Both sister movements were democratically elected as a result of US vision for the region- a new democratic MidEast. We have been told both times that people in fact don't support their extreme ideology, but rather voted against the previous corrupt regime. Moreover, we've seen supporters of that corrupt regime being thrown from rooftops both sides of the border. Needless to say that in both instances we're talking about one off elections democracy.
A people's Revolution
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Egyptians had lived for many decades being deprived of electing their own government. Last year for the first time they chose a president on their own accord. They promised loyalty and obedience to the winner in hardship, and in matters they have differing opinions. All sections of society including the civil and military services submitted to his rule, including Abdul Seesi who was made Minister of Defense. He took an oath before in front of world media to be obedient to Morsi. He suddenly transformed himself from being a minister to becoming a supreme ruler, in the process deposing the elected President claiming that he was siding with the larger majority, and going against the constitution, which states a president democratically without dispute, must be allowed to complete his appointed term of four years. If he has made mistakes then it is up to the political processes within the state to correct his mistakes and advise him to correct or mend the errors of his ways.
However, for someone to grant themselves authority over the people, and against the constitution, appoint another president, then they have broken their pact with the state, and it's people. Making a mockery of the revolution which had established the democratic system which many people had sacrificed lives to achieve. I don't really understand why anyone would want to side with such murdering dictators.
The economy is in ruins, the revolution was mainly driven by economic desperation. Once Morsi chose to move in the interests of Muslims and towards a Muslim state and the economy rolled over on him the whole thing was doomed.
@BBCBreaking: The interim Egyptian prime minister has proposed legally dissolving the Muslim Brotherhood, his spokesman says http://t.co/wOGPb4bc7F
Yup...this is definitely the solution.
Yup...this is definitely the solution.
Before they could even govern there was an attempted coup in Palestine, just took a little longer for the same to happen in Egypt
I don't think that any such democratic system was established, however. The only thing that changed was that people were able to vote. But the government that the slight majority had voted for had very early shown signs of the same old centralising of power, nepotism, and messing about with the constitution, etc. Morsi was heading into the exact same direction of simply becoming the next dictator. Democracy (the one that the West is so generously selling to the ME) is something that first of all need to be understood and then it needs to grow and develop over decades, if not centuries. Plus, as I said earlier, I believe the chances of a functioning democracy are a bit higher if you have a secular, and not a religious government. As long as all majority Muslim states will insist on having an Islamic republic which constitution is based on the Sharia, there will never ever be a democracy in the ME.
Fixed
Egyptian youth leader backs army in battle with Brotherhood
(Reuters) - Mahmoud Badr, whose petition campaign helped to bring down Egypt's Islamist president, insists the bloodshed that has followed is a necessary price for saving the nation from the Muslim Brotherhood.
And he has a message for U.S. President Barack Obama, who has expressed alarm at the violent crackdown on the Brotherhood that has led to more than 700 deaths: "Don't lecture us on how to deal with the Brotherhood's terrorism."
As for aid money, he says, Obama can keep it - and "go to hell".
Badr, like many Egyptians who consider themselves liberals, has little patience with the human rights groups who call the repression a setback for democracy.
"What Egypt is passing through now is the price, a high price, of getting rid of the Brotherhood's fascist group before it takes over everything and ousts us all," Badr, 28, told Reuters in a telephone interview.
Badr and his two 20-something co-founders of the "Tamarud-Rebel" movement encouraged millions of Egyptians to take to the streets on June 30 in protests demanding the overthrow of Muslim Brotherhood President Mohamed Mursi.
Tamarud's protests led the army to remove Mursi on July 3 and nationwide violence erupted this week after security forces cracked down on sit-ins by his supporters demanding his reinstatement.
Government buildings and churches have been torched and attacked in the last couple of days, actions Badr - like the army and its installed interim government - blame on the Brotherhood and their supporters.
