Shinji Kagawa

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Kagawa's problem (and our overall problems) is that we play a dreadful 4-4-2. The formation simply doesnt work against good opposition, and even against poorer oppos like West Brom its a disadvantageous formation if the opponent has a spare man in midfield. We lost against City solely based on formation. City did the same against Bayern this midweek and got plastered. Its a tactical blunder in almost any game to play 4-4-2, especially with ultra-wide wingers like Valencia who dont add numbers in the middle.

If we played a bread and butter 4-2-3-1 with Rooney, Kagawa and Nani/Young/Welbeck/Cleverley as the 3 behind the striker we would look a lot more fluid and could actually field our best and most creative players in a valid formation. But for some reason our manager(s) are obsessed with wide players like Valencia and Young who are unable to cut inside and add numbers centrally. Young used to be but his form is abysmal. We should play 4-2-3-1, from a purely hypothetical point of view it suits all of our players except Valencia better than what Moyes has been doing so far.

Kagawa (or Rooney if you are one of those who think he is a worse 10 than Kagawa) would do a very good job as a "wide" player similar to how Nasri played against us or how Arsenal's "wide" players play every week.
 
Kagawa's problem (and our overall problems) is that we play a dreadful 4-4-2. The formation simply doesnt work against good opposition, and even against poorer oppos like West Brom its a disadvantageous formation if the opponent has a spare man in midfield. We lost against City solely based on formation. City did the same against Bayern this midweek and got plastered. Its a tactical blunder in almost any game to play 4-4-2, especially with ultra-wide wingers like Valencia who dont add numbers in the middle.

If we played a bread and butter 4-2-3-1 with Rooney, Kagawa and Nani/Young/Welbeck/Cleverley as the 3 behind the striker we would look a lot more fluid and could actually field our best and most creative players in a valid formation. But for some reason our manager(s) are obsessed with wide players like Valencia and Young who are unable to cut inside and add numbers centrally. Young used to be but his form is abysmal. We should play 4-2-3-1, from a purely hypothetical point of view it suits all of our players except Valencia better than what Moyes has been doing so far.

Kagawa (or Rooney if you are one of those who think he is a worse 10 than Kagawa) would do a very good job as a "wide" player similar to how Nasri played against us or how Arsenal's "wide" players play every week.

Good post that. 4-4-2 is dead at the highest level.
 
Kagawa's problem (and our overall problems) is that we play a dreadful 4-4-2. The formation simply doesnt work against good opposition, and even against poorer oppos like West Brom its a disadvantageous formation if the opponent has a spare man in midfield. We lost against City solely based on formation. City did the same against Bayern this midweek and got plastered. Its a tactical blunder in almost any game to play 4-4-2, especially with ultra-wide wingers like Valencia who dont add numbers in the middle.

If we played a bread and butter 4-2-3-1 with Rooney, Kagawa and Nani/Young/Welbeck/Cleverley as the 3 behind the striker we would look a lot more fluid and could actually field our best and most creative players in a valid formation. But for some reason our manager(s) are obsessed with wide players like Valencia and Young who are unable to cut inside and add numbers centrally. Young used to be but his form is abysmal. We should play 4-2-3-1, from a purely hypothetical point of view it suits all of our players except Valencia better than what Moyes has been doing so far.

Kagawa (or Rooney if you are one of those who think he is a worse 10 than Kagawa) would do a very good job as a "wide" player similar to how Nasri played against us or how Arsenal's "wide" players play every week.


I don't disagree about picking payers who can come inside more especially given Young and Valencia's form, but the formation stuff is pointless. The dreadful 442 we supposedly play is a 4231.
 
Eh... no. Nasri drifted centrally all the time and added a third player centrally for City. Valencia and Young did not, therefore giving City a distinct advantage.
Nasri played wide left and cut in. If Young doesn't cut inside what does he do?
 
I think ultimately the core reason is this:

"Shinji Kagawa is one of the best players in the world and he now plays 20 minutes at Manchester United -- on the left wing," said Klopp. "My heart breaks. Really, I have tears in my eyes."

