The EU deal was merely the tip of the iceberg in terms of public discontent with Yanukovich. His corruption was sufficiently rampant and pervasive to where he had lost complete credibility to govern.
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The EU deal was merely the tip of the iceberg in terms of public discontent with Yanukovich. His corruption was sufficiently rampant and pervasive to where he had lost complete credibility to govern.
Posted by a Newbie:
Would you be as understanding if the same happened in the USA? Armed, discontent Americans storming the White House because it turns out the elected president is corrupt and has lost all credibility to govern?
If the US elected a President who imprisoned his chief political opponent, embezzled billions of state funds into foreign accounts, and brazenly bragged about it, whilst the income gap between rich and poor continued to grow - then yes of course, I'm sure most Governments, irrespective of Democratic, nascent Democratic, or authoritarian, would likely fall.
Hitler was legally elected btw.
Great, so now we have a Putin/Hitler comparison, and a Yanukovich/Hitler comparison.
And George Washington was elected without a popular vote.
Enlightened absolutism is the only way.
Enlightened absolutism is the only way.
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If it was mainly about those things, then why was it called the "Euromaidan"?
Raoul, I'm sorry to say that you come across in this thread as extremely blinkered. You justify the coup of an elected Government by undemocratic means because of corruption, yet here is Sir Matt quoting Ukrainian laws quoting why a referendum with Crimean population is undemocratic.
Out of curiosity, if the majority of the Crimean population hold a referendum and vote to join Russia, would you support the decision as it's a democratic vote by an area? Or would you dismiss that as Russian propaganda?
Out of curiosity, if the majority of the Crimean population hold a referendum and vote to join Russia, would you support the decision as it's a democratic vote by an area? Or would you dismiss that as Russian propaganda?
I never said that the referendum is undemocratic. It was clarifying that it is unconstitutional based on Ukrainian law. However, the referendum will not be fair and free with "Russian" military stationed in the Crimea. There is no reason to expect observers to be present at the polls since the Russian military has barred entrance by OSCE military observers.
So you think the people in Crimea will vote for joining with Russia because they are scared of Russian military? I mean, Sarah Pahlin came out with better shit than that man.
look...the guy pushed it too far. he was arrogant and knew the russkies were behind him...so thought no one will Dare....
Revolution happens...it happened here. The Russians in Crimea were never in danger of their lives. I think Raoul's 5 myths need to be addressed first....
Revolution happens...it happened here. The Russians in Crimea were never in danger of their lives. I think Raoul's 5 myths need to be addressed first....
US government doesn't give a feck about democracy and freedom in Ukraine or the plight of its people. They want to rule the world, they always did, and they'l use whatever means necessary. The funny thing about it is that they still view Russia as their adversary and their lackeys from EU are more than happy to help. The real super power is China and before you know it, they'll start wiping their asses with American world domination plans.
blah blah....
No, the people who would organize against joining Russia, the 42% of the population who aren't ethnic Russians, are not going to go out and demonstrate or campaign in the face of the Russian military though, are they? They don't have to persuade people to vote for Russia, just have to dissuade people who might vote against it from showing up at the polls.
Well it may not be as dire as antihenry points out, but you can't claim that Russia is a big bad wolf with a dictator and US has the best interests of the world. US has the same problems in their own country. In the bible belt, there's discrimination of all sorts, anti abortion laws etc etc, yet somehow it's the bastion of free thoughts.
So you've gone ahead and made the assumption that all Russians will vote for Russia and all non Russians will vote for Ukraine? You are basing this on what exactly? Haven't you thought about the possibility that Crimean people do not want an Ukraine government caught up between EU and Russia and may want to join with Russia? I have no idea and I have to rely on reports from the news outlets but at least try to keep an open mind eh?
Nor were the Ukrainians in Kiev, who started the "revolution".
accountability.....that's the difference.
What accountability?
...and who said they were. They got rid of the guy for the reasons that have been stated numerous times.
indeed....who is Putin accountable to?
Here's what I can claim:
1.) the US has no interest in ruling the world and especially not Ukraine
2.) China is decades away from marching American military and economic power
3.) Russia isn't exactly acting as if they want to move past an adversarial relationship with the us
4.) Russia is a big bad wolf with an authoritarian regime, regardless of the merits of any other country
5.) the social issues in the us are much better than in Russia
Are you now switching from "Crimeans' lives are not in danger" to "Crimean people have absolutely no reason to part with Ukraine under the current government?", unlike the Ukrainians in Kiev who actually had reasons?
I don't know what you mean or to whom you were replying, but are you trying to suggest that the US is actually accountable to anybody?
you are the one who is switching...look at your reply. Crimea is part of Ukraine...still is in spite of Russian occupation.
we do have elections you know...
who is switching? look at your reply. btw do address Raoul's 5 myths...if you can that is....
