed with flying colours.
It atleast gives us another option, we can now see we can fit them all into 1 team.
Both passed very well, there movement was excellent and helped support the frontline better than I have seen our midfield in years.
Contrary to what others have said, kagawa actually made some good tackles in this game that I saw.
What I don't get is why people are worrying about "tracking runners", scholes is the worst for that, when somebody runs passed him he can never track but we don't worry about that.
My whole theory on kagawa playing as a 2 man midfield is in light of the van persie possible transfer, and the fact the goal threat from midfield is minimal.
In the first half alone he got into the box regularly and had many goal chances and possible assist, I thought he did very very well.
Sure there midfield isn't the best in the world, but they are a good team and it was a decent test. I think he passed with flying colours.
It atleast gives us another option, we can now see we can fit them all into 1 team.
We did and we do, but we have grown to accept it as Scholes gives so much else to the team he is allowed that failing.
But after seeing him start one game in a friendly as CM, it is evidence that it could be his most natural position?
How would they be wrong? I'm not sure one game in a friendly can be used to argue his 'most natural position' either way.
He will become more important to United than Rooney...As big a transfer in the Premiership this summer than any other than perhaps RVP will become...I think you guys are going to be a different team this season...A lot of exciting scoring ahead
I've been following Kagawa since his Dortmund days and I reckon he is better than Rooney in the hole. His positional sense, awareness and football intelligence is outstanding. He never seems to have a bad game either.
It's inevitable he'll play some games as a midfielder given we've played Jones, Park and Rooney there in the past year and he's more suited to the role than any of them, but it'd just be a complete waste to play him there regularly. Restricting his freedom would restrict his movement, why would we want to restrict one of the most impressive facets of his game?
Exactly, if injuries need him to play there or we want to be particularly attacking for some reason then play him there but he looks like he can give us so much from a free role. Part of our problem hasn't just been in midfield but because of an absence of a link player on a regular basis. With cleverley looking a real prospect I don't see the need to try and change Kagawa.
I think two in the middles outdated these days at the top level. If we faced Barcelona say, Kagawa could play the hole dropping deep and cleverly could play by Carrick or Anderson or whoever.
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