Well, I am not the only one who thinks like that. It was obvious for whoever watched the game, on moments it was frustrating for me as a Manchester United and Berba fan who knows how lazy he can be, I can't imagine how Fulham fans felt. He is two classes above any Fulham player, but that doesn't change fact he was dry at the end of the match.
Berbatov | Fulham player
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Well, I am not the only one who thinks like that. It was obvious for whoever watched the game, on moments it was frustrating for me as a Manchester United and Berba fan who knows how lazy he can be, I can't imagine how Fulham fans felt. He is two classes above any Fulham player, but that doesn't change fact he was dry at the end of the match.
Then you weren't watching carefully. Also he was dropping into midfield adn Rodigella was working the channels.
Scholes isn't lazy, he just lacks mobility.
So Hernandez's and Welbeck's stats must be covering 20km's per game, since Fergie got rid of berba because of his "languid style".
Give up. What more do you want? You called him lazy after a game in which he had the most touches of the ball for the winning side, when playing for a striker, even though his team only had 47% of possession. Something isn't right here is it? SAF, the greatest manager in football history suggests his languid style misleads people and that his stats prove he isn't lazy. Given what you've said tonight, which is in total contrast to his contribution to the game, I think it's fair to say SAF has it right.
I saw parts of the game (had it on in the background while working) and while I agree he looks lazy and always has, I don't think he was that bad today. Each his own though. I can't be arsed to get into a huge argument about it - only thing I didn't like was cheesy's logic in his post.
SAF, the greatest manager in football history said Gibson is ideal replacemant for scholes, do you agree with him? And same SAF who said that berba looks lazy because of his style of play, got rid of Berbatov because of his style of play.
Of course he was dropping into midfield, he wouldn't have half of touches if he didn't.
Looking through statistics, tell me difference between lacking mobility and laziness?
If you are lazy, you will cover less pitch then any other player, and if you are lacking mobility, you will cover less pitch then any other player. And yet, both lazy(Berbatov) and player who lacks mobility(Scholes) quite often end up game with more touches then any other player on the pitch. There goes your argument about his touches.
But Berbatov doesn't cover less pitch. As SAF pointed out when talking about his stats, he'd run further than Rooney.
You are confusing pace and athleticism with work rate. You are also being deliberately obtuse, by trying to make comparisons between Scholes and Berbatov.
This isn't about Berbatov anymore, it's about your ego. The idea that a striker can have so many touches of the ball, in such a high tempo a game, when his team had much less possession is plain crazy. You just want to keep arguing to save face. Berbatov saw so much of the ball because he worked his backside off and deserves credit for it. This is the Premier League, not some 5 a side kick about. You don't get on the ball as a forward without working for it.
As I said before, if you ever followed "distance covered" on uefa match centre, you would saw that Fergie lied. Berba was almost always player who covered less pitch then our any other player.
No, I am talking about distance they cover by game, that has nothing to do with pace.
I am saving my face, and you are saying Berbatov worked his backside off, eventough that happened probably twice in his career.
I'll stop it here, because arguing with person who is watching Berba for probably about five years or more and is saying he isn't lazy makes me idiot. If you haven't realise that in those five years or more, I don't know how would I prove that to you.
Some interesting arguments put forward. I would recommend to people before making general comments to actually watch the full match from yesterday and I mean, watch it, not glance up at the TV screen when the commentator raises their voice.
Berba played behind Rodallega, as a 'number 10', he did an excellent job distributing the ball and creating attacks. True, he missed a couple of chances and should have scored from the on-on-one with Krul.
And to the people who are saying he did not run, or press or work hard yesterday, watch the match.
Berba played behind Rodallega, as a 'number 10', he did an excellent job distributing the ball and creating attacks. True, he missed a couple of chances and should have scored from the on-on-one with Krul.
And to the people who are saying he did not run, or press or work hard yesterday, watch the match.
He was in his element with freedom to do whatever he likes, which tended to be drop deep and link up with teammates. Played very well, missed 3 good chances if you count the 1 he should have taken with his left foot but quite predictably took with his right foot and poorly.
Meanwhile RVP continues to do what you'd expect from a big signing striker in his prime.
As for the lazyness argument, its more than about who runs the greatest distance.
