That's probably one misplaced pass, and that is probably the one that lad to our first goal.
Shinji Kagawa
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That's probably one misplaced pass, and that is probably the one that lad to our first goal.
I rate the lad very high. Wish him more playing time for Christmass
It's a good problem to have.I think Rooney would be more prone to frustration if he would spent most games on the left side but as long as there is enough freedom and interchanging like you said, it shouldn't be a pb to satisfy them all.
He is definitely a class above others in the middle as you can tell. The question is can he play well with Rooney and RVP in the team.
I'm guessing yes.
In fairness, I thought that earlier in the season too. The similar thing happened with Park.
I think it has something to do with the overly physical nature of the English game that they need time to adjust to. I saw him in early season and I thought he was amazing. But after a few premiership games, I thought the physical nature of our game was beginning to weaken him.
A three of Nani, Kagawa and Rooney behind Van Persie just offers so little real width, especially on the left. Nani can play that way but he drifts and cuts inside more than Valencia who I think is needed to balance that attack out. We'd be way too narrow with that IMO, though we haven't seen it yet so could be wrong.
Don't get the Caf's obsession with having a front four that can change positions.. Why is that something we should be aiming for? I get the attraction in having a deeper striker who can rotate with the advanced one, so like Rooney and RVP, but having our wingers coming inside all the time would be ridiculous. Having a rotating front 4 sounds much better than it would actually work I think.
City play that way and it can make them look absolutely woeful despite having an incredible squad, the most common gripe City fans seem to have is the lack of width in the team. With Tevez, Nasri and Silva playing behind Aguero they get bogged down in the middle and when you watch them it's clear they need someone to stretch the game, normally ends up having to be the fullbacks, but if the oppo winger can pin them back they just look clueless. Neville did a good analysis of it early on in the season and there's definitely some truth to it.
97% pass rate is amazing. Set up the first goal with a deft flick to young and I lost count of how many nice moves he was at the centre of.
Well theon your post is based on assumptions so I would relax on some of your points there. I doubt our wingers would drift inside all the time. Nani actually has the propensity to stay wide. He doesn't always drift it's something he definitely likes to do. But you see the impact it has when he does drift inside like his goal against Spurs.
Let's just wait until we see how it fares before jumping to conclusions.
I see your point about width but our problem with the formations and tactics we've used thus far lends to either over-emphasizing the wide play or simply being too narrow. I think we can find a happy medium in a 4-3-3 with wide forwards which Sir Alex has yet to use
Let's just wait until we see how it fares before jumping to conclusions.
I see your point about width but our problem with the formations and tactics we've used thus far lends to either over-emphasizing the wide play or simply being too narrow. I think we can find a happy medium in a 4-3-3 with wide forwards which Sir Alex has yet to use
Wut?
I said Nani can play wide, read the post. He comes inside way more than Valencia though, which is the point. If you have Rooney playing on the left then there is feck all width there, so I think Valencia is needed on the right to balance that out. With Nani, RVP, Rooney and Kagawa it is a very narrow front four.
Not sure what you are on about by saying it's based on assumptions or jumping to conclusions. I mean no fecking shit, of course it is. In the same way you saying it would work is based on an assumption. Until we actually play it then we can't be sure, which I actually said in my post.
I'm not sure what his role was today. He seemed to press high, but have to drop deep to receive the ball. At times it was a midfield three and Cleverley would run beyond him to give him an option going forward. It was all a bit slow really, you would think he was a languid player but he has quick feet and the ability to skip past players. Understandably the tempo wasn't very high today. Solid game time in preparation to play again in a few days.
Delighted to have him back. I fear I am a bit of a 'fanboi'. I always want our players to pass to him and get excited when he's on the ball, similar to Hernandez' first season with us really.
Nar mate. Rooney can play wide and does offer width. Whenever he has, he likes to drift and get on the ball. Kagawa offers width as well. I never said it would work. Basically saying it's something we should try before getting our knickers into a twist about it.
