A people's Revolution

holyland red said:
Still a ray of light there, as both sides identify the root of the problem.
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4398346,00.html


Report: Morsi taken to Presidential Guard's headquarters


Report: Morsi taken to Presidential Guard's headquarters
Ahead of mass protests, Egyptian paper reports president, family moved from their Cairo home. Death toll rises to 7 after bomb explodes in Port Said protest
Roi Kais
Published: 06.29.13, 12:01 / Israel News


The Egyptian newspaper Al-Masri Al-Youm reported on Saturday that Mohamed Morsi and his family were moved on Thursday from their home to the Presidential Guard headquarters in Cairo.

...According to Al-Masri Al-Youm, the Cairo flag burning was intended to protest what they termed "the American and Zionist interference in Egypt's affair."

Due to the escalating violence in the streets, the US State Department issued a travel warning to its citizens, calling them to avoid entering the country except on vital cases.

The US also confirmed the death of an American citizen in clashes in Alexandria: Andrew Pochter, a 21-year-old student from Chevy Chase, Maryland who had been working as an intern for the US organization AMIDEAST, an NGO which deals with education in the Middle East and northern Africa.
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Seriously, do these retards have any hope as long as everything that is wrong with their backward society is blamed on the US and "the Zionists"?
 
Muslim Brotherhood HQ in Cairo attacked by angry mobs - so where is this grassroots MB youth network?

Their party HQ in Cairo is being attacked and they are MIA - scared? Disenchanted with Morsi? Planning their own revenge attacks?
 
Not sure where they're going, or want to go. They're either stuck with their deomcratic choice for three more years, or even worse, violently overthrow an elected president every 12 months for failure of overseeing a centuries-long gap from half-modern societies.
 
What are the main complaints against Morsi?

I know there is a concern regarding a level 'Islamisation' that he did not have a mandate for, but what did people expect when they voted for the Brotherhood?

Morsi is the legitimate democratically elected head of Egypt and I think it's dangerous for Egyptians to be calling for his removal, unless he has severely overstepped the mark, and even then there should be caution. It'll undermine future presidents/governments. I'm surprised that the military still has the power to issue these kind of ultimatums. Has nobody told them that they are now operating in a democracy? Morsi should sack the generals.
 
Worst moments of my life.. Civil war or mini-civil war ensuing.
 
rednev said:
What are the main complaints against Morsi?

I know there is a concern regarding a level 'Islamisation' that he did not have a mandate for, but what did people expect when they voted for the Brotherhood?

Morsi is the legitimate democratically elected head of Egypt and I think it's dangerous for Egyptians to be calling for his removal, unless he has severely overstepped the mark, and even then there should be caution. It'll undermine future presidents/governments. I'm surprised that the military still has the power to issue these kind of ultimatums. Has nobody told them that they are now operating in a democracy? Morsi should sack the generals.
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All that makes sense but the the issue is that if he makes too many radical changes, it may be impossible for Egypt to ever go back. If some American President along with elected Congress and Senate, started to dilute their constitution, I am sure there would be upheaval in America as well despite all those institutions being democratically elected.
 
Muslim Brotherhood members telling BBC reporters are their willingness to die alongside Morsi for what they believe in.
 
rednev said:
What are the main complaints against Morsi?

I know there is a concern regarding a level 'Islamisation' that he did not have a mandate for, but what did people expect when they voted for the Brotherhood?

Morsi is the legitimate democratically elected head of Egypt and I think it's dangerous for Egyptians to be calling for his removal, unless he has severely overstepped the mark, and even then there should be caution. It'll undermine future presidents/governments. I'm surprised that the military still has the power to issue these kind of ultimatums. Has nobody told them that they are now operating in a democracy? Morsi should sack the generals.
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It's very dangerous indeed. I'm no fan of Morsi, but for better or for worse he is the democratically elected president. The military going in and presenting an ultimatum that essentially amounts to a coup d'état isn't going to make the situation any better.
 
rednev said:
What are the main complaints against Morsi?