Berbatov travelling distance is a no brainer because he goes from where he starts up front, dropping all the way back to the half way line to get involved in team play. If anyone thinks he's sprinting at 100% speed to do this they are insane. He just casually moves back to get on the ball and theres nothing wrong with that, but thats why hes always going to cover plenty of ground. Pretty much all of it is going to be in a thick line down the middle of the pitch though. He didnt run a channel with us.
Instead, what you'd generally expect from a striker at a decent club is for their strikers to chase lost causes, to pull wide and create space for others in middle and pull the defenders out of position. You'd expect pressure on the defence from closing down and a lot of runs behind the defence to stretch them and again create space for the players playing behind them. This is where Berbatov definitely did not do as much as you'd expect at United. Over time he definitely improved his ethic of trying to help get a tackle or two in but unfortunately with his average pace it wasnt particularly effective compared to all our other strikers who could put people under pressure sooner. But marks to him for trying to improve that area.
The most dissappointing part was the lack of a willingness to make runs in behind the defence. This is something I saw him do from match to match at Spurs, even in his last season when he was throwing his toys out of the pram because he didnt want to be there. He'd still make sure to at least once, dart behind the defence and look to bring the ball down with his first touch and in doing so created plenty of room behind him for the likes of Keane. At United this completely went out of his game and is one of many reasons why the combination with Rooney didnt work.
Meanwhile RVP continues to do what you'd expect from a big signing striker in his prime.
As for the lazyness argument, its more than about who runs the greatest distance.
Berbatov travelling distance is a no brainer because he goes from where he starts up front, dropping all the way back to the half way line to get involved in team play. If anyone thinks he's sprinting at 100% speed to do this they are insane. He just casually moves back to get on the ball and theres nothing wrong with that, but thats why hes always going to cover plenty of ground. Pretty much all of it is going to be in a thick line down the middle of the pitch though. He didnt run a channel with us.
Instead, what you'd generally expect from a striker at a decent club is for their strikers to chase lost causes, to pull wide and create space for others in middle and pull the defenders out of position. You'd expect pressure on the defence from closing down and a lot of runs behind the defence to stretch them and again create space for the players playing behind them. This is where Berbatov definitely did not do as much as you'd expect at United. Over time he definitely improved his ethic of trying to help get a tackle or two in but unfortunately with his average pace it wasnt particularly effective compared to all our other strikers who could put people under pressure sooner. But marks to him for trying to improve that area.
The most dissappointing part was the lack of a willingness to make runs in behind the defence. This is something I saw him do from match to match at Spurs, even in his last season when he was throwing his toys out of the pram because he didnt want to be there. He'd still make sure to at least once, dart behind the defence and look to bring the ball down with his first touch and in doing so created plenty of room behind him for the likes of Keane. At United this completely went out of his game and is one of many reasons why the combination with Rooney didnt work.
Haven't seen the game but I've seen Gary Neville's analysis and he was waxing lyrical about him.
Ekeke
He is one form of forward. Rooney is another, as is Hernandez.
He was not a young prospect when Fergie spent £30million on him, so he knew what he was buying.
If he was ever as bad as you are trying to make out, then Fergie should've been committed for that buy!
In 2010-11 hes scored 20 league goals, to top the charts, and then was dropped (after 32 games)
He scored 48 in 77 for his country, yet still can't get any credit from some in this forum.
He is one form of forward. Rooney is another, as is Hernandez.
He was not a young prospect when Fergie spent £30million on him, so he knew what he was buying.
If he was ever as bad as you are trying to make out, then Fergie should've been committed for that buy!
In 2010-11 hes scored 20 league goals, to top the charts, and then was dropped (after 32 games)
He scored 48 in 77 for his country, yet still can't get any credit from some in this forum.
Ekeke has just pointed out the obvious flaw in Berba's game, the same flaw that's resulted in him not being here still. I don't think he's running him down as you suggest.
He does get credit. He is an exceptionally talented player who delights fans with his technique.
Unfortunately he shrank on the biggest of stages. It happens to many a player, that is why he didn't make it here.
No controversy.
