I think it's a bigger risk for Moyes to keep faith with Wayne than it would be to sell him. Just watch Rooney's on-field behaviour if we have a poor start, let alone his off-field undermining.
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
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You think that we never bent over backwards for Best? He was on much less money of course but if you seem the money's irrelevant when you're talking about principles. When we made Ronaldo the highest paid player in the club we did so on the provision that he'd be leaving within the next 18 months or so, and during that time his performance levels visibly dropped and he constantly flirted with his dream club. How exactly is that not bending over backwards in a bigger way? We gave into his demands, we accepted his behaviour and we paid him bucketloads...surely that's exactly the same? How good Rooney/Ronaldo are is irrelevant here as we're just talking about how the club have acted.
@ Brwned's selective history lessons.I can't comment on George best - but it was a different era when players and clubs were much less professional. As for Ronaldo I disagree. He notched a hatful of goals in his last two seasons, was United's stand out player at that time and left for a world record fee with the clubs blessing. The club wanted to keep him, couldnt do so - but it was nothing to do with money or form.
Rooney was irreplacable, and he got away with his last outburst, even ending up with a new deal. He's now severly misguided if he thinks the club need him as much as they did. He's not a kid anymore, seems intent on throwing a strop everytime things dont go his way and judging by his performances not the player he was.
I have no problem with a player wanting to be as well paid as other players of his standing - if and when they're doing the business on the pitch.
These "history lessons" will go away when someone explains why they aren't relevant. From my perspective they're entirely relevant and make a serious point in amongst all of the people intent on making mountains out of molehills and taking a negative viewpoint from every single "development".
Ronaldo in his last two seasons at the club: 68 goals, 18 assists in 93 starts
It's interesting how you come to the conclusion that Ronaldo notched a hatful of goals in that time but don't seem to feel Rooney's performed anywhere near well enough despite scoring at a better rate.
Rooney in his last two seasons: 50 goals, 18 assists in 71 starts
Ronaldo in his last two seasons at the club: 68 goals, 18 assists in 93 starts
It's interesting how you come to the conclusion that Ronaldo notched a hatful of goals in that time but don't seem to feel Rooney's performed anywhere near well enough despite scoring at a better rate.
When Rooney scored over 25 league goals last year for the second time in three years - a record no-one has beaten and one which only Henry and his current strike partner have matched in a 38-game season in the PL - he probably started negotiating for a new contract. His performances this season have then made this more difficult but presumably Rooney will be arguing that his relatively injury-hit season contributed to that and his performances in the 18 months previous - which were as good as we've seen - should be enough of an argument for him to deserve a further pay rise. Greedy of course and United have every reason to try and resist that attempt but ultimately them choosing to give him that contract really isn't this unbelievable decision.
He's not the first player to be difficult and have the club cater to them but he has done this twice in the space of just three years though, plus if you break it down to the tribal level of football the fact he's a chavvy scouser always sat uneasy with some and his actions and the arrival of RvP have simply removed the protective layer he had when he was our main player.
I don't have any problem with people wanting rid of Rooney because they're pissed off at how he's treated the club or because they simply don't like the man. I just don't agree with people who want to suggest that what he's doing is some sort of despicable act that we've never seen (and gotten over) before, or that it's something a true United legend would never do. These people still revere/adore Keane and Ronaldo despite their many indiscretions. I'm just providing a bit of perspective while leaving my opinion out of it. Likewise the idea that he has now been performing at a level that makes him easily replaceable based on last season's performances is absurd. No-one said the same about Ronaldo despite him playing just as poorly in his final year for the exact same reasons (injuries, a lack of focus and adjusting to a different role with a new forward in the team).
Best is my all time favourite player and hero. Rooneys actions in reality are tame compared with what Bestie got up to. I hope Rooney stays but if he leaves we will still survive and his actions really arent so heinous he should be hung drawn and quartered.
Of course. I guess I didn't give a hint in my post that I grasped that, so yeah fair enough. But - the real purpose of my post was to emphasize that if the club want to keep him, then it's because the club (Manchester-fecking-United of all clubs) want a player of his standard to stay. We read some pretty strong stuff about Rooney from every Tom, Dick and Harry - and some/most on here take it as gospel and use it as some ammunition to strengthen their hate for Rooney. I don't like that.
If Rooney's off-field situation was that bad, then we wouldn't have made a big deal about this. The club would have reacted to his request with "Yeah OK then - off you go. We'll let you know the clubs that are interested in you, OK? Good luck in the future!".
The club clearly rates Rooney - much higher than what some twats on this forum do. Some on here just wants to satisfy their needs of not needing to see Rooney in a United kit rather than understanding that he's a fecking good player that strengthens the team. If the club sell him, then the ones on here are probably right. If that turns out to be the case, I'll gladly admit that I'm wrong. But Rooney is most-definitely United quality, and in the top bracket of players in the league. We don't get rid of them unless they're a constant parasite, ala Suarez.