Badr, a journalist, believes the pivotal Arab nation could be descending into civil war. But he still thinks ousting Egypt's first freely-elected president was the right decision and defended the military's conduct in the violent aftermath.
"I did not see anything bad from the army. They did not interfere in politics and I am a witness to that," said Badr. "I back its decisions on my own and without any instructions as I think they are right and getting us where we want."
Like army chief Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, Badr sees the Brotherhood as a terrorist group that is a threat to Egypt, which straddles the Suez Canal and whose 1979 peace treaty with Israel makes it vital to Middle East stability.
"The Brotherhood protesters are armed and attack people and places and that is why there were victims from the police in the clashes," he said.
POLICE DEATHS
The interior ministry said on Saturday 57 policemen had been killed since Wednesday and 563 others wounded. "No policeman was killed or wounded during our protests," Badr said, referring to the anti-Brotherhood unrest he helped foment earlier this year.
Brotherhood leaders have alleged that former cronies of autocrat Hosni Mubarak, himself ousted in a popular uprising in 2011, funded and encouraged Tamarud along with secret policemen.
Security officials have advised Badr to stay out of sight at a secret location for his safety. He spends most of his time watching Egypt's political upheaval on television.
He appeared on state TV in his trademark polo shirt and blue jeans this week, urging Egyptians to take to the streets and form "popular committees" to protect citizens from the Brotherhood.
At night, soldiers beside armored vehicles man checkpoints with barbed wire barricades. Groups of vigilantes block off roads and direct traffic.
Badr said he was upset by U.S. President Barack Obama's remarks condemning the military attack on the Brotherhood's protests, and his cancellation of a joint military exercise and of the delivery of four U.S.-made F-16 fighters to Egypt.
Washington provides $1.3 billion in military aid and about $250 million in economic aid to Egypt every year.
"I tell you President Obama, why don't you and your small, meaningless aid go to hell?" said Badr, accusing Washington of "unacceptable interference in Egypt's internal affairs."
The activist said his movement had agreed to back a call for a petition demanding the ending of American aid to Egypt.
Earlier this year Tamarud activists scoured towns and villages collecting signatures demanding Mursi's departure. The group said it got 22 million, nine million more than the number of votes Mursi won when elected on June of last year.
"We only respect those who respect us and our will and reject those who don't and that is the motto of the new Egyptian foreign policy," Badr said. "I hope President Obama reads that and knows it."
VICTIMS OF REVOLUTION
Human rights activists fear Egypt's generals will return Egypt to the oppression of the Mubarak era.
Interim vice president Mohamed ElBaradei, a Nobel Peace prizewinner, resigned in protest at the violent crackdown but other liberals in government have not followed suit.
Badr, who advocated democratic civilian rule when founding his movement in May, accused ElBaradei of undermining the uprising that toppled Mubarak. "His decision made the revolution look shaky and weak," he said. "What happened in Egypt was a revolution and any revolution has to have victims."
Badr says he has had no contact with the military since meeting Sisi on July 3 to discuss plans for a return to democracy - in a room with generals, a senior Muslim cleric, the Coptic Christian pope, a top judge and opposition leaders.
"My role now is to act as a pressure group by observing the political transition and be ready to interfere if things go in the wrong direction," said Badr, who cut his political teeth in the 2011 uprising.
The Brotherhood, which won every election after Mubarak's fall, has called for more protests across the country, raising the possibility of further bloodshed.
For the next few weeks, Badr predicted "more violence and possible political assassinations" but added: "We will win over terrorism and civil war eventually."
(Editing by Michael Georgy and Andrew Roche)
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/17/us-egypt-protests-tamarud-idUSBRE97G07220130817
(Reuters) - Mahmoud Badr, whose petition campaign helped to bring down Egypt's Islamist president, insists the bloodshed that has followed is a necessary price for saving the nation from the Muslim Brotherhood.
And he has a message for U.S. President Barack Obama, who has expressed alarm at the violent crackdown on the Brotherhood that has led to more than 700 deaths: "Don't lecture us on how to deal with the Brotherhood's terrorism."