Agreed. I think this was the most telling indication that he couldn't really handle the step up in playing for United as far as dealing with pressure goes (whether that be from team mates, manager, fans, expectation, etc). Was not a failure by any means, but he just didn't look he wanted to be the difference maker as much as he did when he played for Spurs.
Van Persie's become what Ferguson thought he would get from Berbatov.
Hence the presence of the word "some".
Perhaps I should phrase it, that his negatives can be overstated.
He is not a player who thrives off crosses into the box. He is a no.10 and was playing in the same side as Rooney.
I've covered this subject far too much in the past, to get dragged into it again, so I'll bow out here.
As I said before, if you ever followed "distance covered" on uefa match centre, you would saw that Fergie lied. Berba was almost always player who covered less pitch then our any other player.
No, I am talking about distance they cover by game, that has nothing to do with pace.
I am saving my face, and you are saying Berbatov worked his backside off, eventough that happened probably twice in his career.
I'll stop it here, because arguing with person who is watching Berba for probably about five years or more and is saying he isn't lazy makes me idiot. If you haven't realise that in those five years or more, I don't know how would I prove that to you.
No SAF didn't lie, you are lying. When the stats for distance covered were displayed during CL games, there were usually comments of surprise of how far Berbatov covered.
If SAF is lying, do you think Rio was also lying, when he said this?:
"When you look at the statistics you can see he is one of the hardest runners in our team and that he covers the most ground.
"He is a bit languid, but he really puts the effort in. At the training ground, he is always in the gym. It's just his style of play, which means people see a different side to him. But I don't think that it actually reflects his importance to the team. He is appreciated by us and that is the most important thing,"
Were Prozone stats making it up?:
"At one point in the season Berbatov was ranked ninth in terms of distance covered. By the end of season he was ranked fourth,"
You specifically stated you are talking about distance covered, yet people with access to the information such as Rio, SAF and Prozone prove you are wrong, yet you still argue. It's pointless having a debate with someone like you, as even when strong evidence is produced to show you are wrong, you will still continue to argue. It's not as if you have to admit you are wrong. You should at least say that perhaps in the future you'll watch more carefully and consider reviewing your opinion based on this. We know from yesterdays game you aren't very observant, given what you said about him not pressing, despite the fat one of his best opportunities (his chance when he broke on 29th min) came as a result of his pressing.
To be fair your own Prozone stat says that at one stage he was 9th in distance covered, so Amar isn't exactly making it up is he?
Completely different players though. He knew the style he was getting with Berbatov. A forward like Anelka or Torres would have been the ideal signing back in 2008. A forward with pace and finishing ability to allow Rooney that free role he covets.
We always have much more than 9 players in our squad, so even when he was 9th, he was still easily average. If he was 20th, then Amar would have a point. But Amar was saying that during CL games his distance covered was nearly always the least, which is total BS. That was the lie.
Pro Zone stats. They take distance covered during the season and divide by the time on the pitch. Apparently Berbatov averaged 112 meters per minute, whilst Tevez covered 111 meters per minute played. Tevez would run at a higher intensity no doubt, but the argument with Amar is about distance covered.
Berba does such a great job linking up the play, then pretty much wastes it by now getting into the box. Once he lays off the pass he just starts walking!.
It's not that he does not "work hard", he just lacks the real desire to be a top goal scorer.
There was a point last night when they had a chance to counter attack 3v3 and Berba had the ball, he played the pass and then just stood there while the others ran off, and they eventually got doubled and closed down.
If only he kept his runs into the box and worked as hard to score as he did retaining possession, he would be a top top striker.
It's funny that in pre season he looked amazing behind 2 strikers in a 4-3-1-2 formation.
He is more totti then inzaghi
It's not that he does not "work hard", he just lacks the real desire to be a top goal scorer.
There was a point last night when they had a chance to counter attack 3v3 and Berba had the ball, he played the pass and then just stood there while the others ran off, and they eventually got doubled and closed down.
If only he kept his runs into the box and worked as hard to score as he did retaining possession, he would be a top top striker.
It's funny that in pre season he looked amazing behind 2 strikers in a 4-3-1-2 formation.
He is more totti then inzaghi
I'd be interested to see some other figures. I don't think these are particularly helpful as he barely played any Champions League football and when he did it was as a fresh sub for a short period of time. Even then he was 9th at one stage, pretty low for a striker.
