Shinji Kagawa

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akash02 said:
Januzaj was more important is what I am saying not that kagawa didn't play.
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Well obviously Kagawa played...

Januzaj was more important and yet when tasked with CAM we performed mediocre in the first half. Kagawa was moved centrally and the entire team's performance improved.

Or do you dispute this and suggest Januzaj had the team performing better first half?
 
Empire said:
Don't hate what you can't understand. LAM does, contrary to what you think, require a different skill set and there IS a difference between Eden Hazard and Juan Mata in styles and to which role they're suited.




I have actually made quite clear in my posts with you that you infer things. And you praised Januzaj for his impact, I merely suggested Januzaj is more suited to the role performed in this current system therefore his impact is understandable and then you say this is a load of rubbish!! LOL is applicable here I think.



The suggestion I made was that Kagawa does what he always has for Japan, it's no different. The role requires a player taking his man on down that left flank so it's no wonder he has struggled. You are blaming Kagawa because he doesn't have the skill set to perform the role he has been tasked with and praising those that do. However you fail to see this should not be a reflection on the ability of the player. Evidently you want Kagawa to adapt and so develop the skill set required to perform down that left flank.
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So what you are saying is:

1. Kagawa is completely and utterly blameless. Moyes and the system he's used is solely to blame.
2. The only way to contribute fro the left side in our system is to play like Ryan Giggs and beat players. If you can't beat your man then you are useless down the left in our system.

You could almost be Mad Winger...
 
Empire said:
Well obviously Kagawa played...

Januzaj was more important and yet when tasked with CAM we performed mediocre in the first half. Kagawa was moved centrally and the entire team's performance improved.

Or do you dispute this and suggest Januzaj had the team performing better first half?
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And there have been times Kagawa has played central and we've still been crap. So if you're saying that swapping them around was the sole reason we improved then I disagree. The entire team picked up their performances in the 2nd half and we played with a much quicker tempo.
 
Still waiting to see a front four of:​


RVP

Kagawa - Rooney - Mata


So far, it seems Moyes likes to play one roaming winger and a winger who will keep the width. However, I'm sure Evra can get up and down the pitch (he does it every week) and give us the width on the left.​
 
akash02 said:
So what you are saying is:

1. Kagawa is completely and utterly blameless. Moyes and the system he's used is solely to blame.
2. The only way to contribute fro the left side in our system is to play like Ryan Giggs and beat players. If you can't beat your man then you are useless down the left in our system.

You could almost be Mad Winger...
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Ah you respond to my post without replying to my points but instead asking questions.

You also compare me with mad winger :lol:

And I've posted several times how it's fine if we sell Kagawa, is that what Mad Winger also thinks?

So yes, I have said Kagawa is tasked with performing a role he is not suited to and with how Moyes has set up this season relying on crosses from out wide then Ryan Giggs and David Beckham would be more suited to the wide roles than a player like Kagawa. You don't agree evidently.

Moyes poor tactics have prompted a change, he will become a good manager and he has learned from his mistakes.

I rate Pirlo but I can't help but think if he played alongside Carrick or Cleverley this season then people would be on his back.
 
akash02 said:
And there have been times Kagawa has played central and we've still been crap. So if you're saying that swapping them around was the sole reason we improved then I disagree. The entire team picked up their performances in the 2nd half and we played with a much quicker tempo.
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Kagawa performs better when we play with a quicker tempo or so everybody argues, so you in fact agree by altering the system his performances will improve? :lol:

So it is the system after all, the tempo and off the ball motion being two critical areas.
 
The team was already playing better before Kagawa was introduced in the 74th min, he contributed to making things easier in the last 15min but in no way he changed the match.
 
Empire said:
Kagawa performs better when we play with a quicker tempo or so everybody argues, so you in fact agree by altering the system his performances will improve? :lol:
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I've only said that about half a hundred times. If weren't so intent on writing essays then you might have noticed
 
Empire you seem to simultaneously lift your opinion above others through long winded passages yet miss even basic points that other people make. Everytime someone responds with something you don't seem to expect your response is to laugh and questions their comprehension. Sometimes you even talk about how society needs more people like you.

