Sorry, thats totally untrue.
Pep Guardiola's Bayern
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Sorry, thats totally untrue.
Indeed, absolute bollocks. LVG's side are nothing like Guardiola's.
LvG's football is closer to last season's Bayern than this IMO.
Yeah but Lewandowski is hardly a help in this match now is he?
It's not. The way Bayern look right now, that's the way the looked under van Gaal.
We'd turn that dreamy Spanish duo into a trio...
It is difference of course. But the emphasis is still on maintaining as much possession as you can. A good team will always close down any space for a team that hogs the ball so much to stop them from passing the ball in the net. Barca had Messi and Iniesta who are two of the all time best dribbles in closed spaces so it did not matter. Even though Spanish NT tik tika has been successful, they have always struggled to score goals. They strung together 4 1-0 victories in knockouts in WC which needed goals from corners, offside and ET.
Indeed. LvG actually recognises that in football you need a defence.
Nope it's not. Possession was already his major stick when he was a Bayern manager. Worked well for them in the beginning but pretty much ended like it does for Bayern currently. They had problems dealing with compact teams that could use the space they left with their high defensive line.
And it's not surprising really both managers have the same school of thought behind their football philosophy.
Yeap, I dunno who it was but some Bayern fan stated here that they simply switched to LVG's system towards the end
Took the words out of my mouth, or hands if we are being pedantic.
This is, after all, his first season with us. Granted he has made a lot of changes and mistakes which he shouldn't have, I'll wait and judge him after his second season. He has a lot of thinking to do in the summer, hopefully this tie with Madrid has taught him a lesson. Our season still hasn't been awful by any stretch of the imagination. Semi-final of the CL, which incidentally no team has managed to defend in the CL era and still in with a chance of a domestic double. And some fans on the Bayern forums are calling for him to get sacked - pathetic.
Is it Pep's arrogance?
There's a difference between losing and getting completely outsmarted like this. I'm sure most think that this wouldn't have happened last year which is why Pep's style is under scrutiny.
Real lost 5-0 to Barcelona playing counter attacking vs tiki taka. Sometimes great teams just destroy other sides. There's not some deeper meaning to it.
Possession and tiki taka are very different, Bayern under Van Gaal were much more direct than they are now. I do agree they had defensive issues as Van Gaal just couldn't get the right balance, but I still maintain their football then was closer to what it was last year rather than now.
There is a big difference between tik tika with Messi and without him.
What actually is "tiki taka"? If it's the way Barcelona played under Guardiola then this Bayern team don't play tiki taka.
Can't speak with great knowledge on LVG's style but we played the Bayern side of van Gaal's in 2010. I was there for the game at OT and that Bayern played nothing like this Pep version. They were very direct and dynamic.
And Mourinho learned from that. Pep still has no answer when tika taka doesn't work.
It's Xavi, Busquets and Iniesta that make the difference imo. Messi makes it fun to watch but Spain won everything there is to win without him.
It took Mourinho 3 years to be fair.
He didn't learn for years. This could be Guardiola's 0-5.
Spanish NT use their tik tika as a defensive tactics stringing up 1-0 wins or even winning on pens if needed. Completely different. Barca has also taken apart far better caliber of teams than what Spain faced. They struggled to break down a medicore Portugal team for starters while Barca completely dismantled a great United team in 08/09 and subsequently dominated a very good Madrid team for years
Tiki Taka is the Spanish variant of total football it has a lot of the same core principals and I would describe it as a principle that evolved out of total football, the passing triangles, the compactness, the emphasis on possession and control over the game it's all at the core of both philosophies.
In their first season I agree that van Gaal's philosophy worked quite but in the second season they started to lack vertical penetration the passing was too much focused on securing possession and this at least for me seems like a reoccurring pattern with both philosophies as well. Remember Barce through Pep's final years? The exact same happened especially against very defensive teams the passing from side to side didn't do much for them.
i agree. football fans are a fickle, opinionated people. if you just look at today, two of the goals were from set pieces and another was from shit defending. that being said ribery and mandzukic have been very dissapointing, and schweinsteiger's been a waste of space.
i really think that with thiago, this would be an entirely different game, as you would have the creative and technically skilled player in the middle that you NEED to play in guardiola's style.
It didn't really, all the other classicos after that were tight affairs even if it did take Madrid a while to actually start winning them. Mourinho changed his system for those games right away after the 5-0.
They won a World Cup and two European Championships. They're the most successful national side of all time.
You're going to need to try a little harder to downplay that.
So tiki taka is just possession football? Many teams play it then, I'm not sure what relevance Messi has.
For all the criticism of Pep "needing a big target man" and that he should "put more crosses into the box", tonight is as good as an example as any of why it's not as simple as that. He got it badly wrong tonight, but this isn't the same style as before - if he'd used similar tactics to when he was at Barcelona they'd probably be doing a lot better.
Bayern are so flat and completely without dynamism that it's pretty sad to watch.
They're not even going to score over 180 minutes of football against a team who hardly defensive powerhouses.
They're not even going to score over 180 minutes of football against a team who hardly defensive powerhouses.
its been like watching United away at Everton and then watching it again a week later
all passing, no edge or killer instinct
I agree that total football is what inspired tiki taka and that LvG likes possesion. My point is that he is also a lot more direct in attacking teams than Pep and that was the case with His Bayern team too. Their biggest issue at the time was how frail they were defensively and the fact that their squad was not as good as it is today. What I am trying to say is that in case he does manage United, we will a very different style of football than the one we're seeing today from Bayern.
