Shinji Kagawa

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Its a bit simplistic to look at it as who is in the wrong, the club or Kagawa.

The question is, I think, would Kagawa be playing better if he was played more centrally? And would the team overall be better off if he was played in the middle and someone else - Rooney, in all probability - was shifted to the left to accommodate him?

It is obviously a massive leap of faith to do that, given Rooney is proven and there is no evidence to suggest it would be an improvement. And then there are the other factors, such as Rooney's state of mind, which may dissuade the manager from fecking around with his position, in a bid to convince him to stay.

I just think its a shame we have seen so little of Kagawa in his preferred position.
 
Mad Winger said:
Easily the best player of the first half. Only Nani was up to his level.

If he's not injured, then I've lost a lot of faith in Moyes. I could deal with Kagawa being eased into things, despite being 100% physically fit. But to take him off after such a good half, is just wrong.
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"Sure, I wasn't involved that much. I didn't touch the ball enough, but I was trying to be patient so I didn't feel that bad."

Of course that's just Kagawa being overly hard on himself, right?
 
The thing that Irks me is even when Rooney isn't playing or is rested, Kagawa does not get to play the number 10 role.

RVP either drops deeper, or Welbeck plays there.

The best we have seen of Kagawa was when he and rooney were paired together up top when he scored the hattrick, how many other times has that happened?
 
I think its fair to say that Kagawa has joined a club that doesn't suit his style of play. I don't see a huge change in the way we play, unless the is a major overall of the team. Kagawa would probably fit in the Arsenal set-up and flourish there. Sad to say.
 
Hannibal said:
That statistic is fraudulent when half of those are from set-plays. Kagawa would cop as many assists if he takes corner-kicks and whips in indirect freekicks. Learn to separate open play assists from set play assists. There's a reason Lampard pad up statistics and looks better on paper than Xavi or Iniesta. If Rooney's statistics is not helping the team stay on top of the table then it's meaningless. Of what use is my double hatrick in a match if my team conceded 15 goals in the same game?

34 long balls & 4 through-passes and the players around Rooney suddenly became shit? If Rooney isn't English, he won't be anywhere near our first team. As a number 10, Kagawa is astronomically better than Rooney. Arguing against that fact is arguing against logic.
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You seem to be concentrating on his No.10 position, but I look at his overall contribution to the team. The fact that we do not score from open play cannot be attributed to Rooney alone. Absence of crossed to RvP from wingers, midfield mediocrity all played a part. In fact was it not Rooney, who gave the pass to Valencia to score this season? Maybe it was in a CL match, but the fact still remains.

If not for Rooney's saving grace, we would have been put in a far dire performance. We may lose the match, but it does not discount a good performance. Just shows how the rest should catch up. Rooney performed but the team lost, so he is to balm is a kinda lame argument.
 
Jinn said:
I think its fair to say that Kagawa has joined a club that doesn't suit his style of play. I don't see a huge change in the way we play, unless the is a major overall of the team. Kagawa would probably fit in the Arsenal set-up and flourish there. Sad to say.
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It's generally accepted among the Arsenal ITKs that we agreed a fee with Dortmund for Kagawa and Ferguson hijacked it.

Can't say I'm too gutted because we signed Cazorla in the same summer, but I feel a bit sorry for Kagawa, who just looks like a fish out of water.
 
alastair said:
It's generally accepted among the Arsenal ITKs that we agreed a fee with Dortmund for Kagawa and Ferguson hijacked it.

Can't say I'm too gutted because we signed Cazorla in the same summer, but I feel a bit sorry for Kagawa, who just looks like a fish out of water.
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With Kagawa being 4.5yrs younger, he would have probably been a better buy in the long run. He'd have been perfect for you, not that Cazorla isn't.

I think it's pretty clear both clubs were interested in him for a while though.. Even if Arsenal got their bid in first, I don't think it was a case of Fergie trying to nick him from under your noses - we clearly wanted him aswel despite your interest.

I think it's quite simple really - Van Persie wasn't a nailed on buy by some way, and if it wasn't for us getting Van Persie then Kagawa would have occupied a central role behind Rooney instead of shoehorning him into the team on the left.