But I think it comes down to a simple fact with Kagawa. If you're shite and ineffective most times you play for my club, I'll generally think you're not good enough.
 
Twigginater said:
He quite literally come on and give the ball away with his first two touches.
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For me he appeared ok with his cameo. I just don't understanding the drooling over that performance when he can be much better than that. Now RVP should be benched to accommodate him but if there is one player who would deserve this privilege, it would be Welbeck.
 
acnumber9 said:
Won a trophy in each of the last two seasons and generally progressed further than their German counterparts. Not tom ention Utd comprehensively thrashing their third best team this season.
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You're using the record of a single team, Chelsea, in the Champions League AND Europa League, to argue the Premier League is better?

Ok
 
acnumber9 said:
Won a trophy in each of the last two seasons and generally progressed further than their German counterparts. Not tom ention Utd comprehensively thrashing their third best team this season.
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So it has come down to using the luckiest trophy win in the history of the CL (winning it despite being the worse team in both semifinal fixtures and the final is nothing more than a fluke) and a win in a competition vs. clearly interferior clubs in terms of size (did not stop them from struggling against football giants like Steaua Bukarest or Rubin Kazan, though), where Chelsea only played because of being the first CL champion to crash out of the CL group stages, to show a superiority of the EPL, whom nobody every seriously questioned?

I still fail to see the relevance of all of that in relation to Kagawa. It is not like he only performed vs. the weaker Bundesliga teams. He was good enough in Klopp´s system to be vital in multiple victories over Bayern Munich.

He literally has become a completely different player for United. Not only in terms of performance level but also play style. The primary reasons for that, be it flaws of Kagawa himself (mentality, confidence, versatility), the lack of opportunities and trust given by the manager (no real runs of games, frozen out for longer periods of times, not playing despite injuries of players on his position) or the system (static, too little movement, too reliant on width) were brought up multiple times and discussed over and over again.

There is not one party alone to blame here. It is a mixture of all of the above. Sometimes it is just not working out.
 
Of course he isn't going to pull up any trees with 15 minute cameos every few weeks. He was decent enough for someone who hardly plays.
 
Sphaero said:
So it has come down to using the luckiest trophy win in the history of the CL (winning it despite being the worse team in both semifinal fixtures and the final is nothing more than a fluke) and a win in a competition vs. clearly interferior clubs in terms of size (did not stop them from struggling against football giants like Steaua Bukarest or Rubin Kazan, though), where Chelsea only played because of being the first CL champion to crash out of the CL group stages, to show a superiority of the EPL, whom nobody every seriously questioned?

I still fail to see the relevance of all of that in relation to Kagawa. It is not like he only performed vs. the weaker Bundesliga teams. He was good enough in Klopp´s system to be vital in multiple victories over Bayern Munich.

He literally has become a completely different player for United. Not only in terms of performance level but also play style. The primary reasons for that, be it flaws of Kagawa himself (mentality, confidence, versatility), the lack of opportunities and trust by the manager (no real runs of games, frozen out for longer periods of times, not playing despite injuries of players on his position) or the system (static, too little movement, too reliant on width) were brought up multiple times and discussed over and over again.

There is not one party alone to blame here. It is a mixture of all of the above. Sometimes it is just not working out.
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Good post.
 
Empire said:
So you agree Kagawa's not at fault.
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Are you deliberately being thick?

His performances will improve with a better system (and that goes for all our attacking players) but he should still be doing a lot better.
 
Twigginater said:
Empire you seem to simultaneously lift your opinion above others through long winded passages yet miss even basic points that other people make. Everytime someone responds with something you don't seem to expect your response is to laugh and questions their comprehension. Sometimes you even talk about how society needs more people like you.