Then there was the Bulgaria game against Italy, where the manager confirmed he only ran 2000m all game.
So there is plenty of reason for Amar to question Berbatov on the ground he covers, even if it has improved.
Those were Premier League figures based over the whole season, not just one off games. For the whole 2008/9 season, he averaged the 4th highest distance of any of our players. You don't average the 4th highest at a club like Utd for an entire season without covering some serious ground. People can doubt the intensity of his work if they want, but as Rio and SAF are both keen to point out, he covers the ground, there is no doubt about it.
9th isn't low for a striker. The players that run furthest come from all positions other than CB and GK. EA sports reviewed some matches and the players running furthest on that particular weekend came from FB, CM, wide players and strikers.
http://www.friendsoffulham.com/forum/index.php?topic=11405.0
redmeister has absolutely torn Amar's argument to shreds. Completely and utterly.
According to the article, Andrew 'Andy' Carroll was clocked the fastest for Liverpool. I call bollocks, absolutely no bloody way.
We are talking about The Languid One in this thread. Screw Carroll. Fastest for Liverpool? No way. Anyways, have never liked the football Kid Rock. Overhyped.
Yeah, great arguments, Berbatov was obviously player who was ranked as fourth in distance covered in team that had players like Tevez, Rooney, Fletcher, Carrick or Evra who never stop running.
Yeah, I don't know how it would be possible for Berbatov to cover so much ground in comparison to such hard working players. The stat surely can't be right. I also think that ground covered isn't always a fair reflection of work rate, intensity should also be considered. Sprinting and running a distance is a lot different to a casual jog. It takes far more energy to run a pitch than it does to walk it.
I'm with others and have to doubt the figures because they betray my eyes. Just looking at United in that article lone, Fabio our slowest player and Smalling the fastest? No way.
Now the stats are wrong too? Some people make up their minds and refuse to change them. At least have an open mind.
Now the stats are wrong too? Some people make up their minds and refuse to change them. At least have an open mind.
Would you say Fabio is our slowest player?
I refuse to believe that Andy Reid wasn't the slowest player at Blackpool that season
Probably not, but we don't know if this is top speed after how many meters etc. I was just saying that throwing out stats you disagree with is silly, as the same people oft use stats to substantiate other points.
I would have no problem believing Smalling is our fastest player though.
So it's ok for you to doubt the Fabio stat, but not ok for me to question the Berb stat. Ok then.
That article just shows the stats for a particular game over one Prem weekend. The speeds a player reaches is entirely situation dependent. The top speeds mentioned often aren't anywhere near the speeds players are capable of. It takes 20 or 30 meters for players to reach top speed and it's not often a player needs to run at top speed for that long. So in many games a player wont get anywhere near his top speed. Hence often slower players clock quicker times than naturally faster players.
There is nothing wrong or dubious about those stats at all, it's just that the title of the article is terrible, as it suggests the stats demonstrate who are the fastest and slowest in each team. They don't do that, but merely demonstrate the top speed reached by each player over the course of a round of Prem games. Hence some slow players reached higher top speeds, than naturally fast players, as over a one off 90 minute game, player don't get an equal opportunity to really put their foot down over an extended distance in order to reach a decent top speed.
The only reason I posted it was to show you that the distance covered stats show that players from a variety of different positions run the furthest. If you look on the UEFA website it shows the same thing for the CL this season. The top 10 players who have covered the most distance are from a variety of different positions.
As someone who has no interest whatsoever in the actual argument here, those stats sound highly suspect.
Back to the real argument about Berbatovs work rate on Monday night. When speaking about the game, his manager, Martin Jol, who would have been watching him far more closely than any of his detractors and have had access to his pro zone stats said he might of "covered more ground than ever before."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yAuLoQwrqI
This just shows just how unreliable fan observation is. People might retort by saying that by Berba's standards that isn't much, but come off it. The stats suggest fans are poor judges, especially when they already hold preconceptions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yAuLoQwrqI
This just shows just how unreliable fan observation is. People might retort by saying that by Berba's standards that isn't much, but come off it. The stats suggest fans are poor judges, especially when they already hold preconceptions.