There's a couple of other factors too, of course. I think it's upset some of the resident transfer muppets that the idea that signing a top player isn't really the simple answer to all our problems. Along with that he seems to have attracted some fanboys that take pride in relentlessly championing his cause. Then you've got the fact the main reason he's not playing in his favoured role is because of a player that most people wanted rid of in the summer. Of course there's also the issue of him being associated with many of the qualities we're lacking most at the moment (awareness of space/intelligent movement, intricate passing, creativity, pressing).

Ultimately though I think it's just the fact that we have a player in our team that is regarded by the manager, players and fans of arguably the most vibrant, exciting team in Europe as being a "world class" player and, for whatever reason, he's performing well below that level. People would just like to see him given more slack than others because he's shown he's the kind of player that can be at the heart of beautiful, exciting, title-winning football, yet at the moment it seems he's being given less slack than almost anyone in the squad.

We have a player here who the resident Dortmund (and Germany) fan believes is at a similar level to Özil and yet we're finding it hard to fit him into the team at a time when just one of our starting attackers is in good form. No-one denies that he's miles away from being in his best form but it's clear the biggest reason for that is his lack of confidence and the way we're handling him isn't likely to help that. Most players need the confidence and support of their manager to play at their best and it seems Kagawa is particularly fragile in that sense, so as much as that counts against him in terms of being "world class", it's not particularly unusual for people to think it's worth giving him that extra support.

There's a couple of myths surrounding Kagawa at the moment. As Sphaero has pointed out multiple times, Kagawa had a a reasonably long period of poor form even in his relatively short spell at Dortmund. In 10/11 by the time November came around he had just 2 goals and 2 assists in 10 league and CL starts, yet in the same period he had scored 4 goals in 5 games for Japan. So this idea that the only reason for Kagawa not being at his best at club level despite showing his quality for Japan is evidence of our blatant misuse of him is silly. The difference here is the manager stuck with him. Of course it's much easier to stick with an underperforming player when you have a small squad and the backup is Ivan Persic (now a squad player for mid-table Wolfsburg), but that show of faith led to him scoring 15 goals and getting 5 assists from then onwards as he led the march towards the league and cup double beating CL finalists Bayern in both competitions. That sort of level of performance is why people are obsessed about Kagawa. It's the kind of thing only a handful of our players have done.

The other myth is this idea that Sir Alex was giving him more and more chances as a #10 at the end of the season. It's just not true. I suppose something that ties into that myth is this idea that even when he's played out wide he's not allowed to come centrally and influence the game in the hole. The easiest way to put that particular myth to bed is simply by watching him in practically any game he plays for us there, but if that doesn't work then you can just look at his average position map v Leverkusen and West Brom. He's closer to the centre spot than he is to the touchline as he always is. He's playing as an inside forward as the oldies would say. In fact his proximity to the centre spot is one of the problems so far, he's dropping deep and playing nothing balls, slowing the play down and playing safe football - that's one of the issues Moyes alluded to after the match v West Brom and that kind of passive football has been a recurring theme. Regardless of that the fact is he's clearly being allowed to come centrally, if Moyes was such a stickler for rigid positions then Januzaj's movement all over the pitch would drive him mental and he'd get nowhere near the team.

Bit of a meandering post but all I'm saying is yes, Kagawa hasn't performed particularly well so far but it's not that surprising that he receives more support than our other underperforming players because a) he has qualities we're lacking at the moment that aid fluid, attacking football, b) he's proven he's capable of being a key player for a title-winning side and c) he seems to be being cut less slack than other performing players despite seemingly having a good attitude.
That last bit is what in don't like. Noone's saying he's been brilliant for us. He's been very good at times and average at others, but never quite as good as what he can be. But I dislike the fact that he seems to get a rougher treatment and less faith than the likes of Valencia.

Kagawa for me just seems to lacking in confidence at the moment, and a bit of faith would help with him fulfilling his potential (he'd have to raise his game also of course).
 
