Well that's cleared that up, thanks.
Alex Salmond and Independence
- Thread starter Team Brian GB
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Well that's cleared that up, thanks.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/15/scottish-independence-editorial
I am rather proud of being British at this moment. Well done Cameron!
I suppose it goes back to the dissolution of empire in a way, which was so obviously unsustainable after the war (except to a few rightist loons) that processes had to be found to facilitate independence of country after country. It's in the national psyche now, democratic will, and no bad thing.
this is quite a moment.
wonder if they'll go for it.
assuming they do, would there be a big push in Wales for the Taffs to follow suit?
wonder if they'll go for it.
assuming they do, would there be a big push in Wales for the Taffs to follow suit?
Whoooaaa there! It was a Scottish King that united the crowns, the parliaments united some 100 years later. It's not the same as the dissolution of empire at all. This is not the same!
They won't go for it, and Wales is a totally different matter. Constitutionally!
So it's basically all or nothing for Salmond and the SNP. He is fecked for the foreseeable future if he loses this referendum.
He's not saying that the Scottish-English Union is the same as the empire, but the "accept the will of the people" ideology stems from that.
There is less appetite for it in Wales. It is harder to make the case that Wales could be a prosperous and viable country on its own.
Doesn't mean much. People tend to think with their hearts, not their heads, in these matters. If there was a referendum here in Ireland and Northern Ireland tomorrow about whether there should be a united Ireland, it would almost certainly pass, I reckon. That's despite the fact that economically it would be an absolute disaster. Neither country can afford it.
Id be prepared to bet a fairly sizable amount that Wales wouldnt go for it. Maybe the heart can overrule the head in such matters, but it doesnt seem to be deeply ingrained in their hearts either. I dont think either an independent Scotland or a United Ireland are relevant comparisons. Anyway, this is a pointless tangent, utterly unquantifiable and without any prospect of happening in the foreseeable future, so not much point in speculating about it. Its hard enough to guess how it will go in Scotland.
I think you meant Scottish National Party.
Opinion polls suggest only 23% of the population are in favour of independence, so lord knows where you are getting our information from. Perhaps you are Alex Salmond in disguise?
Roll on Autumn 2014 so we can put all this independence nonsence to bed. Salmond and his dungaree wearing lesbian cohort Nicola Sturgeon are living in a land full of gingerbread houses and chocolate roads if they think Scotland can successfully sustain itself. They've never once come out in any detail about how this will work and it smacks of them both looking to get some form of personal gain, ie being remembered for breaking up the union, rather than any real political desire to see Scotland independent. Salmond still thinks we can adopt the Sterling as our currency, well afraid not if we are no longer part of the UK. If we want the Euro, well we'll have to apply for EU membership and before that happens there will need to be another referendum. I guess in the meantime we'll just have to use empty bottles of Buckfast as currency or perhaps milk bottle tops.
The only other good thing about this deal finally being agreed is that come 2014, once the population of Scotland votes NO, it'll be the end of Salmond and Sturgeon politically.
I can't wait.
Eh? Why can't Scotland use sterling as its currency?
Err because it's the currency of the United Kingdom, and once independent we will no longer be part of it. There would need to be a referendum in the new UK to allow an independent Scotland to have monetary union. George Osbourne has said that the UK could vote against Scotland having a currency union with them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-19512519
Alastair Darling has said similar.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jun/25/scottish-independence-darling-ridicules-salmond
But hey, going by your posts in this thread you clearly know more than me.
Cameron has called Salmond's bluff really. Salmond had clearly hoped to stall any referendum for as long as possible as he knows full well what the outcome is likely to be. Cameron also negotiated the referendum on his terms with a simple "yes or no" and not a whole host of other little power devolving sweeteners that I'm sure the SNP would have wanted.
Personally I think it is good that the Scottish people have this opportunity to decide their destiny...purely on a democratic basis.
The reason Salmond wants the 16/17 year olds to vote is because without them, it's highly unlikely independence will be voted through.
