Russia Discussion

Russia will take Crimea - yes it is an invasion and an annexation no doubt about it - and it will be legitimized by the fact that Crimeas prime minister asked for Russian help - they are majority pro Russian and this was but obvious

But all out war or occupation of Ukraine is not going to happen
 
digitalnirvana said:
Except Ukraine handed over their 2000 wmds to Russia in 1994

Russia only wants Crimea as it is their only warm water port left
Click to expand...

I was being sarcastic with that post. Whether we like it or not, Russia has a vested interest in Ukraine. There's a large Russian population, not only in Crimea but also in other regions of Ukraine and having an unstable neighbor where a lot of Russians live is a grave concern for Russia. UK will do the same if Ireland descends into anarchy. People want to see what they'd like to see. West has a pre-conceived notion of what democracy and freedom of individuals should be.
 
Mihajlovic said:
"According to the agreement signed between the Russia and Ukraine in 1999, Russia’s Black Sea Fleet leases a network of over 1,000 naval facilities on the Crimean Peninsula, including a naval base in Sevastopol, two airfields and a training facility in Feodosia. The bases can include up to 25,000 personnel, 22 airplanes, up to 24 artillery complexes, and 132 armored trucks.

“When the agreement was signed no one could have imagined that it would come to this. But as it is, each side can interpret the agreement in its own way, and it will be right,” said Alexei Malashenko, a security expert at Moscow’s Carnegie Center. “Russia says it’s defending its fleet, the other side says it’s violating its sovereignty.”

http://themoscownews.com/news/20140303/192276993/Crimea-crisis-Role-of-Russias-Black-Sea-Fleet.html
Click to expand...

So why did Russian troops outside these bases? Why are they surrounding civilian airports, goverment buildings and communication centres in Crimea... You'll probably say to protect them. So they are they surrounding Ukrainian military bases and airports?

Hell the Russians started popping up all over Crimea even before Putin got his agreement from the Russian upper house.

Not to mention that Putins agreement from his government deploys troops is worded just right so he has authorisation to send troops into any part of Ukraine he wishes.

Now there is a ultimatum of surrender or.. basically war? Yes not an invasion indeed.
 
fishfingers15 said:
I was being sarcastic with that post. Whether we like it or not, Russia has a vested interest in Ukraine. There's a large Russian population, not only in Crimea but also in other regions of Ukraine and having an unstable neighbor where a lot of Russians live is a grave concern for Russia. UK will do the same if Ireland descends into anarchy. People want to see what they'd like to see. West has a pre-conceived notion of what democracy and freedom of individuals should be.
Click to expand...


Oh I think we all agree Russia has interests there, the question is at this time were the ethnic Russians under immediate threat of to use one posters claim "a massacre" or was the Black Sea Fleet truly under threat? And were there other options open to the Russians (ie take their concerns for the ethnic Russians to the UN)?

I know we can pull all sorts of recent and distant historic acts by various nations and say "What about when so and so did that" but is that really a basis for deciding if an action taken by a nation is the correct one?
 
Mihajlovic said:
It's a signed agreement. Russia can hold up to 25000 troops in Crimea. If Russia is now moving troops over to Crimea in order to protect their fleet, for example, how exactly is that an invasion if the troops are being moved as per the agreement?

Of course, in this context I do understand your need for the repeated use of buzz-words, such as 'invasion'. They have to be repeated ad infinitum until they are firmly locked in everyone's heads. And there are many more buzz words which haven't been used yet, such as 'massacre' and 'rape', etc. I'm sure Interfax will come up with a suitable story pretty quick.
Click to expand...

Of course they're allowed to have troops there. That doesn't mean they're allowed to bloody storm Ukrainian bases though!

If they wanted to protect their bases, why not do just that- protect their bases, rather than take over the entire area. And don't spout off about 'fascists' massacring ethnic Russians, because it's absolutely bullshit propaganda that's spewing out of the Russian government/RT/Putin controlled news sources(all of them) to justify their illegal occupation.
 
Last edited:
The Russian defence ministry has apparently denied reports that Russian forces gave an ultimatum to the Ukrainian troops in Crimea (see 15:58 entry). "This is utter nonsense", a spokesman for the Russian defence ministry told Vedomosti, a Russian broadsheet.

It's like a fecking summer transfer saga.
 
Bross said:
Tymoschenko now claiming Russia is now at war with the US and UK because of their recent actions. Who let this idiot back into Ukrainian politics?
Click to expand...

Unacceptable. Time to trump up some charges and throw her back in jail.
 
JustAFan said:
Oh I think we all agree Russia has interests there, the question is at this time were the ethnic Russians under immediate threat of to use one posters claim "a massacre" or was the Black Sea Fleet truly under threat? And were there other options open to the Russians (ie take their concerns for the ethnic Russians to the UN)?