I don't disagree about picking payers who can come inside more especially given Young and Valencia's form, but the formation stuff is pointless. The dreadful 442 we supposedly play is a 4231.

Well, the main point isnt what you call the formation, its the differences in how the formation is played. A "number formation" is never accurate, and every team playing 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 or whatever do it with more nuance.

There are two main differences between how we play and how other, more successful and fluid attacking sides like Arsenal or Bayern play, regardless of whether you call it a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1 (I still think 4-4-2 most closely describes our playstyle).

1. Our central player behind the striker (Rooney) is further up the pitch than the corresponding players in other teams. He does drop deep and help out the midfield, but he is to a much larger extent identifiable as a forward and not a midfielder. There is no doubt that players like Kroos or Özil are midfielders.

2. Our wingers play a lot wider. Young and Valencia are classic wingers. They stay out wide and receive the ball wide. In other teams, such as Nasri did against us, the wingers will come inside a lot more. Im talking about coming inside to receive the ball here, not cutting inside after receiving the ball. The former is what Nasri did against us and that Valencia and Young did not, which led to City winning the midfield battle comfortably.

The combination of these two factors is that our midfield duo gets pathetically isolated and without options. A midfield duo of Carrick - Fellaini/Anderson/Clev can not handle a number disadvantage in the middle.
 
Nasri played wide left and cut in. If Young doesn't cut inside what does he do?

Young cuts inside when he gets the ball. He does not drop inside to receive the ball. These are different concepts. Nasri dropped inside to receive the ball constantly, and as a result the city midfield had more options than our midfield, which made them win the midfield battle.

Ofc the more obvious reason for losing that game was Valencia's inability to track back, but Nasri's contribution in the middle was also an important factor.
 
That last bit is what in don't like. Noone's saying he's been brilliant for us. He's been very good at times and average at others, but never quite as good as what he can be. But I dislike the fact that he seems to get a rougher treatment and less faith than the likes of Valencia.

Kagawa for me just seems to lacking in confidence at the moment, and a bit of faith would help with him fulfilling his potential (he'd have to raise his game also of course).

And he'll only get that by playing regularly and that just isn't happening. Same goes for Nani, or any other player you care to mention. It's the downside of the squad system. I do like Kagawa, from what I've seen of him, but he does seem a bit lightweight and he does get muscled out of games. Maybe a free, roaming role for him is the answer. Letting him drift into spaces that are open rather than keeping him rigidly sticking to the left where he's easier to mark out of the game. It's certainly a conundrum but Wenger seems to be utilising Ozil's strengths quite well. What's our problem?
 
And he'll only get that by playing regularly and that just isn't happening. Same goes for Nani, or any other player you care to mention. It's the downside of the squad system. I do like Kagawa, from what I've seen of him, but he does seem a bit lightweight and he does get muscled out of games. Maybe a free, roaming role for him is the answer. Letting him drift into spaces that are open rather than keeping him rigidly sticking to the left where he's easier to mark out of the game. It's certainly a conundrum but Wenger seems to be utilising Ozil's strengths quite well. What's our problem?
Well Ozil is better than kagawa. But still, I think it's a combination of a lack of confidence/him not adapting to English football, our playing style (we play more far apart than most other top sides with less short passing options on) and us not giving him faith and a run in the team.
 
Well Ozil is better than kagawa. But still, I think it's a combination of a lack of confidence/him not adapting to English football, our playing style (we play more far apart than most other top sides with less short passing options on) and us not giving him faith and a run in the team.

I dunno about Ozil being better. I've seen a lot more of Ozil because of his greater exposure for Real and for Germany in 2010. Klopp certainly rates his as being Ozil's equal and he ought to know. But I wonder if he'll turn out to be another Veron and get shipped out before we really get to see what he's capable of.
 
Young cuts inside when he gets the ball. He does not drop inside to receive the ball. These are different concepts. Nasri dropped inside to receive the ball constantly, and as a result the city midfield had more options than our midfield, which made them win the midfield battle.