Let the referendum happen as it'll put all this rubbish to bed once and for all and no doubt end the political career of Salmond.
Can you actually stop someone using your currency? Even if the UK said no, which I cant imagine it would, Scotland could create its own currency and peg it to the pound.
Anyway, this is all idle threats IMO. I dont think anyone would stop Scotland from using the pound, not for a transitional period while it prepared to join the euro at least, and probably not on an ongoing basis either. It would be very petty.
Anyway, this is all idle threats IMO. I dont think anyone would stop Scotland from using the pound, not for a transitional period while it prepared to join the euro at least, and probably not on an ongoing basis either. It would be very petty.
At no point in either of those articles does it mention a referendum
Besides which, there would be nothing to stop the Scots using the pound. They could be prevented from being in monetary union, for sure, but that's all. The British can't stop them using the pound.
What they lose is any power to have interest rates and such set which are beneficial to themselves. Obviously, with the Scots out of the union, the Bank of England won't make decisions that help them out, except by proxy. The Scot will be at the mercy of decisions made without their input, but they can't actually be stopped from using the pound.
For decades, the Irish pound was tied to British Sterling on a one-for-one basis. Even now, there are many countries around the world where the US dollar is esentially legal tender, despite those countries not being in a monetary union with the US.
If Scotland votes for independence (and it's a big if) then that will be the end of the union with the rest of the UK. However we have 3 options for currency - join the Euro, create our own or join a "sterling" zone. However if we keep the pound, and England could veto that quite easily, then interest rates would be set by London and not Edinburgh thus meaning we aren't quite as independent as the SNP would like, even if this is there preferred currency option.
At no point in either of those articles does it mention a referendum
Besides which, there would be nothing to stop the Scots using the pound. They could be prevented from being in monetary union, for sure, but that's all. The British can't stop them using the pound.
What they lose is any power to have interest rates and such set which are beneficial to themselves. Obviously, with the Scots out of the union, the Bank of England won't make decisions that help them out, except by proxy. The Scot will be at the mercy of decisions made without their input, but they can't actually be stopped from using the pound.
For decades, the Irish pound was tied to British Sterling on a one-for-one basis. Even now, there are many countries around the world where the US dollar is esentially legal tender, despite those countries not being in a monetary union with the US.
We (Scotland) cannot keep the pound as our currency unless an English government agrees.
But Scotland can create the "Scottish" pound and set it at a one-for-one basis, which is essentially the same thing. That's what Ireland did in its early years of independence.
I think Count Orduck's post above is better than mine. I didnt actually bother to read the links, but he says there is no talk of a referendum anyway, which I must say makes more sense. Yes, Scotland would lose control of monetary policy - either with the pound or the euro. But clearly Scotland could carry on with its currency status quo, which is the bit in your previous post I was contesting.
See they can't because England have the power to veto that, which is one of the Tories main arguments. Salmond and Sturgeon are basing the whole currency issue around keeping the pound, which the Tories are saying isn't 100% guaranteed.
You keep ignoring the retort to this point: even if the UK denied them the right to use the pound, they could create a currency with a 1-1 peg. Scotland then has defacto currency status quo, problem solved. The transition would be seamless.
Orduck
Why if the Scottish are so desperate for independence why has Salmond asked for:
1. 16 & 17 year old's to vote
2. English based Scots to be prohibited from the vote
3. Two years before the vote takes place
4. For the vote to be on an emotive and nationalist date
?
Why if the Scottish are so desperate for independence why has Salmond asked for:
1. 16 & 17 year old's to vote
2. English based Scots to be prohibited from the vote
3. Two years before the vote takes place
4. For the vote to be on an emotive and nationalist date
?
I don't know if they want independence on a national level. I'm not Scottish. Perhaps they truly don't.