But I think it comes down to a simple fact with Kagawa. If you're shite and ineffective most times you play for my club, I'll generally think you're not good enough.
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HAHAHA, how are you Koko?

How comical are you today! You are the man, boy, animal whatever term you prefer, who reads posts and then makes up what points were made. And you are lecturing me about missing the most basic points?

Everytime someone responds with something you don't seem to expect your response is to laugh and questions their comprehension.
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Side effects from the testing? I don't expect anything in response, I adapt and respond accordingly otherwise this would be very boring indeed.

I laugh because view points on here have been comical, not least the contradictions.

I didn't talk about how society needs people like me, I talked about how society needs people like you!!! Your life would be better spent as a Guinea pig my friend.
 
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akash02 said:
Are you deliberately being thick?

His performances will improve with a better system (and that goes for all our attacking players) but he should still be doing a lot better.
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Quick tempo, short passes, off the ball motion is his style. How should he being doing better when there is no quick tempo, the short pass isn't often available and the off the ball motion is non-existant?

Had he been skilled in long passes or crosses or at beating his man only then would he be more suited to his current role. Even when he has drifted centrally the preference is to get it out wide, and it is plausible to think Moyes is behind this. Furthermore he has played with the likes of Welbeck, Young and Valencia far more than Rooney, RVP, Januzaj or Mata around him, he can't be blamed when he tries to link up with them but they aren't receptive to it.

As of now he is offering himself for short passes, moves around a lot, tries killer through balls, presses the opposition and plays the simple one-two passing game he always has done. If the manager doesn't want to use him for this but instead something else as evident by the system he has employed then Kagawa is not the one at fault.

It's different if he wasn't moving around as much as he is, he wasn't offering himself for the simple short pass, he wasn't trying to play clever through balls, he wasn't pressing the opposition, he wasn't trying to get the players moving and the game flowing. But he is doing exactly what he does, the team aren't responding as evident by that video when he comes short they still play it long!!

Even at Dortmund he didn't influence the game as an individual, his greatest quality was how he connected with the team around him. He is doing the same things but the team seem to have become more static as the season has progressed with the exception of the last two premier league games.

And you call me thick? Yet you are clearly suggesting he needs to adapt to the left flank role required at United and then denying you made such a suggestion. I'm not quite sure what you expect of Kagawa if you don't expect him to take his man on like Giggs, cross it like Beckham or ping it about the pitch like Scholes.

All this talk of essays is worrying. I am writing a post, an essay would far exceed the maximum allowance of characters. If you and your friend twiggy consider a post more in depth than the average on here an essay then may god help you.

I mean he'll go on international duty and do exactly what he does here for Japan and perform just fine.

So tell me, what more do you want Kagawa to do?

I'll tell you what I want, I want United to improve the system and players like Kagawa and Mata will begin to thrive and RVP will regain the form we have come to expect from him. This seems to be happening.
 
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adexkola said:
You're using the record of a single team, Chelsea, in the Champions League AND Europa League, to argue the Premier League is better?

Ok
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Are people here not using the efforts of two teams in one season to prove otherwise?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Is Kagawa now being credited with the improved team performance of the last 20 minutes?

The madness of this fecking thread in a nutshell...
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It's like a cult in here. I wonder would it be quite the same if he were from another nation.
 
Sphaero said:
So it has come down to using the luckiest trophy win in the history of the CL (winning it despite being the worse team in both semifinal fixtures and the final is nothing more than a fluke) and a win in a competition vs. clearly interferior clubs in terms of size (did not stop them from struggling against football giants like Steaua Bukarest or Rubin Kazan, though), where Chelsea only played because of being the first CL champion to crash out of the CL group stages, to show a superiority of the EPL, whom nobody every seriously questioned?

I still fail to see the relevance of all of that in relation to Kagawa. It is not like he only performed vs. the weaker Bundesliga teams. He was good enough in Klopp´s system to be vital in multiple victories over Bayern Munich.