Ofc the more obvious reason for losing that game was Valencia's inability to track back, but Nasri's contribution in the middle was also an important factor.
Yeah, it was definitely Valencia's fault Fellaini didn't mark the man he was stood beside for two of the four goals. They won the midfield battle because Fellaini couldn't get close to Toure all game and played at a walking pace. feck all to do with Nasri.
 
Yeah, it was definitely Valencia's fault Fellaini didn't mark the man he was stood beside for two of the four goals. They won the midfield battle because Fellaini couldn't get close to Toure all game and played at a walking pace. feck all to do with Nasri.

Ok, so it wasnt Valencia's fault that he let Kolarov stroll into an overlapping position on the left side repeatedly, directly leading to two goals and several additional goal scoring chances for city, and Nasri had "feck all" to do with City winning the midfield battle. :lol: We basically had a 2 man midfield while City had 3 because of Nasri. No one wins 2man midfields against 3man.

Get a fecking clue.
 
I dunno about Ozil being better. I've seen a lot more of Ozil because of his greater exposure for Real and for Germany in 2010. Klopp certainly rates his as being Ozil's equal and he ought to know. But I wonder if he'll turn out to be another Veron and get shipped out before we really get to see what he's capable of.
Fergie said Ronaldo was better than messi. Managers often exaggerate praise for players they're find fond of.
 
Kagawa (or Rooney if you are one of those who think he is a worse 10 than Kagawa) would do a very good job as a "wide" player similar to how Nasri played against us or how Arsenal's "wide" players play every week.

Isn't that what we have asked Kagawa to do?

When he plays there he goes walkabouts centrally all the time.
 
We lost against City solely based on formation.

We most certainly didn't.

There wasn't even that big a difference between the two systems, both played a 4-2-3-1. In that post above you say it isn't a 4-2-3-1 for us because Rooney is more of a forward, so does that not apply to Aguero? A central two of Rooney/Welbeck offers more to the midfield than Aguero/Negredo.

Then you talk about how wide our wingers play as an indication we don't play 4-2-3-1, when City play with Navas on the right who is about as stereotypical a 'winger' you could get and similar to Valencia.

So the only difference left is Nasri vs Young, which seeing as they both cut inside is not a particularly meaningful distinction IMO. Certainly not enough to back up your comment that the 'sole' reason we lost the game was the difference is formation. A marginally more centrally orientated wide player would have made little difference.
 
I also think Kagawa has underperformed when given the chance. But I cant help but think he would do better if we focused our attacking unit more around the technical ability of our players (Rooney, RVP, Kagawa, Nani are all brilliant in small areas, and Cleverley and Welbeck are good at it as well) rather than width. Kagawa has mostly been given chances on the wing, and while he can drift centrally to link up with Rooney or the midfield 2 it would work better if this was actually part of the game plan instead of just something that happens because Kagawa is on the pitch.

I wish Moyes would give a narrower formation a shot for a few games so we could actually see how it works in practice. As of now its mostly speculation if it would work or not, but it cant be much worse than what we have seen the last few games...
 
I dunno about Ozil being better. I've seen a lot more of Ozil because of his greater exposure for Real and for Germany in 2010. Klopp certainly rates his as being Ozil's equal and he ought to know. But I wonder if he'll turn out to be another Veron and get shipped out before we really get to see what he's capable of.

Ozil is comfortably better than Kagawa, as much as I do rate Shinji. His ability to look after the ball, vision and weight of pass is unreal. Kagawa just doesn't compare for me.
 
I dunno about Ozil being better. I've seen a lot more of Ozil because of his greater exposure for Real and for Germany in 2010. Klopp certainly rates his as being Ozil's equal and he ought to know. But I wonder if he'll turn out to be another Veron and get shipped out before we really get to see what he's capable of.

Ozil is clearly the better midfielder than Kagawa.
 
Well Ozil is better than kagawa. But still, I think it's a combination of a lack of confidence/him not adapting to English football, our playing style (we play more far apart than most other top sides with less short passing options on) and us not giving him faith and a run in the team.


I can't really agree that Ozil is better having watched Kagawa in Germany. My guess is he'll go back and return to form when played regularly and in position.
 