I just disagree that it would be very narrow simply because you're making assumptions on their tendencies. Based on how I've seen both Kagawa and Nani play, I know they can stay wide when they need to
I don't think we need Valencia there to balance it out. You do. I dont even think we need to play Young. Until we play it, we'll never really know for sure though. Your tone surprised me as you seemed so certain about a setup we haven't even tried in a full match.
Hold on. We did try it. But it was short-lived as Kagawa was substituted. It was against Spurs at home and we didn't look overly narrow.
As we have both said, we'll have to wait and see how it fares in a full match.
He's so classy. Looks effortless when he runs with and without the ball making space for himself and others. One of those players in which the whole team looks better when they're playing well which is vital at a club like United. You already had Rooney who had that role and now you have RVP and Kagawa to add to that list.
Right well this is getting off track now and nobody wants to read this shit. I don't think it would work as a long term solution because it's a narrow setup, if you do that's fine but you have no more to go off than I do.
I wasn't certain like you are making out when I even said "we haven't seen it yet so could be wrong."
Fair enough mate. I think you're making too much of how narrow it is considering we haven't tried it in a full match. We'll have to wait and see.
I said your tone made it seem as if you were certain. No worries though. Until next time, cheers.
I said your tone made it seem as if you were certain. No worries though. Until next time, cheers.
Spot on.
Yeah fair enough, if it came across that way then it wasn't meant to. Maybe it could work, but I think it would be very narrow. Even when Young plays on the left we lack width there sometimes, same with Welbeck early on in the season. If anything Rooney would be even more prone to coming inside.
A narrow 4-2-3-1 can work though, I mean City won the league last year and generally played good football, Chelsea as well have looked narrow when Oscar, Hazard and Mata all play but they have played some great stuff. So I'm not saying it would be a disaster, but I wouldn't want us to go down that route. Under Ferguson what has set us apart so often is our width so wouldn't want to abandon that. Plus I watch City all the time and have a few City mates and they really struggle at times for being too narrow, it's a common criticism of them and with those three I think we'd be prone to the same issues.
A narrow 4-2-3-1 can work though, I mean City won the league last year and generally played good football, Chelsea as well have looked narrow when Oscar, Hazard and Mata all play but they have played some great stuff. So I'm not saying it would be a disaster, but I wouldn't want us to go down that route. Under Ferguson what has set us apart so often is our width so wouldn't want to abandon that. Plus I watch City all the time and have a few City mates and they really struggle at times for being too narrow, it's a common criticism of them and with those three I think we'd be prone to the same issues.
Which is where the full backs come in. This is the point. Having more players centrally gives better control and is more conducive to short sharp passing. Which is what you see from most of the top sides nowadays.
It doesn't have to be a front 4 who rotates. RVP can stay where he is, but the 3 behind him have the option to move freely into areas to find space.
City actually don't play that way. They play 2 strikers far more often than a 4-2-3-1. City's problem is they have absolutely no width whatsoever. Our is we depend too much on width which leaves us over stretched and our midfielders too far apart. If City want to improve they need more width, and by the same logic we need less. When we have less width there are more players in close proximity centrally and we are less exposed and therefore more solid defensively.
What Plato is suggesting is that we have the players to take advantage of both styles. We have players who provide width, and players who can operate wide but more suited centrally. Our problem is we mostly only use a system that favours wide men, and try to fit our central players around that. Rather than even occasionally employing a system that enables us to play closer together, and offer more control. We now have better players centrally than we do out wide. We should surely find an alternative system that allows us to take advantage of that.
Edit: Sorry Theon, had to do this post in 2 halves! My baby woke up, and i didn't see your reply to Plato, before finishing it off.
Aha no worries, hope the baby is good man.
With your first point on the FB's I agree they could be utilised to provide width. I was a pretty big advocate of the diamond and the whole premise of that revolved around the FB's getting forward, in my mind that was the key to it working. But the difference for me is that in the diamond you have the added protection of the defensive midfielder sitting in front of the centre backs. Whereas here we only have 2 CM's in the above formation, there is three in the diamond so that justifies the FB's really pushing on. If they did it to the same extent in a formation with two midfielders then we would be exposed IMO. With just two CB's, as opposed to Juve for example, and just two CM's, one of which isn't even particularly defensive in Anderson or Cleverley then the fullbacks can't be too offensively minded.