What I find odd is that the overwhelming majority of English people seem to be utterly disparaging and insulting towards the Scots on this matter. It's treated as if there's zero chance that they'll want to leave and that this is all stupid, and the Scots should know better. I think it's that sort of attitude that will piss them off.
What makes it worse is that the anti-independence attitude from the UK isn't, "look, we're stronger and richer as a Union so let's keep it that way," but more, "haha, you're so shit you'd never be able to make it on your own, Scotland. Losers." That's so patronising... so English.
I'm just trying to point out that, (1) perhaps there's more Scots supporting this than the Brits like to think, (2) that acting as if they're being stupid little children for considering it is both insulting and probably counter-productive, and finally, (3) that Scotland might make a better fist of independence than the Brits give them credit for, especially with the European safety net that they'll almost certainly have in place.
What I find odd is that the overwhelming majority of English people seem to be utterly disparaging and insulting towards the Scots on this matter. It's treated as if there's zero chance that they'll want to leave and that this is all stupid, and the Scots should know better. I think it's that sort of attitude that will piss them off.
What makes it worse is that the anti-independence attitude from the UK isn't, "look, we're stronger and richer as a Union so let's keep it that way," but more, "haha, you're so shit you'd never be able to make it on your own, Scotland. Losers." That's so patronising... so English.
I'm just trying to point out that, (1) perhaps there's more Scots supporting this than the Brits like to think, (2) that acting as if they're being stupid little children for considering it is both insulting and probably counter-productive, and finally, (3) that Scotland might make a better fist of independence than the Brits give them credit for, especially with the European safety net that they'll almost certainly have in place.
Maybe this has been answered, but where does this leave the North Sea oil if the Scots do get independence?
No they don't. If Scotland becomes an independent nation and decides to stick with Sterling, what's England going to do, invade to get their pounds back? As for England somehow vetoing Scotland pegging a new Scottish currency to the pound...
is all I can say there.The Great Currency Wars are coming. England will gloriously defeat Scotland and liberate the pound, leaving it with a new currency backed by offal and heroin.
We will then turn our attention to Gibraltar, which is also taking great liberties with its own currency peg.
By God I will not abide a currency that does not float.
that's the big thing cos with that they could be viable financially but there's probably two chances of the Scots getting that oil, none and feck all. or feck oil. I'm sure the English have some language set up where they keep that, or proportionally a large portion of it, without regard for the location of the oil fields.
Scotland would have no control over monetary policy unless they developed their own currency, this currency might be linked to the Sterling exchange rate but it would not be interchangeable with Sterling.
All this talk is academic though; it's never going to happen.
the Jersey pound is similar to the GBP but try using Jersey money on a High St in England.......
You can use Sterling in Jersey, but they'll give you Jersey pounds in return.
not the same thing, but a similar situation could be set up for the Scots.
it's not like all the bankers are English anyway.
You can use Sterling in Jersey, but they'll give you Jersey pounds in return.
not the same thing, but a similar situation could be set up for the Scots.
it's not like all the bankers are English anyway.
A country can use any currency it likes as legal tender, it would simply have no control over the monetary policy associated with it.
How do you fund a budget deficit if you don't have your own currency and does that effect the interest rate paid?
What share of the oil reserve does Scotland keep?
What share of the national debt does Scotland take?
Our nuclear submarines, where are we going to keep them?
When the rest of the UK gets its referendum on the EU and votes to leave what effects if any will that have?
Will England decide to leave the rest of the Union if Scotland leaves and where would that leave N.Ireland and Wales?
What do the SNP say on these matters?
What share of the oil reserve does Scotland keep?
What share of the national debt does Scotland take?
Our nuclear submarines, where are we going to keep them?
When the rest of the UK gets its referendum on the EU and votes to leave what effects if any will that have?
Will England decide to leave the rest of the Union if Scotland leaves and where would that leave N.Ireland and Wales?
What do the SNP say on these matters?
Free William Wallace! with the purchase of our box of cereal
The oil and national debt questions in particular are good ones, I would like to know the answers myself.
ok.