Does your perspective then consider 2013 to be similar culturally to Best's era? Or that offering a contract to Rooney in this instance represents a short term expedient along the lines of what took place with Ronaldo?
This context would be relevant to any historic comparison whether it be near or longer term in nature.
That you would suggest he has reasonable grounds for a pay rise, well we'll have to agree to disagree on that from the start.
Im sure he would, but what is to say next season wont be the same or worse.....he has said himself he can barely walk the morning after a match....that is only going to get worse as he gets older, added to the alleged issues with training and lifestyle its not unreasonable for the club to have concerns, we cannt have an increasingly injury prone player, especially one who can take a good while to find form after time out on a very generous salary.....and lets face it.....could you see rooney agreeing to a wage cut, or having his salary linked to appearances and performances? Admittedly it could also go the other way.........
It was clear from at least the year before Ronaldo wanted away - but he didnt twist, didnt moan and got on with the job. He achieved a great deal, remained (and seemingly remains) grateful to the club and left on the best possible terms. At the time he wanted a renewal to put him on par with the best players in the world, he deserved it, because he was doing the job and was one of, if not the best player in world football.
It also allowed United to tie down a young player and increase the return on his fee, and made business sense.
To me its a A totally different scenario for Rooney, who, one large contract later will have no significant sell on fee. His fitness issues and the games he's played to date may mean he's not half the player he was at the age of 32.
There's no doubt Wayne Rooney has, and probably could still be a great player for United. His contributions have been huge. But twice he's acted without engaging his brain in trying to engineer a move and frankly, his contributions last season were not what they have been before.
Last season is either a blip in a great career, or a sign of things to come - not being fully fit, taking a while to hit form after each injury and the gradual breakdown of the body of a top class sportsman who despite being relatively young, has played over 400 games. A new contract for the latter and that could be the thick end of £40 million wasted - money which could perhaps be better spent elsewhere.
United have a big decision to make about whether he's worth the investment. If there is any truth in the suggestions that he isnt preapred to knuckle down at this stage in his career, for me he may have played his best football. All depends how Moyes and other relevant parties see it.
You make valid points but in the end it will be the owners who have the final decision. From my horizont I'm quite sure they will include his off field actions and off course take advise from both Moyes but more so from Sir Alex.
I can't see him get a pay rise, or staying without us prolong his contract so this will be interesting. My gut feeling is that we sell him but I'm far from 100% sure. He's a damn good player.
If Rooney is drinking all weekend and coming into training hungover on a regular basis then I'm sure Moyes will ship him off without a second thought. We've all heard about how he values extremely high fitness levels and I imagine he'll want to act as Sir Alex did in the beginning and get rid of any senior player who won't get on board with that strict regime. I suspect the allegations are bollocks, of course, and he simply lacks the ultra-high levels of dedication he needs to reach the very top bracket of players (as is the case for many players we've had in the past and while continue to have).
Indeed, he was respectful throughout his time here. And the moment he acted disrespectfully (at a time when he wasn't one of the best players in the world) we tried to get rid of him. We didn't support him and stick with him in the hope that he would take his game up a level, we took a stand on principle and sacked him off.
What Rooney said in his book about Moyes was shocking. It seems to me that David was doing his job in Everton extremely bona fide but young Wayne couldn't understand that he was protected from media bullshit that eventually damaged his private life, in the end. I just hope he's more mature person, now because Moyes proved to be a fantastic manager.
Be a smart boy for a change, Wayne and get over this contract game. Get over yourself.
Be a smart boy for a change, Wayne and get over this contract game. Get over yourself.
Look, Brwned using stats to prove a point, the poster who criticized me every time I do so. On another note, Ronaldo scored 68 goals in the last two seasons at the club.
Personally I agree, SAF certainly wouldn't have put up with it as a regular occurrence, I wouldn't be surprised to see him coming into training hung-over on a Monday morning once in a while, but that's hardly a hanging offence as long as it isn't too often.
Once?
The difference is I'm not saying Rooney played better because he scored more goals. I'm just saying he scored more goals. Right you are about the goals though. The point remains of course. It's a popular opinion that Rooney's level has really dropped off in the last couple of years while no-one would suggest the same about Ronaldo despite them having very similar records. Was Ronaldo's all-round play that much better in his last two seasons? That wasn't the popular opinion at the time...
"Being bored" probably isn't the thrust of what he's saying but from my understanding, the premise is Wayne seeks a new challenge.
Of course there have been other players that have acted up or had behavioral issues, but Rooney has pulled this same thing twice in three years right on contract renewal time, I think that is what sets him apart. As for him as a player, personally I'm not in the camp that thinks we can easily replace him, I just think we can evolve beyond him and become better without needing to fit him in.
Once?
The difference is I'm not saying Rooney played better because he scored more goals. I'm just saying he scored more goals. Right you are about the goals though. The point remains of course. It's a popular opinion that Rooney's level has really dropped off in the last couple of years while no-one would suggest the same about Ronaldo despite them having very similar records. Was Ronaldo's all-round play that much better in his last two seasons? That wasn't the popular opinion at the time...