We most certainly didn't.

There wasn't even that big a difference between the two systems, both played a 4-2-3-1. In that post above you say it isn't a 4-2-3-1 for us because Rooney is more of a forward, so does that not apply to Aguero? A central two of Rooney/Welbeck offers more to the midfield than Aguero/Negredo.

Then you talk about how wide our wingers play as an indication we don't play 4-2-3-1, when City play with Navas on the right who is about as stereotypical a 'winger' you could get and similar to Valencia.

So the only difference left is Nasri vs Young, which seeing as they both cut inside is not a particularly meaningful distinction IMO. Certainly not enough to back up your comment that the 'sole' reason we lost the game was the difference is formation. A marginally more centrally orientated wide player would have made little difference.

Aguero and Rooney are similar players. The point I made about comparing "in the hole" players I specifically didnt mention Aguero because City plays their two front men very similar to how we do, and they also suffer from it against premium opposition. Their front two made them lose the midfield battle horribly against Bayern. Pellegrini's City actually plays very similar to how we do when we have someone like Kagawa on the wing, who naturally drifts centrally.

Regarding Nasri, he made a huge difference in the derby, and Young did NOT come inside to receive the ball at all. I can dig up some graphs if you want. The difference was very noticeable. We had two wingers who were stuck to the line while City had one. This made the midfield a 3 v 2 in practice, despite the similarity in the starting formations. There was a noticeable difference when Young went off and Cleverley, a clearly more central-oriented player, came on. We started seeing more of the ball almost instantly after the change. Ofc, City were already 3/4 goals up by that point so its hard to know how much was down to the sub and how much was down to City switching off.

Ofc its hyperbole to say we lost solely because of formation, but our formation and the players in the specific positions disadvantaged us. It was very easy to foresee that we would lose the midfield and that our front two subsequently would see little of the ball just from seeing the team sheets.
 
I can't really agree that Ozil is better having watched Kagawa in Germany. My guess is he'll go back and return to form when played regularly and in position.


I imagine you recorded all of the Dortmund games and watched them back in your own time.

When you say 'go back to form,' who says he's going to do that so seamlessly? He's not shown much in about 14 months now.
 
I dunno about Ozil being better.

Does Kagawa emit some sort of stupid ray fans are exposed to or something?

I can't recall so many consistently spouting so much nonsense about a player as happens with Kagawa.

Every man and his dog knows Ozil is clearly superior to Kagawa.
 
Does Kagawa emit some sort of stupid ray fans are exposed to or something?

I can't recall so many consistently spouting so much nonsense about a player as happens with Kagawa.

Every man and his dog knows Ozil is clearly superior to Kagawa.


How many games did you watch him play in Germany?
 
What would be the point, for either him or the club? The calibre of club for which he should be playing for would be a domestic rival.

For his part a permanent deal would be best IMO. I mean if Moyes is going to insist
that the left flank is the only place for him and with our current style of play to boot, why prolong matters?


Let him play for a side at No.10 to prove that is where his role is and he can definitely be effective playing it in England? but yes why prolong it, I can't disagree with that.
 
If Kagawa were as good as Ozil, there would be clubs willing to pay, say, 40 mil. pounds for him. I very much doubt that there is a top club out there that would pay 25 m to sign him. He is way overrated by some United fans. He's had one great half season in his career so far. To compare him to Ozil who has been one of the best playmakers in the world for the past 3-4 years is ridiculous. Hopefully, he proves me wrong. It will be difficult for him though as Rooney plays in his best position.
 
Does Kagawa emit some sort of stupid ray fans are exposed to or something?

I can't recall so many consistently spouting so much nonsense about a player as happens with Kagawa.

Every man and his dog knows Ozil is clearly superior to Kagawa.

I haven't seen enough him to judge and I said that quite clearly in an earlier post. I'll reserve judgment until I've seen Kagawa playing regularly for something close to a full season.
 
Is not the mark of a truly world class player though one that can translate his skills into any club?