Although, knowing Ferguson, he probably considered it a bonus and made the buy easier that he thought Kagawa would be competent on the left if needed.. he loves versatility.
So although I think he planned to play Kagawa centrally, he definitely would have been aware and made note that Kagawa could play on the left, to offer us something different to our other wingers.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
Am I the only one who thought he was a bit shit against West Brom?
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Nah, he wasn't very good. Better than the fresh pile of shite Young has been serving up all week, but still nowhere near his best.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
Am I the only one who thought he was a bit shit against West Brom?
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You're not, but he always does one or two things that makes it seem like he could be one of our best players (he can) and that keeps everyone enthusiastic.

I personally think we need to persevere with him for a few games in a row but he makes it hard for himself getting pushed off the ball a lot and appearing quite tentative at times.
 
Player of the first half against WBA? Seriously! FFS some on here would want to stop with the agendas.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
Am I the only one who thought he was a bit shit against West Brom?
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The guy is probably low on confidence. When he plays for Japan he's a beast of a player. He's probably sitting on the bench at Utd wondering if he's really good enough to make the squad after he's proven himself time and again in Germany. A good player low on confidence is always going to look mediocre.
 
Brwned said:
"Sure, I wasn't involved that much. I didn't touch the ball enough, but I was trying to be patient so I didn't feel that bad."

Of course that's just Kagawa being overly hard on himself, right?
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Having lived and worked in Japan, I know for a fact that Japanese people only will blame themselves, even when it's clearly not their fault. If you want order, structure and displine, it's a nice mindset to have, but it has a few disadvantages too, such as a lot of underlying stress and anger gradually being built up. Passive-aggressiveness is not uncommon in Japan, to say the least.

So yeah, Kagawa's disappointment in himself after that half might be genuine enough, but in reality he has no reason to be disappointed, seeing as he created 2 of our 3 biggest chances, kept possession well, and barely made a mistake.
 
Il Prete Rosso said:
The guy is probably low on confidence. When he plays for Japan he's a beast of a player. He's probably sitting on the bench at Utd wondering if he's really good enough to make the squad after he's proven himself time and again in Germany. A good player low on confidence is always going to look mediocre.
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Well if that's what he thinks he needs to step up and prove he's good enough. Mentality is a big an asset as technical skill, if he's lacking in one he won't make it.
 
Hannibal said:
Evra says hi.

This article echoes my thoughts on this matter....

http://www.prideofalleurope.com/2013/10/is-wayne-rooney-central-to-uniteds-woes/
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Interesting theory about Rooney and our lack of creativity this season - some good points made and the stats about short and long passes say alot (assuming they are correct!). He has played well in general but this is all goes back to the age old question: what is Rooney's best position?

A lot of fans expected Rooney to leave in the summer and Kagawa to become first choice in that role, but obviously that hasnt happened. Moyes seems to be going out of his way to build our attack around Rooney so I cant see Kagawa getting much of a go there unfortunately.
 
Rood said:
Moyes seems to be going out of his way to build our attack around Rooney so I cant see Kagawa getting a go there unfortunately.
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I can completely understand the logic behind that and in Moyes' position I may well follow the same strategy. But it is not without risk. Rooney could easily leave next summer anyway, he still seems loathe to come out and say anything to commit himself to us, it remains to be seen whether he will sign a new contract. Meanwhile Kagawa is likely to become increasingly unsettled. So who would bet against us losing them both?

Its easy to say this when Ill never be in the position to make such important decisions, but I always think the bottom line is people should be picked on form. For now I would play Rooney at number 10 because he is doing a great job but if he has a patch of bad form I would drop him and try Kagawa there. He should then be given a run of games and allowed to prove himself in the role. Then it should be down to Rooney to win the position back. This too has its risks but on balance I really think it must be the best way to keep people motivated.
 
Robbie Boy said:
Player of the first half against WBA? Seriously! FFS some on here would want to stop with the agendas.
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I actually didn't think he was that great until he got subbed. That we didn't play as well in the second half could either be down to him not being there or to a host of other reasons.
 
b82REZ said:
Well if that's what he thinks he needs to step up and prove he's good enough. Mentality is a big an asset as technical skill, if he's lacking in one he won't make it.
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It's hard to ask a player to step up when he's consistently on the bench and playing second fiddle to players who aren't better than him. Look at Ramsey for example. If you know the player is good enough, sometimes you need to bite the bullet and give the player more games to build that confidence. I honestly don't think he left Dortmund wanting to be training fodder or a squad player at Utd.
 