I know there is a concern regarding a level 'Islamisation' that he did not have a mandate for, but what did people expect when they voted for the Brotherhood?

Morsi is the legitimate democratically elected head of Egypt and I think it's dangerous for Egyptians to be calling for his removal, unless he has severely overstepped the mark, and even then there should be caution. It'll undermine future presidents/governments. I'm surprised that the military still has the power to issue these kind of ultimatums. Has nobody told them that they are now operating in a democracy? Morsi should sack the generals.
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The supporters of the President say he has been hampered by many of the government agencies, officials, etc that he inherited, many of them very corrupt. the other side says he has done enough that they do not want him around until the next election.

The thing who has a better right to call for his removal other then the very people who voted him into office? It may be dangerous but it is their right. It may undermine future governments it may also keep future governments on their toes. Of course it is not like everyone in Egypt voted for him, just like not everyone in the US votes for the person who becomes President every 4 years.

At this point firing the Generals would not do Morsi much good, they seem to be acting already. The next President will have to consider how to handle the military. Firing the Generals is one option, but will their replacements be any better? It comes down to which side you are on, Morsi supporters will see a coup, Morsi opposition will see the military enforcing the will of the people.

Dangerous times in Egypt for sure.
 
Is this one big outdoor club they have going on here or something? Because that's what it looks like on tv.
 
I was against ousting him a month ago despite hating him with passion. The reasons for not wanting him is obvious. I wrote a blog post about that . But I changed my stance and let me give u a very very brief summary of the previous disastrous months.

N.B: Egypt doesn't have a manual. What i've seen in the past 2 years defies political science !! I bet for example that some of you are shocked how come civilians call for the army for example . Well, it doesn't surprise me a bit, not a bit.

Now here's the summary which was a reply to Ed Hussain article earlier on cnn about giving Morsy a second chance


You're just as gullible as we were in Egypt. We used to believe the MB as well despite breaking their promises 100 times !! They are masters in sweet talking. Forget everything, forget the economy. Forget the "deep state" conspiracies which are true. Let's focus on just few points:
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1) Morsy's decree in Nov22. was a dictatorial one. Sweeping powers , impunity from Judiciary oversight = dictatorship. He lost all legitimacy back then. Legitimacy is not just the ballot box, you know that.
2) Constitutions are consensual not majoritarian as you know as well. That wasn't the case with ours in Egypt.
3) Morsy's and the MB's main tactic to counter the opposition for months was through sectarian speeches and threatening violence and terrorism through their cronies in the hardliner Gama'a islameyah including calling the opposition Infidels the last time of which was 8-9 days ago in a ceremony that Morsy attended. That is, the president of Egypt was on his seat listening to a "sheikh" who was praying against the infidels who will take it to the streets on June 30.
4) Yesterday, the president of Egypt called for violence in an indirect way, for a civil war for God's sake !! No matter what conspiracies are against you and how unfair the situation is, you don't incite a civil war , Live on National TV ever... EVER !!
5) The failures are a lot. A month ago , he discussed how to deal with the NIle water crisis on Tv with figures from " his opposition" where they talked about how they could sabotage the Ethiopian dam and plant spies and spread rumors to confuse Ethiopia. YES, that was LIVE on Air !! New levels of ineptness !! The president himself is a threat to our national security !!
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If you want more examples about the disaster that is Morsy/MB , I can go on. for example, cutting ties with Syria without going back to the National security council just to energize his salafi bas amid growing Egyptian discontent.

and of course, he polarized and divided the nation in an unprecedented way ..never has happened in 5000 years of history I think
 
I think considering the fervor that had developed against him over the past couple of months, the polarisation that had struck the country and the sheer numbers out against him over the past few days, he had to go. The cost of him staying on was astronomical.

Then again, the cost of him leaving may be astronomical. Whatever happens now, its done. The army and the opposition need to make sure they keep the MB and the other groups within the political fold. There have been wild rumours all day of them being held in house arrest, travel bans being put against them etc etc. Now the army/ police just went to close down their 3 main tv channels.