I remember when you heavily criticized me some times ago when in a thread about Mradona/Messi I mentioned that Messi goal ratio is much much better. Anyway, it doesn't matter just that I found it strange.
Ronaldo in his 2007-2008 season scored 42 goals, fantastic return from him and the best player I have ever seen in a United shirt. The season after that his form drastically dropped, but he again scored 26 goals. The reason people don't remember that he didn't played that well is because he was fantastic in UCL in quarter final with that beauty against Porto and then was brilliant against Arsenal.
Rooney was great in 2011-2012 in terms of goals scoring, though his overall game quality dropped a bit. Last season he had a good return on terms of goals, but the main critique was that his overall play in many many games was very shit. Probably worse than when Nani is out of form.
Well yeah, again, you were comparing a playmaker with a goalscorer on goals alone because they played in vaguely similar positions. That's silly, in my view. I use stats all the time and think they're useful in the right context.
What you say about Rooney last season is what many thought of Ronaldo back then:
People forget how poor he was for a long period after coming back from injury.
Yeah they are useful, and were useful even in that context. Deco was Barca main playmaker, not Ronaldinho.
Ronaldo was average in the first couple of months after the injury (though I don't think that he was as shit as Rooney versus Swansea and in some other games) but he was excellent in the second part.
Sounds like he hasn't said he wants to stay yet.
Will remain a United player according to Moyes.
Will remain a United player according to Moyes.
It's pretty obvious Rooney wants to leave. We shouldn't be begging him to stay.
If he said he wanted to stay then Moyes would have said it, he dodged the question.
Well, listening to Moyes, it's obvious Rooney hasn't changed his mind. Maybe he is acting more professional(training hard and stuff), but he hasn't changed his mind.
I personally dont think this is the issue. If her were behaving like the average 27 year old lad does in boozing and eating shit then he wouldnt have lasted this long. SOme people seem to equate ay suggestion that he's not at peak fitness as anallegation that hes a drunk or is in Burger King 7 days a week - which he clearly isnt.
For me what people need to realise is that some people are naturally fit and others aren't. Footballers, especially those who play at the very top level are finely tuned athletes. As in all top sports the differences between top players and the rest probably isnt a lot - as such, a drop in fitness of a couple of percent could have a huge effect on a players form - especially if that player is relied upon as the main creative force.
Players who have long careers generally change their lifestyle and diets and get obsessive about how they look after themselves. They might completely change how they live, give up alocohol completely, practice yoga (like Giggs) and owrk with the absolute best dieticians and experts with the intention of porlonging their career.
He may enjoy a beer and a couple of ciggarette's now and again, or a trip to Pizza Hut, and may not like hitting thw eights in the gym - hardly a crime and compared to the average Joe he's probably super fit. But its all relative. if the club see his fitness levels drop it might be that what worked for him 5 years ago isnt working now, and he might have to commit to something totally different if he wants to keep at the level he's at.
A new manager willing to offer him a fresh start, that person also prepared to gloss over the meeting with Sir Alex where he asked to leave, and yet Rooney still hasn't committed to the cause?
That answers some questions in itself.
That answers some questions in itself.
Go on Moyesie
Seems pretty clear to me anyway that Rooney doesn't want to stay here, or Moyes would have answered that question which was repeated about 6 times in slightly different ways with a "yes". But he also made it clear the club have no interest in letting him go at all. Not sure that's really the ideal situation, if he doesn't want to play for the club, I'd prefer he didn't. But then I'm not manager of Manchester United and have no idea about anything, so I'll just assume it clearly is for the best.
So Rooney for Mata is on?
still think he's off. moyes won't have gone out and said "yeah he wants out, so we'll let him" and risk getting a pittance for him.
not overly arsed though tbh.
not overly arsed though tbh.
Aye, same as.
I really don't see the point in keeping him if he really wants to go, although it could just be a case that the club aren't getting any financially acceptable offers from foreign clubs, and would rather not sell to Chelsea or whomever.
Yep, I mean there is always that, even if Rooney is being lined up to be sold, he obviously was never going to mention that or anything like it in this conference, but to me I got the feeling he expects Rooney to stay, or won't let him leave.
As has been said, it's pretty obvious that Rooney still wants to leave. It's just been made clear by everyone that United don't want to sell him and expect him to be professional about it.
Now the big question is this: Is an unmotivated Rooney really worth keeping? By saying he's not for sale, are we really just saying that we won't be letting him go for cheap? Everyone has their price and £60m+ for Rooney I think would be good business if reinvested well.
Now the big question is this: Is an unmotivated Rooney really worth keeping? By saying he's not for sale, are we really just saying that we won't be letting him go for cheap? Everyone has their price and £60m+ for Rooney I think would be good business if reinvested well.
Moyes adamant stance and enthusiasm about Rooney as a footballer ought to cast enough doubt in negotiations that prospective buyers won't view us as a weak target.
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