Rood said:
Interesting theory about Rooney and our lack of creativity this season - some good points made and the stats about short and long passes say alot (assuming they are correct!). He has played well in general but this is all goes back to the age old question: what is Rooney's best position?

A lot of fans expected Rooney to leave in the summer and Kagawa to become first choice in that role, but obviously that hasnt happened. Moyes seems to be going out of his way to build our attack around Rooney so I cant see Kagawa getting much of a go there unfortunately.
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Then it would be hypocritical for many to slag him off when he has a bad game. Rooney, Kagawa and RVP can work. It's up to Moyes to find a way to get it done.
 
Adebesi said:
I can completely understand the logic behind that and in Moyes' position I may well follow the same strategy. But it is not without risk. Rooney could easily leave next summer anyway, he still seems loathe to come out and say anything to commit himself to us, it remains to be seen whether he will sign a new contract. Meanwhile Kagawa is likely to become increasingly unsettled. So who would bet against us losing them both?

Its easy to say this when Ill never be in the position to make such important decisions, but I always think the bottom line is people should be picked on form. For now I would play Rooney at number 10 because he is doing a great job but if he has a patch of bad form I would drop him and try Kagawa there. He should then be given a run of games and allowed to prove himself in the role. Then it should be down to Rooney to win the position back. This too has its risks but on balance I really think it must be the best way to keep people motivated.
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Ye I can totally understand him going with Rooney at the moment - in fact the rise in Rooney's form and desire has been one of the positives of the season so far. But whether he is as suited to playing in that role as Kagawa is remains to be seen.


Il Prete Rosso said:
Then it would be hypocritical for many to slag him off when he has a bad game. Rooney, Kagawa and RVP can work. It's up to Moyes to find a way to get it done.
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I am not so sure it can work - would love to be proven wrong though!
Potentially we could actually be better off with Rooney out left and Kagawa more central, but I doubt we will ever see that.
 
Absolute Fruit Cake said:
You seem to be concentrating on his No.10 position, but I look at his overall contribution to the team. The fact that we do not score from open play cannot be attributed to Rooney alone. Absence of crossed to RvP from wingers, midfield mediocrity all played a part. In fact was it not Rooney, who gave the pass to Valencia to score this season? Maybe it was in a CL match, but the fact still remains.
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What else should I concentrate on if not his No.10 position? Overall contribution means squat if he's leaving his primary duties to do the things meant for another player. I don't know why United fans cannot see the whole overall contribution excuse is why Rooney may never fully achieve his potential. SAF said this, Capello said this. Rooney should stay close to RVP/Hernandez and do the damage in the final third of the pitch, not run around like a headless chicken chasing shadows.

Is it not baffling Rooney's pass accuracy against West Brom is 74%. Ross Barkley of Everton posted 92% pass accuracy dovetailing beautifully with Lukaku on Monday. Even if assume Newcastle were quite shit that night....Barkley posted 90% accuracy against the same West Brom at Goodison & yet Rooney bleeds the club dry while performing like a Doncaster United player.

If not for Rooney's saving grace, we would have been put in a far dire performance. We may lose the match, but it does not discount a good performance. Just shows how the rest should catch up. Rooney performed but the team lost, so he is to balm is a kinda lame argument.
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We beat Swansea comfortably without Rooney. Welbeck may not have Rooney's goal scoring prowess but his link up play is generally better when played in the hole. He tracks back better and retains possession by keeping things simple. I dunno about you but if you are satisfied with this mediocrity from Rooney, I am not.
 
Rooney is a better player and a better no 10 than Kagawa. If Kagawa wants to get in the side it has to be on the left.

You are seriously deluded if you think Welbeck is better than Rooney in the hole
 
Rood said:
Ye I can totally understand him going with Rooney at the moment - in fact the rise in Rooney's form and desire has been one of the positives of the season so far. But whether he is as suited to playing in that role as Kagawa is remains to be seen.