So you do agree that the Crimeans have their reasons to part with Ukraine under the new government.
And about those "5 myths", it's a laughable article that doesn't need an reply really. Most of its content has been discussed already in the thread anyway.
That's actually not the reason.
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RPT UPDATE 1-Crimea invites OSCE observers for referendum on joining Russia
(Reuters) - Ukraine's Crimea region has invited the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) to send a mission to observe Sunday's referendum on joining Russia, Russia's RIA news agency said on Monday.
It said the invitation had been issued to the Vienna-based security and human rights organisation by the region's pro-Russian parliament.
But later in the day, a OSCE spokeswoman said Crimea could not invite observers as the region was not a full-fledged state and therefore not a member of the 57-member organisation.
"As far as we know, Crimea is not a participating state of the OSCE, so it would be sort of hard for them to invite us," she said.
She also said that Ukraine, which is an OSCE member, sent no invitation and that the organisation "respects the full territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine".
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/10/ukraine-crisis-referendum-osce-idUSL6N0M73AP20140310
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They chose not to be present at the polls, and I think everybody knows why.
I live in US and I like US, because of it's unrivalled philanthropy to many major causes, but US rightly or wrongly plays the role of the policeman of the world. US may not having interest in acquiring other countries, but they have vested interested in democratic countries and continuously handle sops to the nations that listens to them. They use their veto vote many times for Israel in spite of what the situation demands though. Ukraine and Crimea anyway is a special case, it's not as if California was given to Mexico and now they want to join back to US again, incomparable situations. At the end of the day, it all boils down to containing Russia instead of what's best for Crimea or Ukraine.
I am assuming that a sizable portion of the non-Russians will vote against it, particularly the Tatars, and some Russians may vote to remain. The Tatars will not want to live in Russia for obvious reasons. I don't deny that the referendum would, if held without a Russian military presence, likely vote Russian, but the legitimacy of any results of a referendum under occupation will be questionable.
If parts of Crimea votes to stay with Ukraine what right would the rest of the Crimea and the Russian occupation force have to force them into joining Russia?
Have we accepted yet that Russia has invaded Crimea or are people still arguing that they are allowed to scuttle ships across Ukrainian harbours as part of basing treaty etc?
Have we accepted yet that Russia has invaded Crimea or are people still arguing that they are allowed to scuttle ships across Ukrainian harbours as part of basing treaty etc?
What parts of it are laughable?
Haven't had the time to read the whole thing but quickly skimmed through point 2 of the article. Crimean Russians are best to assess how they have perceived the threat from the new neo-fascist Kiev government. The first thing the new government did was to abolish the law which guaranteed to usage of the Russian language. That's a threat.
Thugs were caught in masses in Crime trying to instigate some sort of disorder. Many of the arrested youth admitted being paid up to 300 EUR for causing trouble. Intentional destabilisation instigated by Kiev, that's a threat.
Read reports in Ynet and Haaretz about attack on Jews in Kiev, attempts to set fire on the synagogue, attempted murder of Jews by the right wing thugs roaming the streets, etc. That's a real threat and if I were a Russian, surrounded by the Ukrainian army which is now under the command of the new government, I'd feel shit uncomfortable. The fact that as a Russian in Crimea you are in the majority and therefore you shouldn't feel threatened doesn't mean anything of you're not in control of the police/ army etc.
This was never really a prominent issue until the Kremlin propaganda campaign began . Crimeans are unfortunately being manipulated by a Russian smear campaign to foment paranoia of something that doesn't exist, as a pretext to consolidate a Russian invasion of Ukrainian land. There is no evidence of any sort of Fascist takeover of Crimea or Ukraine for that matter. The Svoboda people have little support anywhere other than a couple of provinces in the far west next to Poland, so its basically a non issue, as is the language issue which has rightfully been a hot topic of debate among Ukrainian citizens for sometime.
The referendum is a ginned up ploy by the Kremlin to attempt to legitimize the next step of Putin's plan, which will be a complete annexation of the peninsula. Not only is it unconstitutional, it also offers no legitimate discourse among citizens that one might expect from such a referendum - active discussions among citizens, civil society, the flow of information between media and citizens. It is basically a referendum at gunpoint - which is why it wont carry any weight and will actually result in sanctions on Putin.
This is the sort of laughable choice the Kremlin is framing for Crimean citizens - Complete fascism in Crimea or Putin's Russia.
What if any parameters will this referendum be operating under out of interest?
Will a simple majority be sufficient for the Crimea to secede from Ukraine? Any minimum threshold as far as turnout goes?
I shouldn't imagine that serious campaigning or TV debates are likely to have featured much.
Will a simple majority be sufficient for the Crimea to secede from Ukraine? Any minimum threshold as far as turnout goes?
I shouldn't imagine that serious campaigning or TV debates are likely to have featured much.