why would I defend the unity of a communist regime. I want them all destroyed. People want to be free.
Russia Discussion
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why would I defend the unity of a communist regime. I want them all destroyed. People want to be free.
like this one
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-referendum-who-were-the-three-No-votes.html
certainly argentina dont seem to see any validity in it
I'm certainly against communism and Putin occupying Crimea, but Russia isn't really communist, and if anybody thinks democracy directly equates to "freedom", has no clue.
Americans complaining about invading other countries under false pretexts are probably as hypocritical as Putin is. You guys did a FINE job restoring "freedom" to Iraq.
Did you read what he was responding to? It was a question about the Soviet Union, not Russia.
Yes, every American approved of the US invasion of Iraq.
You are the worst poster in the CE. Only unnuanced comments.
When it's a "communist regime", it's about the "people", when it's a pro-West coup, it's about the "international law".
You can definitely tell you're American.
...and where have I supported Pro- Western Coups.
my reference was to the Soviet Union which Danny brought up.
Democracy does equate to freedom. Once and for all ...the US occupation of Iraq was wrong.
Ummm, the people who elected those clowns?
I think it's non-sense that the American people keep saying that excuse, "Well it's not us, it's the government, and our government is wrong, and two wrongs don't make a right..."
I thought you guys are free and democratic, how can the people of a democratic country get no blame for the actions of their government?
You had honest politicians (in my opinion Ron Paul is far more honest than any other politician in the US), but you keep picking those idiots, and then you act like you have nothing to do with what they do.
ahhh. I'm gutted by the 'thoughts' of a pro Russian Serb
If you read my posts and think Im a serb then you are a lost cause. Im not even pro-russian, Im just tired of the unnuanced regurgitating of biased pro-western arguments peddled as facts that people like you keep doing in this thread.
Mihajlovic is the pro russian Serb and for what its worth I think hes far too biased in the other direction. But at least he tries to argue instead of come out with pointless blabber like calling everyone who doesnt swallow comments from the Ukrainian (ultra-pro-western) government whole "putin lovers".
Almost all the stuff coming out of the Ukraine government so far have been bullshit. First the so-called "Russian ultimatum", which came from a Ukrainian government source and never happened. Then they claimed Russian soldiers had kidnapped the UN representative (it was a russian-friendly mob. Big difference). Not to mention saying that Russia wants to invade the entirety of Ukraine, which makes absolutely no sense from a Russian point of view. Yet some people in this thread seem to believe that the only side that deals in propaganda is Russia. Its at best naive, more probably just a product of extreme bias.
Well I was 9 years old during the 2000 election so I think I get a pass on that one. Only 17% of the country cast a vote for Bush.
ahhh some 'thoughts'..honest
not interested what you are tbh....
The facts are the Ukrainian people threw out a corrupt leader....whether he was elected or not is irrelevant. He would not go they got rid of him. Russia marched into another country...those ethnic Russians were never in danger of their lives. It was just a pretext...Russia does not want Ukraine moving out of their sphere of influence. simple. The future....think Crimea will go back to being under Russian 'influence'...the rest of Ukraine will come closer to the West. No one is going to spill blood over all this...that is what is good...
Business as usual in a few weeks....
ahhh some 'thoughts'..honest
not interested what you are tbh....
The facts are the Ukrainian people threw out a corrupt leader....whether he was elected or not is irrelevant. He would not go they got rid of him. Russia marched into another country...those ethnic Russians were never in danger of their lives. It was just a pretext...Russia does not want Ukraine moving out of their sphere of influence. simple. The future....think Crimea will go back to being under Russian 'influence'...the rest of Ukraine will come closer to the West. No one is going to spill blood over all this...that is what is good...
Business as usual in a few weeks....
Not sure why I even bother arguing with an idiot who recently tried to make a serious case about Republicans only disliking Obama because hes black.
you really are a stupid person Bross....
why are you trolling the CE?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/05/clash-crimea-western-expansion-ukraine-fascists
A balanced article for me.
I am no fan of Putin or Russia, especially with civil liberty issues and how there vast natural resources have been 'shared' out since communism but I am equally no fan of the western imperialism we have seen for many years never mind the hypocrisy and brazen arrogance of our Governments and a large majority of citizens.
A balanced article for me.
I am no fan of Putin or Russia, especially with civil liberty issues and how there vast natural resources have been 'shared' out since communism but I am equally no fan of the western imperialism we have seen for many years never mind the hypocrisy and brazen arrogance of our Governments and a large majority of citizens.
...and who is defending Western Imperialism.....?
Americans were sold a bunch of lies...about Iraq. We are ashamed about what happened there. Those people are no longer in power.
Seamus Milne views the world through a Manichean perspective where the US is evil and anything which may run contrary to the US is good. I would say he has comedy value but he is in a reality a continuation of Lenin's "useful idiots" or the Gulag apologists that George Orwell was so skilful at eviscerating.
So it seems there is now a rush to have a referendum in Crimea about becoming part of Russia or staying part of the Ukraine. That did not take long at all.
...amazing....
rewarding use of force.
rewarding use of force.
Exactly. I don't know a single US citizen Caf member who is happy with what US did with Iraq but still reading comments here you get the impression that Russia can invade Ukraine because US invaded Iraq and because we have US citizens here.
its the old...'you did it so you have no moral high ground to criticize ' defence.
no one here will say the US or the West in general is squeeky clean...but each situation has to be debated separately. Other than those who have agendas or vested interests....what Russia did is plain wrong. And from what seems to be developing, they are going to get at least some of what they wanted.
no one here will say the US or the West in general is squeeky clean...but each situation has to be debated separately. Other than those who have agendas or vested interests....what Russia did is plain wrong. And from what seems to be developing, they are going to get at least some of what they wanted.