He literally has become a completely different player for United. Not only in terms of performance level but also play style. The primary reasons for that, be it flaws of Kagawa himself (mentality, confidence, versatility), the lack of opportunities and trust given by the manager (no real runs of games, frozen out for longer periods of times, not playing despite injuries of players on his position) or the system (static, too little movement, too reliant on width) were brought up multiple times and discussed over and over again.

There is not one party alone to blame here. It is a mixture of all of the above. Sometimes it is just not working out.
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You've missed the point a little when dismissing the Europa League. If it were so easy and the Bundesliga was so strong then you would expect their nation to be pulling up more trees. If we're going on luck then Dortmund were extremely fortunate to squeeze past Malaga last season.
 
Kagawa will start against Olympiakos. That's a certainty.
 
acnumber9 said:
Are people here not using the efforts of two teams in one season to prove otherwise?
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The Premier League is not as good as it was back in 2007-2010, when English clubs regularly strolled into the semi finals. The competition has grown stronger in the mean time. I think Bayern's thrashing of Barcelona, and Dortmund's elimination of Real last season has placed their league where they compete in weekly, ahead of the rest. The Premier League doesn't have a solid record in the past few years, bar a Chelsea side that left many unconvinced enroute to the trophy. No one could argue Dortmund and Bayern in the final weren't the best 2 sides in the world at that moment.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Is Kagawa now being credited with the improved team performance of the last 20 minutes?

The madness of this fecking thread in a nutshell...
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Actually no, I credited him for making the third goal possible that's all.

I said he accelerated towards the box but when he was unable to receive the ball and Rooney had no options he ran back quickly and provided a short pass option to Rooney, this mean't Rooney could move further afield where he was instrumental in the third goal. Had Kagawa not continually provided the short option to maintain possession we would have been forced to play a longer, more risky pass due to lack of alternatives.

Many people disagreed with me arguing Kagawa's role wasn't important in the goal. I made clear what he did was not more skilful than what happened in the final third (it was basic football) however it was important since without somebody offering himself for that short pass then the ball would probably have gone long.
 
adexkola said:
The Premier League is not as good as it was back in 2007-2010, when English clubs regularly strolled into the semi finals. The competition has grown stronger in the mean time. I think Bayern's thrashing of Barcelona, and Dortmund's elimination of Real last season has placed their league where they compete in weekly, ahead of the rest. The Premier League doesn't have a solid record in the past few years, bar a Chelsea side that left many unconvinced enroute to the trophy. No one could argue Dortmund and Bayern in the final weren't the best 2 sides in the world at that moment.
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Two teams is not an entire league.
 
acnumber9 said:
It's like a cult in here. I wonder would it be quite the same if he were from another nation.
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Why does his nationality come into it? Empire made quite a simple and obvious point - what Kagawa did in that move is something that hardly any of our players do and it's stuff like that which makes our football more fluid.
 
For me (im in the 'kagawa hasn't been good enough camp, but also we aren't using him very well'), Mata's performances have shown Kagawa what he should be doing. Mata plays wide but can wander all over the pitch, does that, and succeeds in controlling the game. Kags will have to find his place in the team, and when he's given a chance with Mata/Rooney/RVP hopefully he can grab it
 
I'm way too mature to point fingers at specific posters, but I have to say this: in the last couple of weeks/months, I've seen several posters in this thread who are way more fanboyish than me. There have been many occasions where I've read nice words about Kagawa and thought to myself: "WTF? You're going way overboard!" But the thing is, I don't call these posters out on it. For two reasons:

1) I'm a lover, not a hater.
2) The stronger the Kagawa support, the more alienated the haters become. Had it not been for the fact that some of the haters are "prominent" posters, then the Kagawa critics would have been hounded out of this thread already.