I am not so sure it can work - would love to be proven wrong though!
Potentially we could actually be better off with Rooney out left and Kagawa more central, but I doubt we will ever see that.
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Rooney needs to understand that he's part of the bigger picture and if Moyes asks him to play out left with Kagawa pulling the strings in the middle, he should be able to do that. Moyes can also find a way to have RVP and Rooney interchange during games depending on the opposition as RVP has played out on the left before for Arsenal. As I said, it can work but the problem is Moyes probably doesn't have the luxury of time to make it happen; hence the cautious approach he's been taking so far. Nani on the right with Carrick and Fellaini the deepest of the 6 will be a very good balance of attacking and defensive front players.
 
Hannibal said:
http://www.prideofalleurope.com/2013/10/is-wayne-rooney-central-to-uniteds-woes/
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That article does bring up several good points. I have to admit that I'm also a bit quilty of praising Rooney's performances this season, despite him not being that good. He has basically just scored a lot of goals(mostly from set-pieces) and done a lot of running. But the fact still remains: he's not a creative playmaker, and he'll never be.

Playing Rooney leads to a lot of goals and assists, but it also completely stifles our fluidity and creativity. Rooney is a striker, and whenever he plays with RVP/Hernandez/Welbeck, we are playing 4-4-2. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does leave a lot of work for our midfielders and makes us overly dependent on our wingers. To say anything else would be a lie.

But where the hell should Rooney play if not behind the main striker? In CM he's too far behind the action, and he's gonna get grumpy if he has to play there. Up front he has to be better than RVP, which he's not, and never will be. Playing him as a wide forward could work, but I fear that he gets to isolated. He just doesn't possess the right set of skills to be a succesful winger.

Rooney is best as a "free" striker in a 4-4-2. The question is then, is 4-4-2 the best for us? I'm not saying that 4-4-2 is a dead formation, because I have no belief in formations alone winning trophies. But if we're gonna play 4-4-2 at top level, then we need better players. We need our own Schweinsteiger next to Carrick in midfield, and someone like Ribery to cause problems on one of the wings. We have neither, and I don't think we're gonna be able to sign someone like that, not only because players like these are rare, but also because we no longer have the same influence on the market as we had before. We can only hope that Januzaj or Zaha become immense players as soon as possible, or that Kagawa successfully gets transformed into a winger.

If Rooney is going to play, then he either has to take RVP's position, or we need to sign better players. That's if we intend to do well in Europe as well... Playing Kagawa on the left and letting him cut inside does help a bit though. If(and only if) Kagawa gets succesfully integrated into Moyes teamsheet as a left winger, then I think that we can play some really good football. But in order for that to happen, Kagawa has to play frequently.
 
This probably gets said on every page, but I think it bears repeating again. Even if it says on the pre-match graphic that he's playing as a left winger, he really isn't. He has been given free reign to roam about and hasn't been asked to stay near the touchline like Valencia does. If he were started as the #10 he'd still be taking up similar positions that he does now as an alleged left winger.
 
manutddjw said:
This probably gets said on every page, but I think it bears repeating again. Even if it says on the pre-match graphic that he's playing as a left winger, he really isn't. He has been given free reign to roam about and hasn't been asked to stay near the touchline like Valencia does. If he were started as the #10 he'd still be taking up similar positions that he does now as an alleged left winger.
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I think we need to make a fact-based "Kagawa playing as a left winger FAQ" in order to prevent people from drawing stupid conclusions... You know what, screw it, I'm gonna do it!!


FAQ: Kagawa playing as a left winger

1. Is he playing as a classic winger ala Valencia?
No, he is in fact not. He is allowed a lot of freedom to move, and he will cut in frequently, sometimes even moving over to the opposite side of the field.

2. So why are people complainig about Kagawa not playing centrally?
Because it makes a huge difference. Even though he's allowed to move centrally, he still has to go back to the left side far too often. He also gets more defensive responsibilities than he's used to.

3. So the AM position is his best position?
Yes, by far.

4. So why even bother playing him on the left?
Because Rooney can only play in Kagawa's position, seeing as RVP has taken the striker position.

5. What I meant is; why even play Kagawa at all?
Because he offers something different, and is a classy player once he gets enough playtime. He just needs to adjust to his new role. When he does that, we'll be alright.