As for aid money, he says, Obama can keep it - and "go to hell".
Badr, like many Egyptians who consider themselves liberals, has little patience with the human rights groups who call the repression a setback for democracy.
"What Egypt is passing through now is the price, a high price, of getting rid of the Brotherhood's fascist group before it takes over everything and ousts us all," Badr, 28, told Reuters in a telephone interview.
Badr and his two 20-something co-founders of the "Tamarud-Rebel" movement encouraged millions of Egyptians to take to the streets on June 30 in protests demanding the overthrow of Muslim Brotherhood President Mohamed Mursi.
Tamarud's protests led the army to remove Mursi on July 3 and nationwide violence erupted this week after security forces cracked down on sit-ins by his supporters demanding his reinstatement.
Government buildings and churches have been torched and attacked in the last couple of days, actions Badr - like the army and its installed interim government - blame on the Brotherhood and their supporters.
Badr, a journalist, believes the pivotal Arab nation could be descending into civil war. But he still thinks ousting Egypt's first freely-elected president was the right decision and defended the military's conduct in the violent aftermath.
"I did not see anything bad from the army. They did not interfere in politics and I am a witness to that," said Badr. "I back its decisions on my own and without any instructions as I think they are right and getting us where we want."
Like army chief Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, Badr sees the Brotherhood as a terrorist group that is a threat to Egypt, which straddles the Suez Canal and whose 1979 peace treaty with Israel makes it vital to Middle East stability.
"The Brotherhood protesters are armed and attack people and places and that is why there were victims from the police in the clashes," he said.
POLICE DEATHS
The interior ministry said on Saturday 57 policemen had been killed since Wednesday and 563 others wounded. "No policeman was killed or wounded during our protests," Badr said, referring to the anti-Brotherhood unrest he helped foment earlier this year.
Brotherhood leaders have alleged that former cronies of autocrat Hosni Mubarak, himself ousted in a popular uprising in 2011, funded and encouraged Tamarud along with secret policemen.
Security officials have advised Badr to stay out of sight at a secret location for his safety. He spends most of his time watching Egypt's political upheaval on television.
He appeared on state TV in his trademark polo shirt and blue jeans this week, urging Egyptians to take to the streets and form "popular committees" to protect citizens from the Brotherhood.
At night, soldiers beside armored vehicles man checkpoints with barbed wire barricades. Groups of vigilantes block off roads and direct traffic.
Badr said he was upset by U.S. President Barack Obama's remarks condemning the military attack on the Brotherhood's protests, and his cancellation of a joint military exercise and of the delivery of four U.S.-made F-16 fighters to Egypt.
Washington provides $1.3 billion in military aid and about $250 million in economic aid to Egypt every year.
"I tell you President Obama, why don't you and your small, meaningless aid go to hell?" said Badr, accusing Washington of "unacceptable interference in Egypt's internal affairs."
The activist said his movement had agreed to back a call for a petition demanding the ending of American aid to Egypt.
Earlier this year Tamarud activists scoured towns and villages collecting signatures demanding Mursi's departure. The group said it got 22 million, nine million more than the number of votes Mursi won when elected on June of last year.
"We only respect those who respect us and our will and reject those who don't and that is the motto of the new Egyptian foreign policy," Badr said. "I hope President Obama reads that and knows it."
VICTIMS OF REVOLUTION
Human rights activists fear Egypt's generals will return Egypt to the oppression of the Mubarak era.
Interim vice president Mohamed ElBaradei, a Nobel Peace prizewinner, resigned in protest at the violent crackdown but other liberals in government have not followed suit.
Badr, who advocated democratic civilian rule when founding his movement in May, accused ElBaradei of undermining the uprising that toppled Mubarak. "His decision made the revolution look shaky and weak," he said. "What happened in Egypt was a revolution and any revolution has to have victims."