They need a fundamental rebuilding job. And time.
How can he use same tactics as Barca, when he has no one who can play the role of Barca's best player? Messi's false 9 role made Barca dominate other teams so easily. We all saw the difference last season when Messi was out injured and Barca were close to going out against both Milan and PSG, let alone the hammering they got from Bayern.
It is not just about the target man. It is the fact he removed Martinez from the team who was a very big reason why Bayern won the CL last season. Moved away from double pivot system in MF or used two wrong players as midfield two. He also has not used Muller well who was again a big part of CL win
Folks are making some really sweeping generalisations out here based on ill-informed assumptions. It's just his first season there and managers need time to implement their style on the team - especially someone so obsessed with minor details as he is. He's done really well to win the Bundesliga + get to the semi-finals of Europe while adjusting to a new league, new players and a new culture. He's clearly experimented with a lot of different strategies and those things take time to bed in. It might not have happened this year but next year we'll definitely see improvements in Bayern. Also it must be taken into account that no team has ever retained the Champion's League so history was definitely against them. Not to mention their 2 best players Robben and Ribery are both over 30 and age is catching up with them.
BTW All this hatred for possession based football is rather disturbing to say the least. Football goes in phases and teams adapt to different strategies. eg. What worked in the 70s with Ajax didn't translate in later years. Every great team gets found out over time as teams started devising counter-measures. So to say that tiki-taka is dead just because you don't like it/ have an irrational hatred for it is mighty unfair. Need I remind people that this year boring useless possession based strategy ripped Madrid's counter attacking football to shreds in the 6-0 rout. And their dominance over us in the final at Wembley was probably the most one sided performance ever. Football is a constantly evolving sport - sometimes it's counter attack > tiki taka; other times it's totally the reverse. Styles of play don't become shit all of a sudden. It just need retooling. Some strategies just get recycled after a few years. Like the pressing fad that was originally Sacchi's concept at Milan and was later considered dead but has now resurfaced with every man and his dog paying emphasis to it.
Also the hatred for Guardiola is staggering. He has already achieved at 43 what most manager can dream of and has maybe 25 years left in the tank. He hasn't become a bad coach overnight based on one semi final loss. Every great manager has gotten trounced one time or the other - including Sir Alex, Jose, Sir Matt, Shankly whoever. That certainly doesn't mean they're inept. Now this is not a defence of him but all this knee jerking is rather premature. Now Ancelotti is being hailed as the best tactician and people are suggesting him as the next United boss for owning Guardiola when his fully stacked Milan of Maldini, Cafu, Nesta, Pirlo, Stam, Seedorf, Kaka, Shevcheno capitulated to freaking Rafa Benitez's rag tag group at Liverpool in spectacular fashion. Forget that they got hammered by Deportivo a year beforee that. Carlo ain't no Saint either.. Perspective people. No need to go overboard.
BTW All this hatred for possession based football is rather disturbing to say the least. Football goes in phases and teams adapt to different strategies. eg. What worked in the 70s with Ajax didn't translate in later years. Every great team gets found out over time as teams started devising counter-measures. So to say that tiki-taka is dead just because you don't like it/ have an irrational hatred for it is mighty unfair. Need I remind people that this year boring useless possession based strategy ripped Madrid's counter attacking football to shreds in the 6-0 rout. And their dominance over us in the final at Wembley was probably the most one sided performance ever. Football is a constantly evolving sport - sometimes it's counter attack > tiki taka; other times it's totally the reverse. Styles of play don't become shit all of a sudden. It just need retooling. Some strategies just get recycled after a few years. Like the pressing fad that was originally Sacchi's concept at Milan and was later considered dead but has now resurfaced with every man and his dog paying emphasis to it.
Also the hatred for Guardiola is staggering. He has already achieved at 43 what most manager can dream of and has maybe 25 years left in the tank. He hasn't become a bad coach overnight based on one semi final loss. Every great manager has gotten trounced one time or the other - including Sir Alex, Jose, Sir Matt, Shankly whoever. That certainly doesn't mean they're inept. Now this is not a defence of him but all this knee jerking is rather premature. Now Ancelotti is being hailed as the best tactician and people are suggesting him as the next United boss for owning Guardiola when his fully stacked Milan of Maldini, Cafu, Nesta, Pirlo, Stam, Seedorf, Kaka, Shevcheno capitulated to freaking Rafa Benitez's rag tag group at Liverpool in spectacular fashion. Forget that they got hammered by Deportivo a year beforee that. Carlo ain't no Saint either.. Perspective people. No need to go overboard.
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Like I said I agree that in the first season with him that was the case. The team looked really good in attack but wouldn't you agree that towards the second season there were a lot of those games where Baern seemed to lack any vertical penetration and directness?
Errm you seriously think Spanish NT are better than Barca at their peak? No chance IMO.
all down to how ineffective and technically inadequate kroos and schweinsteiger are imo. they don't have the touch or on ball ability of a xavi/niesta/busquets, or like thiago, to control the midfield and compose the posession. instead the ball is being pushed out needlessly to the sides to robben and ribery because kroos and schweinsteiger just don't have the composure or skill to play in the middle under pressure that tiki-tika invites.
They are clear evidence that tiki taka works without Messi. Which you claimed it didn't. Clearly that is wrong.
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