Probably the best solution for all actors there. Russia gets Crimea, Crimea people (mostly Russians) don't have to live on a state they don't like while Ukraine will finaly be free of Russia's influence. Everyone wins (except the minority of Tatars) and this should be a long term solution. A status quo (like Russia keeping the army there and Crimea de facto becoming a part of Russia but de juro being still a part of Ukraine, similar to two Georgian provinces) will be a worse solution which will be unstable and with potential to escelate every minute.ahhh some 'thoughts'..honest
not interested what you are tbh....
The facts are the Ukrainian people threw out a corrupt leader....whether he was elected or not is irrelevant. He would not go they got rid of him. Russia marched into another country...those ethnic Russians were never in danger of their lives. It was just a pretext...Russia does not want Ukraine moving out of their sphere of influence. simple. The future....think Crimea will go back to being under Russian 'influence'...the rest of Ukraine will come closer to the West. No one is going to spill blood over all this...that is what is good...
Business as usual in a few weeks....
...from some ground level reporting it would seem not all ethnic Russians will be happy to be back under Russian rule. they still remember.....
But if this prevents a bloody conflict....well. Lets be honest the West were never going to war over this. The point being made is there really is no defence of what Russia did...but that is now past....
Also y'know, just look at western quality of life(on every index imaginable) compared to the states which made up the USSR, it's clear who made the right economic calls here, folks. In what possible logic can associating yourself with Russia be more beneficial than the west...I mean seriously? I'm no western imperialist, it's just long term common sense.
for some...its a matter of survival.....like I said...think. How many of those Russians felt threatened living in Ukraine? How many Want to join Russia. But how many are actually willing to leave their homeland to move west? Some may...most wont.
Its people being made use off by Political forces with their own agendas.
EDIT: what would be interesting is come back say in 10 years and see the difference in quality of life between Ukraine and Crimea.
Western imperialism goes far far deeper than invading Iraq, it is evident in every aspect of international life, from media to international law to the legitimacy of force in the eyes of Westerners to the whole economic system.
Having said all that, I find people who insist on seeing life through the very simple prism of good vs evil or weast baffling. Things are clearly far more complex than some of the people on both sides here are willing to let on. No,not everyone in Kiev who was protesting was a cuddly, pro Western 'liberal'.In fact, I believe Kiev's chief rabbi advised all the city's Jews to leave after the president fled. There are clearly some incredibly unsavoury elements there. At the same time, they are clearly not all raving fascists and many of them simply wanted a Ukraine which could start moving away from its economic crisis, reliance on Russia and corruption.
The Western leaders criticising Putin for the breach of another country's sovereignty have hypocrisy coming out of their asses, especially considering how busy GB, GB, France and USA especially were in this regard (and remain). Often using minority rights when it suited them as well. They have no leg to stand on whatsoever. Citizens may not have voted for Bush personally (though you did re-elect him.....) but you as a collective persistently elect leaders/keep a political system that produces leaders who drop bombs abroad. This doesn't make what Russia is doing now any more correct. Russia does exactly what the West does, they just do more of it in their back yard.
And democracy is not just the ballot box. However, we are far more accepting of other forms of removing presidents abroad. I personally feel that far more should have been made about our various leaders and what they have done in Vietnam,Iraq, Guantanamo, Algeria, spying, expenses etc etc.There's a lot of corruption in our systems as well. We just keep people just wealthy enough to discourage any real action I guess.
Oh and people comparing Putin to Hitler need to get a fecking grip, including Clinton, who I had a far higher opinion of.
Basically, as Raoul has already pointed out, the West rose at a time when the world started becoming smaller and the whole international political system is built around it. It incentivises powerful states to act in any way to protect their interests because ultimately there is little that can be done to stop them. Nobody could stop Bush and Blair as they went rampaging and I don't think people are going to stop Putin protecting his country's interests in the crimea either. And his country's interests are not around the poor Russians in the Crimea.
we all know that...
as I said...debate each issue separately. Iraq is the one being brought up so often in relation to what happened in Ukraine. That is why it was mentioned. I have expressed my feelings about Britain's role in the thread about Colonialism....
The West is guilty on so many counts. But that does not disqualify the stances taken by the US and certainly the current administration with regards to Russia. Short of going to war....that's the best we can do.
EDIT: Putin should not be given a pass because of past Western indiscretions....
as I said...debate each issue separately. Iraq is the one being brought up so often in relation to what happened in Ukraine. That is why it was mentioned. I have expressed my feelings about Britain's role in the thread about Colonialism....
The West is guilty on so many counts. But that does not disqualify the stances taken by the US and certainly the current administration with regards to Russia. Short of going to war....that's the best we can do.
EDIT: Putin should not be given a pass because of past Western indiscretions....
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....and Danny....I've lost count of the times you have brought up Ron Paul as your 'ideal' alternative. Have you even looked closely at what this utter loon stands for? I mean other than his so called hands off foreign intervention stance.....(His son is not far off btw....comedy central's ratings are fecked when GOP primaries are on for 2016.)
Ad hominem attacks are the best.
How is it I've missed this thread.
For a while I thought I was reading the Syria thread based on the predictable responses from certain posters.
For a while I thought I was reading the Syria thread based on the predictable responses from certain posters.
Do a re-count. Shouldn't be hard counting to one, should it?
I gave Paul as an example, and I don't recall me calling him "ideal". He's imo the least hypocritical of all the other politicians in the US.
But let's not make this about Paul. It's about the American people electing those presidents, so they shouldn't be totally "blameless" for the actions their presidents do. After all, those presidents represent the American people, don't they?
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