City do play that way mate, you are right that they play two strikers but one of them always drops a bit deeper in the way that Rooney does for us. One of the reasons people like Tevez partnering Aguero is that it allows him to go up top instead of being the one behind Dzeko where he is constantly dropping off.
With your last paragraph I know what you are saying, believe me I know we have to utilise our best players, it's just the way to do it which is difficult. I liked the diamond for the reasons you say, but Fergie doesn't seem to fully trust it. The 4-2-3-1 though doesn't appeal and I don't think it will get the best out of Rooney. If Nani stuck out wide or we played Valencia then maybe it would work because it would balance out the narrowness on the left, but you still have the issue of Rooney or Kagawa being out of position.
With your first point on the FB's I agree they could be utilised to provide width. I was a pretty big advocate of the diamond and the whole premise of that revolved around the FB's getting forward, in my mind that was the key to it working. But the difference for me is that in the diamond you have the added protection of the defensive midfielder sitting in front of the centre backs. Whereas here we only have 2 CM's in the above formation, there is three in the diamond so that justifies the FB's really pushing on. If they did it to the same extent in a formation with two midfielders then we would be exposed IMO. With just two CB's, as opposed to Juve for example, and just two CM's, one of which isn't even particularly defensive in Anderson or Cleverley then the fullbacks can't be too offensively minded.
City do play that way mate, you are right that they play two strikers but one of them always drops a bit deeper in the way that Rooney does for us. One of the reasons people like Tevez partnering Aguero is that it allows him to go up top instead of being the one behind Dzeko where he is constantly dropping off.
With your last paragraph I know what you are saying, believe me I know we have to utilise our best players, it's just the way to do it which is difficult. I liked the diamond for the reasons you say, but Fergie doesn't seem to fully trust it. The 4-2-3-1 though doesn't appeal and I don't think it will get the best out of Rooney. If Nani stuck out wide or we played Valencia then maybe it would work because it would balance out the narrowness on the left, but you still have the issue of Rooney or Kagawa being out of position.
The part where he did like a 360 degree spin and bamboozled the defender was orgasmic.
Such a nice footballer to watch, has a touch of the berbs about him, but he works his absolute socks off.
He and welbeck were quite a nice pair in the first half, their defending from the front made a big difference.
Such a nice footballer to watch, has a touch of the berbs about him, but he works his absolute socks off.
He and welbeck were quite a nice pair in the first half, their defending from the front made a big difference.
Even Fergie noticed this. Kagawa gave an interview a month or so saying Fergie told him turn and face the goal a bit more.
I think he's just used to how he played at Dortmund. He would often have his back to goal, but create chances by playing little quick one twos, flicks or balls around the corner.
I hate to pull this card, but I don't think Barca care about width. These days it's about control and support.
I was a big fan of Kagawa before he came here. I think he's what Fergie wanted Anderson to be before he tried making him into a deeper play maker.
Kagawa thrives in small spaces and already knows plays two passes ahead of everyone. Look at his movement, most of our players aren't aware of the great spaces he creates for himself.
I think he can play in a 4-3-3 out wide or the tip of the three. But he has to get used to physicality and we must find a player like Fletcher used to be. An energetic destroyer with decent passing.
We missed the boat on that, Moussa Dembele was the player we should have signed. He had everything we needed IMO.
Good point. It happened quite a few times today where he finds space only for his team mates to not notice, Cleverley seems to have a good understanding with him though. It does seem that he plays with his back to goal just a bit too much though.
Aye mate. I get what you're saying. Your concerns are valid. However, as long as SAF is here, we won't completely abandon the wide game. For me, I'd like us to at least try a different option. The diamond is a decent alternative but until we use it more, it will remain to be too much of an extreme in the other direction. Hence why I favor more of a 4-3-3 with wide forwards (slightly similar to how we played against Bayern).
It's the type of sentiment I have repeatedly criticized. Almost everytime we talk about using something other than our wide game, someone gets the idea that we're abandoning using wingers altogether. That just won't happen while SAF is here.