Now, they can be incitors of violence for sure but to do this so early after what's happened? You push them too far into a corner and there will only be one outcome. No revenge taking. No punishment. No crackdowns. Only a re-entry into the political fold and attempts at national reconciliation. Otherwise only one response from the Islamists will be available to them.
 
rednev said:
What are the main complaints against Morsi?

I know there is a concern regarding a level 'Islamisation' that he did not have a mandate for, but what did people expect when they voted for the Brotherhood?

Morsi is the legitimate democratically elected head of Egypt and I think it's dangerous for Egyptians to be calling for his removal, unless he has severely overstepped the mark, and even then there should be caution. It'll undermine future presidents/governments. I'm surprised that the military still has the power to issue these kind of ultimatums. Has nobody told them that they are now operating in a democracy? Morsi should sack the generals.
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Thing is, half of the people who voted for Morsi did so in the 2nd round, when he had promised to be the ruler of all Egyptians, when he had moved on from the Islamic talk to talk of a civil state, when he had made certain promises to revolutionary/ secular groups about how he'd govern.

Things like not appointing a female/ copt vice president didn't help his case. But it was in November, when he pushed through the Islamists' constitution, that a lot of people turned against him for good.

For a lot of those people out there however, they're just fed up with broke promises and lies from the MB, and a worsening quality of life. As El-Baradei says, you can't eat sharia. When your popuation is comfortable, then you can pitch sharia to them. When they're not? It won't fly.

Like I said, I really hope though they try to keep the MB in the political fold. 80 years of persecution, torture and death hasn't exactly made them the most open of groups and they're paranoid at the best of times. Arrests and cracking down on their journalists will only add to their martyrdom complex.

And I also hope that people celebrating out there now for the military don't forget their crimes from the last time and don't allow them an inch.



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b52926f2-e408-11e2-b35b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2Y16yqdqy
 
How exactly did he incite for civil war Avatar? And under what context? Just curious...
 
Its also worth noting that by the end, even the Salafi Nour party and al-Gamaa al Islamiya were calling on Morsi to call for early elections to prevent civil war.
 
complete joke. Democracy is dead in Egypt. Civil war it is.
what was the highest objection about morsi? Moving from dictator to democracy is never easy.
 
The Al Jazeera TV channel in Egypt has been raided by the military and taken off air. Not a good sign.
 
Commadus said:
complete joke. Democracy is dead in Egypt. Civil war it is.
what was the highest objection about morsi? Moving from dictator to democracy is never easy.
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He was leading the country into a civil war, he has managed to alienate everyone, overstepped his powers several times, lied to his teeth and his performance overall was terrible.
 
So Masr25, the brotherhood channel, yesterday aired the addresses of multiple journalists they considered to be 'anti-MB'.

Al-Hafez, a Salafi (but not MB) channel has over the past few weeks, aired some rather choice shows. Points of discussion have included the role of monasteries in provoking violence, pope Tawadros inciting sectarianism and churches storing weapons, accusing Sawaris of aggravating the country's Christians as a US agent, imploring the introduction of sharia so that Christianity and Shiism could be ended in Egypt once and for all and complaining about the fact that the media focused on the death of those 4 Shias, without talking about their 'adultery' on Islam (effectively justifying it).

Perhaps it may have been best actually to not have these channels spreading sectarian nonsense over the next few days.
 
Yesterday were the worst moments of my whole life..literally.

His speech was an indirect threat to the people that if I'm ousted, the country will take the route of blood. he kept repeating it, like 10 times or so.

People here from all walks of life were terrified. heard many people screaming " we are not your hostages" and frankly speaking that's the feeling we all had. That he has kidnapped the country and we are his hostages.


This video is in Arabic, but watch for the guy's reaction following Morsy's speech. He almost had a heart attack or something.
You may laugh, but we weren't laughing yesterday. That was exactly our feelings. nothing of what you'll watch is exaggerated.