It's all very well for a Dortmund fan for whom Kagawa has played superbly to say 'yes, I'd have him back in a heartbeat' because he has a history of success there. It doesn't mean Kagawa is a top class player - it means he's top class in a particular system.
 
Are we now comparing Kagawa to Ozil?? :lol:

Well they do have a lot of similarities.

- Same age.
- Same postion.
- Relatively similar playstyles(both offensive playmakers who can play on the wing, but thrive behind the striker).
- They both left the Bundesliga for a more famous team for roughly the same price.

Özil is the better player, but we can't be sure that things are gonna stay that way. Kagawa hasn't taken the league by storm yet, but he definitely has the potential to do so. He certainly took the Bundesliga by storm, and I don't think it's a coinscidence that he's won 5 big throphies in roughly 3 years. He was instrumental for at least 3 of them.. Arguably 4.
 
He's top class for Japan as well. He pissed all over Italy in the Confederations Cup. He made the team that finished second in the Euros just one year prior look like amateurs.


I watched the game. That is an exaggeration of truly epic proportions. Genuinely. He was good on the night, but Japan lost the game. If Kagawa had played as well as you claimed, they'd probably at least have won.
 
Aguero and Rooney are similar players. The point I made about comparing "in the hole" players I specifically didnt mention Aguero because City plays their two front men very similar to how we do, and they also suffer from it against premium opposition. Their front two made them lose the midfield battle horribly against Bayern. Pellegrini's City actually plays very similar to how we do when we have someone like Kagawa on the wing, who naturally drifts centrally.

Regarding Nasri, he made a huge difference in the derby, and Young did NOT come inside to receive the ball at all. I can dig up some graphs if you want. The difference was very noticeable. We had two wingers who were stuck to the line while City had one. This made the midfield a 3 v 2 in practice, despite the similarity in the starting formations. There was a noticeable difference when Young went off and Cleverley, a clearly more central-oriented player, came on. We started seeing more of the ball almost instantly after the change. Ofc, City were already 3/4 goals up by that point so its hard to know how much was down to the sub and how much was down to City switching off.

Ofc its hyperbole to say we lost solely because of formation, but our formation and the players in the specific positions disadvantaged us. It was very easy to foresee that we would lose the midfield and that our front two subsequently would see little of the ball just from seeing the team sheets.

Most likely instructions given by the manager. It was obvious Moyes wanted to use width to break City open cause their defense hasn't been up to par this season and they seem to be struggling with crosses into the box. It didn't work out and he probably just didn't have a plan B.
 
I watched the game. That is an exaggeration of truly epic proportions. Genuinely. He was good on the night, but Japan lost the game. If Kagawa had played as well as you claimed, they'd probably at least have won.

He was named MOTM, though. He barely made a mistake, created many chances, and even dribbled past their defenders several times. I for one thought he looked like he was on a completely different level. I couldn't believe that he was playing the Italians.

Italy won that game because of Japan's crazy unstable defense. They pretty much converted all their chances. This is also the very reason for why Kagawa plays well on the left wing for Japan, but struggles a bit for us. Japan play really risky football. That's just not gonna happen in United...
 
I watched the game. That is an exaggeration of truly epic proportions. Genuinely. He was good on the night, but Japan lost the game. If Kagawa had played as well as you claimed, they'd probably at least have won.


EDIT - I just looked at your profile. Walking in a Shinji wonderland. This isn't going to be constructive, is it?
 
Is not the mark of a truly world class player though one that can translate his skills into any club?

It's all very well for a Dortmund fan for whom Kagawa has played superbly to say 'yes, I'd have him back in a heartbeat' because he has a history of success there. It doesn't mean Kagawa is a top class player - it means he's top class in a particular system.


I agree for the most part hence why I and the vast majority of others think Ozil is the better player. I was just making the point that it's not just biased United fans making these ridiculous points. Although I don't think Kagawa failing to succeed at United would be proof that he's not a world class player. Forlan suffered many of the same problems as Kagawa at the same age but I think at one point he proved himself to be a top player.
 
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