Maybe the next manager might but I would speculate he would change the team's mindset enough to where we would have more success playing more narrow.
At the end of the day, I just want us to be comfortable using it. Looking at the players we have, I think on certain occasions, playing a bit more narrow could suit us better.
Agree with both points. In the second half, I was screaming at the TV when our players failed to find Shinji when he was WIDE open. It says alot about how good Kagawa is that he shows some semblance of his class after being out for two months.
It's only going to get better from here. Only issue is when both him and Rooney are fit. My guess is Kagawa will play wide left in that situation.
That's probably true. Sadly, however, it won't be because Rooney's a better central player than Kagawa (he isn't). The likelihood is Kagawa will make way in the centre because Rooney's game suffers far more than Kagawa's in the wide left position.
I still want to see, at least once, a 4321 with Rooney and Kagawa both 'central'. It lacks wingers, but I don't think it would lack width. At the moment, anyway, wingers aren't helping our football. The players themselves are out of form, and the urge to pass to them by default is taking all threat out of our very capable central spine.
I couldn't agree more with this, mate. Kagawa got himself into so many good central positions today, yet most of the time the ball is just booted out wide to a deeply out of form Valencia.
I really hope that more of our players start to come to terms with Kagawa's movement and ability. It's a real shame at times, and I think that Kagawa mentioned it himself a while back.
And it's not just Kagawa. Rooney, RVP, Anderson, Cleverley, Welbeck: they can all play and shoot through the middle, but they either don't attempt it or aren't given the chance to do it, because it's like as soon as we reach the edge of the opposition's box the default decision is to lay it wide for Valencia. Sometimes it's worth turning and passing it back, making another run and having another go, rather than just going wide 'because it at least guarantees a cross in'. Our crossers aren't in form, and we don't have the personnel to profit from crosses anyway.
Would be worth a try. I'm tired of seeing Young and Valencia make spastic decisions. They're good wingers but part of me feels if we played differently, we'd see a higher quality of football.
On form, we'd look great with Valencia and Young. Even then, I think we could produce our best quality of football with what you suggested Brightonian. Agree with your points there. It all gets back to adding dynamism to our attack which we still haven't done to the extent I thought we would.
On form, we'd look great with Valencia and Young. Even then, I think we could produce our best quality of football with what you suggested Brightonian. Agree with your points there. It all gets back to adding dynamism to our attack which we still haven't done to the extent I thought we would.
He obviously tired in the second half, and had a decent first half, but you can just tell he has something very special. He's very nimble and turns defenders when he has his back to them so quickly. He also opens the entire pitch for us when in possession because he is equally comfortable on both feet.
While we obviously don't want to mire him too deeply in the middle of the park, it's also a real bonus that he drops deep to collect the ball from our midfielders and initiates attacks. Also provides support when we don't have the ball. The future is surely a fluid three in behind RvP, with the likes of Kagawa, Rooney and (hopefully Nani) interchanging.
You feel that Kagawa and Rooney will be vital in our efforts against Real Madrid, in terms of supporting Cleverley and Carrick when we don't have the ball.
While we obviously don't want to mire him too deeply in the middle of the park, it's also a real bonus that he drops deep to collect the ball from our midfielders and initiates attacks. Also provides support when we don't have the ball. The future is surely a fluid three in behind RvP, with the likes of Kagawa, Rooney and (hopefully Nani) interchanging.
You feel that Kagawa and Rooney will be vital in our efforts against Real Madrid, in terms of supporting Cleverley and Carrick when we don't have the ball.
Can't wait until he's fully fit, it will be a huge boost to get him in the team for the second half of the season. I just hope we use him properly we tend to always play the ball out wide and bypass his position rather than going through the middle.
100% agreement with you here FM. He's such a wonderful player. I was fully over the moon that we signed him and he's showed here and there that he's gonna be a crucial piece to our general play. Have to say he complemented Cleverley and Carrick yesterday, so that's also a plus.
Yup, me neither. I'm hoping to see Ando with them, but maybe if Nani comes back in good form he could bring some width.
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