I know we can pull all sorts of recent and distant historic acts by various nations and say "What about when so and so did that" but is that really a basis for deciding if an action taken by a nation is the correct one?
Click to expand...

So, should Putin have waited till Crimea descended into total chaos and then went in with troops?
 
Scorpy said:
The Russian defence ministry has apparently denied reports that Russian forces gave an ultimatum to the Ukrainian troops in Crimea (see 15:58 entry). "This is utter nonsense", a spokesman for the Russian defence ministry told Vedomosti, a Russian broadsheet.

It's like a fecking summer transfer saga.
Click to expand...
CrimeON or CrimeOFF?
 
Scorpy said:
The Russian defence ministry has apparently denied reports that Russian forces gave an ultimatum to the Ukrainian troops in Crimea (see 15:58 entry). "This is utter nonsense", a spokesman for the Russian defence ministry told Vedomosti, a Russian broadsheet.

It's like a fecking summer transfer saga.
Click to expand...

It was made by a Russian naval commander who went onto a Ukrainian ship to offer an ultimatum.
 
digitalnirvana said:
Err what happened in Georgia? The Georgian government invaded an autonomous region first and Russia retaliated

Wikipedia should be a good place to start reading

Let's not get facts mixed up please
Click to expand...

South Ossetia was Georgian territory and defected. Georgia "invaded" what they considered to be their territory, Russia retaliated. The primary reason Russia retaliated is because on the wider scheme of things, Georgia is a close ally of the US. Otherwise they wouldn't have been interested.
 
qgx26.jpg
 
JustAFan said:
Ah so the agreement says it can have those troops on the bases, it also says they can act in self-defense beyond those bases , but surely the agreement assumes there has to be a legitimate threat to the Black Sea Fleet. At this time, there really does not seem to be one.
Click to expand...

I'm simply quoting the Moscow News and I cannot claim with certainty what the agreement should "surely assume" as I wasn't the one drafting it, so maybe you should do your own research.
 
Moriarty said:
That ought to get them shaking in their boots.
Click to expand...
well the uk has said they are only perusing diplomatic / economic routes and not military
cant someone just redraw the map and get this over with - we all know the outcome is crimea and the east of ukraine becomes part of russia and gas bills go through the roof
 
Raoul said:
I'm guessing Ukraine will have an election soon and probably reelect Tymoshenko who bridges the gap between north/west and east/south, and is actually from a Russian part of those daft maps people seem to be posting all over the place.
Click to expand...

Those daft maps are there for your benefit. You need to understand that the current government, which was not democratically elected, does not represent half of the country's population.
 
sun_tzu said:
well the uk has said they are only perusing diplomatic / economic routes and not military
cant someone just redraw the map and get this over with - we all know the outcome is crimea and the east of ukraine becomes part of russia and gas bills go through the roof
Click to expand...

That's about all we can do. Can you imagine Britain seriously entertaining any sort of military action against Russia? I can't.
 
Lu Tze said:
Of course they're allowed to have troops there. That doesn't mean they're allowed to bloody storm Ukrainian bases though!

If they wanted to protect their bases, why not do just that- protect their bases, rather than take over the entire area. And don't spout off about 'fascists' massacring ethnic Russians, because it's absolutely bullshit propaganda that's spewing out of the Russian government/RT/Putin controlled news sources(all of them) to justify their illegal occupation.
Click to expand...

We just all witnessed a good example of such practice coming from the respectable and trustworthy Interfax. It even made its way to the BBC. Turns out it's all just a pile of shit :p.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Those daft maps are there for your benefit. You need to understand that the current government, which was not democratically elected, does not represent half of the country's population.
Click to expand...

Thanks but I don't need the mickey mouse maps as I'm in Ukraine several times a year and know the deal. What those maps don't illustrate is that many Ukrainians in the primarily Russian speaking south and east, still consider themselves as Ukrainians first who aren't interested in being part of Putin's Russia. Even the pro-western Tymoshenko hails from Russian speaking part of the country. There are pockets in the east who are pro-western, there are pockets in the south who are pro-Russian and pro-western. Looking at a map with Russian and Ukrainian linguistic breakdowns doesn't tell the entire story.
 
Raoul said:
Its on CNN, which you apparently don't watch because its pro-Western.
Click to expand...

Aaah, CNN, the source of all truth and wisdom. Yeah you're right, I don't watch that garbage. I watch Russia Today. So I guess we've pretty much positioned ourselves here.
 
Red Dreams said:
only the start....second cold war?
Click to expand...

Does Obama have the stomach for it,i doubt it.The US and UK are toothless in this situation and pulling out of the G8 means nothing ,the G8 is a dying dinosaur anyway.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Aaah, CNN, the source of all truth and wisdom. Yeah you're right, I don't watch that garbage. I watch Russia Today. So I guess we've pretty much positioned ourselves here.
Click to expand...

Yeah RT is a good Russian state sponsored place to reconnect with some Slavic love.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.