One of the reasons I'm not so active in this thread anymore, is because I don't need to be. Before, the Kagawa support was 50/50, pretty much. That's why I felt that I needed to make a stand. Now though, it's more like 80/20(if not more) in favor of Kagawa. To top it off, I see posters bringing back stats and facts that I used to post. Whether or not they've subconsciously picked up these stats because of me, is irrelevant. The fact that they're being posted is more than good enough for me.

So to summarize, this thread now contains:
- Overwhelming Kagawa support
- Good stats and facts constantly being brought back up
- Several posters being way more fanboyish than me..

This makes me happy. Keep up the good work guys! :)
 
Mad Winger said:
I'm way too mature to point fingers at specific posters, but I have to say this: in the last couple of weeks/months, I've seen several posters in this thread who are way more fanboyish than me. There have been many occasions where I've read nice words about Kagawa and thought to myself: "WTF? You're going way overboard!" But the thing is, I don't call these posters out on it. For two reasons:

1) I'm a lover, not a hater.
2) The stronger the Kagawa support, the more alienated the haters become. Had it not been for the fact that some of the haters are "prominent" posters, then the Kagawa critics would have been hounded out of this thread already.

One of the reasons I'm not so active in this thread anymore, is because I don't need to be. Before, the Kagawa support was 50/50, pretty much. That's why I felt that I needed to make a stand. Now though, it's more like 80/20(if not more) in favor of Kagawa. To top it off, I see posters bringing back stats and facts that I used to post. Whether or not they've subconsciously picked up these stats because of me, is irrelevant. The fact that they're being posted is more than good enough for me.

So to summarize, this thread now contains:
- Overwhelming Kagawa support
- Good stats and facts constantly being brought back up
- Several posters being way more fanboyish than me..

This makes me happy. Keep up the good work guys! :)
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Why would any United fan hate Kagawa? :confused:
 
Sultan said:
Why would any United fan hate Kagawa? :confused:
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Forgive me, I was a bit caught up in the words kids use these days:lol:

Isn't a "hater" just someone who's very critical of someone, to the point where a lot of the critique is completely unjustified? Obviously there aren't any posters who hate Kagawa in the literal sense of the word. At least I hope not!
 
Mad Winger said:
blah blah

1) I'm a lover, not a hater.
2) The stronger the Kagawa support, the more alienated the haters become. Had it not been for the fact that some of the haters are "prominent" posters, then the Kagawa critics would have been hounded out of this thread already.

blah blah
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Fair play, but please stahp. You are fishing for attention here.
 
Mad Winger said:
I'm way too mature to point fingers at specific posters, but I have to say this: in the last couple of weeks/months, I've seen several posters in this thread who are way more fanboyish than me. There have been many occasions where I've read nice words about Kagawa and thought to myself: "WTF? You're going way overboard!" But the thing is, I don't call these posters out on it. For two reasons:

1) I'm a lover, not a hater.
2) The stronger the Kagawa support, the more alienated the haters become. Had it not been for the fact that some of the haters are "prominent" posters, then the Kagawa critics would have been hounded out of this thread already.

One of the reasons I'm not so active in this thread anymore, is because I don't need to be. Before, the Kagawa support was 50/50, pretty much. That's why I felt that I needed to make a stand. Now though, it's more like 80/20(if not more) in favor of Kagawa. To top it off, I see posters bringing back stats and facts that I used to post. Whether or not they've subconsciously picked up these stats because of me, is irrelevant. The fact that they're being posted is more than good enough for me.

So to summarize, this thread now contains:
- Overwhelming Kagawa support
- Good stats and facts constantly being brought back up
- Several posters being way more fanboyish than me..

This makes me happy. Keep up the good work guys! :)
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Support of any of our players is terrific, but when it's used as an unfair stick to beat moyes with then it's not very constructive. Saying 'no #10 would play well out wide in these tactics' was all well and good before Mata, but now that Mata is doing just that hopefully people are coming to see that Kagawa needs to adapt to Moyes and not the other way round. It does seem like he's trying hard and when he hits top form it's gonna be a great day for all of us
 
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