6. But wait a minute! Doesn't Kagawa play on the left for Japan? Why does he have to adjust for us then?
For two reasons:
1. Japan has a completely different playstyle. They play with a lot of risk on the offence, something in which United never will do.
2. Japan's opponents are usually weaker than the average opponents we face.
 
b82REZ said:
He should step up and adapt. We all criticised Rooney for not stepping up last season and fighting for his position. Kagawa gets defended far too much. He has played numerous times on the left and should be able to adapt. Good players can play in a number of positions.
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Anyway, as his last coach said, it's a shame to see him wasted on the wing.

Not his position.
 
It's a reasonably defensive lineup designed to hit them on the counter. I can see why he hasn't been picked.
 
Aboutreika18 said:
Yeah, the man who was at the centre of Dortmund's great counter attacks a couple of seasons back not being picked in a counter attacking side.

Makes sense.
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We don't play the same system and he's a defensive liability.
 
I think it's ott for me, if we're playing 3 in midfield then can't see why we can't play Kagawa there. He's not shown that he will shirk his defensive work, is known to play well on the counter, I can't think of a less creative middle 3 then that amongst the top teams out there. I'm not saying he's played well enough to be guaranteed that spot but he's played no more poorly than Fellaini, who has at least been playing in his favored position. Kagawa is more proven i europe in the hole and it's actually his favored position.
 
Aboutreika18 said:
Depends, if we're playing without anyone "in the hole", it makes sense. But if Fellaini or Cleverley is playing just off RvP tonight than it's a strange decision.
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If we're playing 3 deep central midfielders that seems a bit much, pretty confident clev/fellaini will play pushed up. Plus the worry is that without a strong counter threat we just allow more pressure to build on us.
 
Il Prete Rosso said:
It's hard to ask a player to step up when he's consistently on the bench and playing second fiddle to players who aren't better than him. Look at Ramsey for example. If you know the player is good enough, sometimes you need to bite the bullet and give the player more games to build that confidence. I honestly don't think he left Dortmund wanting to be training fodder or a squad player at Utd.
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When he does get a run in the team he doesn't consistently impress. He has glimpses during matches and occasionally will perform for a match or two. I really like the lad but something's clearly not right. I don't think there's any hidden agenda from Moyes, I just don't think he's impressing enough in training, or doesn't have the right mentality or any other number of possible problems. He clearly has the potential and skill to succeed but needs to step up and earn his first team place, until then he'll never be considered more than a squad player.

AlwaysRedwood said:
Anyway, as his last coach said, it's a shame to see him wasted on the wing.

Not his position.
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I couldn't care less what his ex manager says.

He's our player now, not Dortmund's. Klopp can cry in the press all he wants about him but Kagawa chose to leave Dortmund and come to United.

He can clearly play on the wing, he performs more than adequately there for Japan. It's not like we want him to be a touchline hugging winger. He'll cut in, interchange with Rooney and float around. He needs to get on the same wavelength as the team, not the other way round. He has never been, nor will he ever be a player we build a team around. People need to get over this idea and stop blindly defending him.

I think ever United fan wants him to succeed but some of this die hard defending and excuse making is cringe worthy.
 
Aboutreika18 said:
Yeah, the man who was at the centre of Dortmund's great counter attacks a couple of seasons back not being picked in a counter attacking side.

Makes sense.
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Indeed. The sad fact is that a player of Kagawa's ability isn't getting game time even when Rooney is out injured. I'm probably in a minority here, but I would rather sell Rooney (don't want players like him at the club) and play Kagawa in that position. With him as a ten, Nani to the left and arguably a new left winger we would be amazing. We have depth in Hernandez and Welbeck for the striker position to not miss Rooney all that much should RVP get injured.

If Fellaini is played as a 10 tonight I might just have a fit.
 
Brophs said:
We don't play the same system and he's a defensive liability.
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Is he though?

The defensive responsibilites of an AM are a bit different from the defensive responsibilities of a CM or a winger. Your job is much more about not losing possession so that the opponent can counter-attack, and to always be available for a pass so that the other players in midfield don't lose possession. Kagawa is good at both these things. In fact, much more so than Rooney.
 
Brophs said:
It's a reasonably defensive lineup designed to hit them on the counter. I can see why he hasn't been picked.
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Well, if we indeed want to do this I'm even more amazed he hasn't been picked behind RVP, having watched him a lot for Dortmund doing exactly this: Hitting teams on the counter.
 
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