"
 
moses said:
What a mess. Confrontation is inevitable right?
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Not really, it all depends on how the MB want to go from here. So far they still have a place in the political game and still have enough followers to mount a serious challenge in any future elections, if they can find it within themselves to accept the current situation they'll survive this, and i think that's what the army would want as well. If they choose to keep fighting this it'll be a blood bath but they will inevitably lose everything.

At this moment in time i think they're still in shock but will come to terms with what's happening in a couple of days, some of the MB leaders are under arrest already but i hear that's just for stopping them from inciting violence.
 
Someone said:
He was leading the country into a civil war, he has managed to alienate everyone, overstepped his powers several times, lied to his teeth and his performance overall was terrible.
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like Obama then?
the correct avenue should be political not military.
 
Given the circumstances of Morsi and the MB's rise to power (quick elections, limited political infrastructure or institutions), I don't think the removal is that detrimental to the future of democracy in Egypt. I always thought that the push for immediate elections was a negative for Egypt. The MB said repeatedly throughout the protests and eventual revolution that they wouldn't run a candidate for president. Then, once Mubarak is gone, they stepped in and pushed for elections very soon after the fall of the previous regime.

In a "single party" country, it would have been better long-term for the military to stay in power for a longer time to allow for the development of political institutions outside of Mubarak's and the illicit Muslim Brotherhood. It was to the MB's distinct advantage to push for quick elections and the people, somewhat naively, wanted a swift end to the military rule that ensued following Mubarak's downfall. I can understand the desire, but from the outside, it seemed that the political fervor that spread following Mubarak's downfall would have been more beneficial if there had been time for the parties to develop and some political identity to develop.

His actions in November undermined what legitimacy he had. Basically, the Muslim Brotherhood's election was the result of obvious but clever political moves to capitalize on their pre-existing organization in the wake of the NDP's downfall. It's not that the election was illegitimate in terms of being rigged, but it was such that no other party could possibly win because of the short time period before it.

There are also major issues with the Egyptian constitution in terms of protection of minorities. Since the MB took over, they have run roughshod over everyone. Making changes while Morsi was still in power would have been impossible.
 
Saudi Arabia and UAE in support of the military actions. They really are obnoxious bunch. What do they know about real democracy.

The US/Israel are happy they didn't like the MB, I expect El baradei will worm his way into power.
 
Commadus said:
Saudi Arabia and UAE in support of the military actions. They really are obnoxious bunch. What do they know about real democracy.

The US/Israel are happy they didn't like the MB, I expect El baradei will worm his way into power.
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The US paved the MB road to power.

Israel isn't "happy" at all at this moment in time. In fact the potential chaos in Egypt is a major concern here because of the already growing influence of global jihadists in Sinai. A weak central administration in Cairo may not see exerting authority in Sinai as a top priority. Moreover, if there's anything that unites both sides of the current Egyptian political divide is the hatred towards Israel.

Sometimes things are not as simple as 1+1 internet exercises.
 
holyland red said:
The US paved the MB road to power.

Israel isn't "happy" at all at this moment in time. In fact the potential chaos in Egypt is a major concern here because of the already growing influence of global jihadists in Sinai. A weak central administration in Cairo may not see exerting authority in Sinai as a top priority. Moreover, if there's anything that unites both sides of the current Egyptian political divide is the hatred towards Israel.

Sometimes things are not as simple as 1+1 internet exercises.
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The US wanted the MB in power lol - get real. They just couldn't stop it at the time. The Army has always been the one factor on the side of the US due to its close relationships over a prolonged period mainly due to US military Aid.

The hatred towards Israel is always used as a political move to distract the populace from the current leaders failings and to legitimise their "islamic credentials". Israel is secure in its borders - the threat is always overplayed. Has Israel lost any land in the last 50 years?

Egypt will eventually get a constitution and pro western government. This will lead to deep seated resentment from the Islamic parties who were elected with the notion that democracy and getting involved in the political process is not an avenue they will venture down. This will just create more tension - many benefit from such tension. The cycle will continue.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
 
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