Badr says he has had no contact with the military since meeting Sisi on July 3 to discuss plans for a return to democracy - in a room with generals, a senior Muslim cleric, the Coptic Christian pope, a top judge and opposition leaders.
"My role now is to act as a pressure group by observing the political transition and be ready to interfere if things go in the wrong direction," said Badr, who cut his political teeth in the 2011 uprising.
The Brotherhood, which won every election after Mubarak's fall, has called for more protests across the country, raising the possibility of further bloodshed.
For the next few weeks, Badr predicted "more violence and possible political assassinations" but added: "We will win over terrorism and civil war eventually."
(Editing by Michael Georgy and Andrew Roche)
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/17/us-egypt-protests-tamarud-idUSBRE97G07220130817
Badr sounds like a wanker - I hope he is gunned down soon...If he isn't careful people like him will be labeled as 'terrorists' in the not too distant future.
Wanker or not, doesn't he represent the young secular alternative to Mubarak which had their "revolution stolen by the MB" a couple of years back?
Where's Avatar when you need him? This is the Liverpool vs. City of ME events. Neither side deserves any support. Help me pick sides, Avatar. Otherwise I'll go for the safe bet and go against Obama. He's been consistently wrong in anything he's done in the region.
Where's Avatar when you need him? This is the Liverpool vs. City of ME events. Neither side deserves any support. Help me pick sides, Avatar. Otherwise I'll go for the safe bet and go against Obama. He's been consistently wrong in anything he's done in the region.
Militants kill 25 Egyptian policemen in Sinai
Terrorists ambush two police minibuses driving near border town of Rafah, kill 25 off-duty policemen execution style; two wounded
Suspected militants on Monday ambushed two mini-buses carrying off-duty policemen in Egypt's northern Sinai, killing 25 of them execution-style and wounding two, security officials said.
The militants forced the two vehicles to stop, ordered the policemen out and forced them to lie on the ground before they shot them to death, the officials said.
The policemen were in civilian clothes, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity as they were not authorized to talk to the media. The killings took place near the border town of Rafah.
There was initial confusion over how the ambush had happened, and the officials at first said the policemen were killed when the militants fired rocket-propelled grenades at the two minibuses.
Morsi supporters in Sinai (Photo: EPA)
But confusion over details in the immediate aftermath of such incidents is common. Egyptian state television also reported that the men were killed execution-style.
Egypt's military and security forces have been engaged in a long battle against militants in the northern half of the peninsula. Militants and tribesmen have used the area for smuggling and other criminal activity for years. Militants have fired rockets into Israel and staged other cross-border attacks there on previous occasions.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4419459,00.html
Terrorists ambush two police minibuses driving near border town of Rafah, kill 25 off-duty policemen execution style; two wounded
Suspected militants on Monday ambushed two mini-buses carrying off-duty policemen in Egypt's northern Sinai, killing 25 of them execution-style and wounding two, security officials said.
The militants forced the two vehicles to stop, ordered the policemen out and forced them to lie on the ground before they shot them to death, the officials said.
The policemen were in civilian clothes, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity as they were not authorized to talk to the media. The killings took place near the border town of Rafah.
There was initial confusion over how the ambush had happened, and the officials at first said the policemen were killed when the militants fired rocket-propelled grenades at the two minibuses.
Morsi supporters in Sinai (Photo: EPA)
But confusion over details in the immediate aftermath of such incidents is common. Egyptian state television also reported that the men were killed execution-style.
Sinai has been witnessing almost daily attacks targeting security forces by suspected militants since the July 3 ouster of Islamist President Mohamed Morsi in a military coup. The strategic region borders the Gaza Strip and Israel.Egypt's military and security forces have been engaged in a long battle against militants in the northern half of the peninsula. Militants and tribesmen have used the area for smuggling and other criminal activity for years. Militants have fired rockets into Israel and staged other cross-border attacks there on previous occasions.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4419459,00.html
Officials in Egypt Said to Order Release of Mubarak
CAIRO — The judicial authorities in Egypt have ordered the release of former President Hosni Mubarak, who has been detained on a variety of charges since his ouster in 2011, according to state media and security officials on Monday. It remained possible, however, that the authorities would find other ways to keep him in detention.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/middleeast/egypt.html?ref=world&_r=0
CAIRO — The judicial authorities in Egypt have ordered the release of former President Hosni Mubarak, who has been detained on a variety of charges since his ouster in 2011, according to state media and security officials on Monday. It remained possible, however, that the authorities would find other ways to keep him in detention.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/middleeast/egypt.html?ref=world&_r=0
Imagine Mubarak being reinstated and Obama confirming that the US will adapt to the new political reality, recalibrate the dialogue and continue to work with its partners and allies in the region etc etc ...
That would literally never, ever, ever, ever happen. I actually almost can't believe they're thinking of releasing him at all. That seems crazy.
I suppose counter-revolution shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.
Except this counter-revolution is backed by the same people who backed the revolution. It's pretty weird.
The Wall Street Journal recently argued, that
"Egyptians would be lucky if their new ruling generals turn out to be in the mold of Chile’s Augusto Pinochet, who took over power amid chaos but hired free-market reformers and midwifed a transition to democracy."
That is weird. What the feck?
The WSJ seem to forget all of the people Pinochet forced into exile or simply "disappeared"?
What's a little bit of torture and "disappearing" when at the same time you're hiring "free-market reformers"..
Indeed, that's just the cost of doing business these days.
Nah we can expect some of this. I think even back during the days of the Bolshevik Revolution they had some who tried to overthrow that revolution. In the US we had the Civil War which could viewed as a counter-revolution backed by many of the same States that backed the first one. Nothing new under the sun as they say.
Turkey has evidence that Israel was behind Egypt coup: Erdoğan
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has claimed that Israel was behind the July 3 military coup in Egypt, adding that Ankara has evidence as to the country’s involvement in President Mohamed Morsi’s overthrow.
“Now the West starts to say democracy is not the ballot box or not only the box but we know that the ballot box is the people’s will,” Erdoğan said Aug. 20 at an expanded meeting of the provincial chairs of his ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP).
The prime minister criticized Western countries' stance vis-à-vis Egypt’s coup, saying, "The West should [understand] the description of democracy, they need to learn it.”
“This is what has been implemented in Egypt. Who is behind this? Israel. We have evidence,” the prime minister said, citing a meeting between an intellectual and the justice minister in France before the 2011 elections.
Erdoğan said the intellectual was Jewish. “‘The Muslim Brotherhood will not be in power even if they win the elections. Because democracy is not the ballot box’: This is what he said at that time,” Erdoğan said.
"Nobody can say the word 'dictator' where dictatorship exists. They hang [such people] as they do in Egypt," Erdoğan said. "Those who want to see a dictator must look at Egypt."
Erdoğan also criticized Gulf countries that have provided financial aid to Egypt's military government, asking them whether they had ever given such support to African Muslim countries.
"We know that there are rich people in the Islamic world, but we also know that there are poor people in need of alms. It is those rich of the Islamic world who have supported dictators," he said.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tu...dogan.aspx?pageID=238&nID=52876&NewsCatID=338
What an obsessed nutjob
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has claimed that Israel was behind the July 3 military coup in Egypt, adding that Ankara has evidence as to the country’s involvement in President Mohamed Morsi’s overthrow.
“Now the West starts to say democracy is not the ballot box or not only the box but we know that the ballot box is the people’s will,” Erdoğan said Aug. 20 at an expanded meeting of the provincial chairs of his ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP).
The prime minister criticized Western countries' stance vis-à-vis Egypt’s coup, saying, "The West should [understand] the description of democracy, they need to learn it.”
“This is what has been implemented in Egypt. Who is behind this? Israel. We have evidence,” the prime minister said, citing a meeting between an intellectual and the justice minister in France before the 2011 elections.
Erdoğan said the intellectual was Jewish. “‘The Muslim Brotherhood will not be in power even if they win the elections. Because democracy is not the ballot box’: This is what he said at that time,” Erdoğan said.
"Nobody can say the word 'dictator' where dictatorship exists. They hang [such people] as they do in Egypt," Erdoğan said. "Those who want to see a dictator must look at Egypt."
Erdoğan also criticized Gulf countries that have provided financial aid to Egypt's military government, asking them whether they had ever given such support to African Muslim countries.
"We know that there are rich people in the Islamic world, but we also know that there are poor people in need of alms. It is those rich of the Islamic world who have supported dictators," he said.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tu...dogan.aspx?pageID=238&nID=52876&NewsCatID=338
What an obsessed nutjob
It reminds me somewhat of the French Revolution. Originally, most were happy that Mubarak was gone but it was hijacked by the Muslim Brotherhood who pushed it down a path towards religious extremism and away from a more liberal democracy that the original protesters seemed to want. Now there's chaos between those two plus the military.
what Egypt does not need is to go down the fundamentalist path. Get rid of the Muslim brotherhood and make it a purely secular state. At least I hope that is what it becomes.
That's nonsense, though. How do you "get rid of" the Muslim brotherhood? They're not exactly an insignificant part of Egyptian society. Branding them a terrorist-group will only manage to turn a currently largely unarmed group into one. There are no easy solutions here. Certainly the Muslim Brotherhood did a terrible job, but blaming them for everything and handing everything to the military (again) is not the answer.
Military only got involved because the majority did not want the Muslim brotherhood dragging the country back into the stone age.
doesn't sound very democratic to me - millions of Egyptians believe in the Brotherhood and what they represent...we don't have to like it, but ban it? How is that any different from what extremists want to do?
Let the majority outvote them...but make it illegal?
Oh and bring back President Mubarak - at least he made sure there was no shortage of falafels...what a joke this revolution has turned out to be? Elbaradei to be punished for resigning...Morsi and the brotherhood jailed on trumped up charges...Mubarak set free
hahahha
hahahha
not much of a choice....
Egypt is fecked.
Egypt is fecked.
The majority voted for them, though. Whatever else mistakes they may have done, the military should not be allowed to decide when enough people want the military to perform a coup and seize power, again.
You're right, though, Egypt is fecked.
looks like the majority have changed their mind. The only difference is the Brotherhood had not taken control of the military. Do you think they would have been averse to using military power. I have zero sympathy for teh Brotherhood or any such religious based party.
As I said Egypt is going down the tubes it seems.
But the majority can't oppress the minority, no matter how big it is. There needs to be equal protection of citizens whether they are Sunni, Shia, Copts, Jewish, rich, poor, etc. Despite having a majority, the Muslim Brotherhood's actions have been undemocratic. That's not to say that the military coup is democratic, but the MB and constitution failed miserably.
That's the problem in a nutshell - failure. The MB have failed, the Army have failed, everything's failed. Egypt's descended into a mess of FUBAR proportions. Not sure how they'll salvage this one.
There is no legitimate government possible in Egypt for the foreseeable future. The military can never be legitimate rulers, the MB run roughshod over non-extremists, while the more liberal citizens don't have popular support given the size of the great unwashed. It was an obvious outcome once the post-Mubarak transition started. Moving so quickly with only one organized party and thousands of small disparate groups to run against them. Egypt has no democratic institutions or ideology to lean on for a transition.
If Assad were deposed in Syria, it would likely be the same outcome.
Surprisingly your backing the same people in syria that your opposing in egypt. Muslim brotherhood are allies of the rebels aka terrorists since both share the same objectives which clearly dont envisage a secular state.
Assad is simply a despot who represents a very small minority. His leaving or preferably being killed will allow the rebels to sort their own country out. There will be elements that want an Islamic state...but the majority will want to return to the modern age. The West and other sane countries would prefer a secular state of course.