Russia Discussion

The article reads like a half throughout advocacy piece for Putin's policy. No mention of Russia's instigation of this mess through over a decade of bullying the Ukrainians through energy threats and now invasions and land grabs, and how such actions drew the US and Europe into getting involved.

Well, you do realize that there are two sides to every story? According to you and a few other US posters here everything that's wrong in Ukraine is Russia's fault. It's fine to criticize Russia and its president, but somehow the Western powers are never guilty of anything despite seemingly being in the middle of everything.

Russian actions weren't the reason US and EU got involved. They were always involved. US State Dept and CIA are running the show from Kiev now, it's an open secret. You don't think they just happened to settle in there by pure accident as a result of Maidan? They planned it, supported it and are currently ruling Ukraine through their puppets. It was never about Ukraine or Ukrainians. It's geopolitical power play by Washington and their EU lackeys to undermine Russia's influence in the region and it's been in the making for a very long time.
 
What?
1. No way he is being seen like soft here. He passed this stage after the "We will corner the terrorists in the toilet and wipe them out" press-conference, which was in 1999 or in 2000, I think. He is the manliest man in the whole world, Kim Irs kind of figure almost. He stands against the corrupt America and all the rotten West that don't want our country to be great once again - and he frightens them when they hear him talking the hard truth about the international relations.

2. Russia still has about 750 000 of manpower and an incredible amount of money thrown into the army budget every year. No way that Ukraine can match that - neither could've Georgia earlier. It wouldn't be enough against NATO, of course - 80% of the war equipment is from the soviet times, but the Ukraine can do literally nothing against it, considering the civil war (I think we can say that this is civil war already).

I still don't understand what NATO and USA are going to do. And I really think/fear/hope, I don't know, that they're going to let this slide. An open full-time war can still result into the nuclear one - nobody could realistically imagine that right now, but who could've imagine that Russia would really invade the Ukraine? The risks is too high and they have they economical levers to play with.

The reason why he comes out with these statements is to satisfy the Russian public's demand to appear tough. So I mean is that many Russians will regard him as soft if he doesn't make these statements.
As for the military, the fact is that despite the manpower Russian military has been neglected. You mention incredible amounts of money. But it's still only a fraction of what, for example, the US & China spend. The Ukraine military is also significantly strong enough to stand a very good fight even without NATO intervention (which would be unlikely). A full scale land war in the Ukraine would neither benefit countries and would almost certainly bankrupt Russia and definitely the Ukraine. A civil war is a different story from a full scale land war between 2 nations.

Finally, the West is not rotten and corrupt. The West is just stupid, hypocritical and shouldn't get involved in my opinion. Further, Westerners have nothing against Russians and certainly most Westerners don't mind Russia being great. In fact the West has great respect for Russia and regard Russia as great already!! That is the public opinion in countries like the UK and the Netherlands. I think the problem that the West have with Russia is than rather than using diplomatic and democratic means (most people realise that large area's of Eastern Ukraine should probably be Russian anyway) Russia seems to ignore international law and do want they want without being held responsible. So it's not the fact that parts of Ukraine probably should not fall under Ukaine atomony that's the problem with the West, it's more the way the Russians go about things that doesn't hold well with Western governments (which personally I think is hypocritical of the West anyway; re: Iraq...).
 
The reason why he comes out with these statements is to satisfy the Russian public's demand to appear tough. So I mean is that many Russians will regard him as soft if he doesn't make these statements.
As for the military, the fact is that despite the manpower Russian military has been neglected. You mention incredible amounts of money. But it's still only a fraction of what, for example, the US & China spend. The Ukraine military is also significantly strong enough to stand a very good fight even without NATO intervention (which would be unlikely). A full scale land war in the Ukraine would neither benefit countries and would almost certainly bankrupt Russia and definitely the Ukraine. A civil war is a different story from a full scale land war between 2 nations.

Finally, the West is not rotten and corrupt. The West is just stupid, hypocritical and shouldn't get involved in my opinion. Further, Westerners have nothing against Russians and certainly most Westerners don't mind Russia being great. In fact the West has great respect for Russia and regard Russia as great already!! That is the public opinion in countries like the UK and the Netherlands. I think the problem that the West have with Russia is than rather than using diplomatic and democratic means (most people realise that large area's of Eastern Ukraine should probably be Russian anyway) Russia seems to ignore international law and do want they want without being held responsible. So it's not the fact that parts of Ukraine probably should not fall under Ukaine atomony that's the problem with the West, it's more the way the Russians go about things that doesn't hold well with Western governments (which personally I think is hypocritical of the West anyway; re: Iraq...).

Ukraine military doesn't stand a chance against Russian army. Not that it matters, because I hope it won't get to that.
 
It's geopolitical power play by Washington and their EU lackeys to undermine Russia's influence in the region and it's been in the making for a very long time.

That's just complete & utter bull shit. The US & EU have no geographical interest in the Ukraine & South West Russia. It's just complete bullshit. In fact whilst all this has been going on the EU and Russia have just signed a new gas deal. The problem is one of ideology, not about geographical interests.
 
Well, you do realize that there are two sides to every story? According to you and a few other US posters here everything that's wrong in Ukraine is Russia's fault. It's fine to criticize Russia and its president, but somehow the Western powers are never guilty of anything despite seemingly being in the middle of everything.

Russian actions weren't the reason US and EU got involved. They were always involved. US State Dept and CIA are running the show from Kiev now, it's an open secret. You don't think they just happened to settle in there by pure accident as a result of Maidan? They planned it, supported it and are currently ruling Ukraine through their puppets. It was never about Ukraine or Ukrainians. It's geopolitical power play by Washington and their EU lackeys to undermine Russia's influence in the region and it's been in the making for a very long time.

Pretty much. Without Russian interference, Ukraine would be more integrated into Europe, and with that would come a better way of life for Ukrainians.
 
Pretty much. Without Russian interference, Ukraine would be more integrated into Europe, and with that would come a better way of life for Ukrainians.

Why would that mean a better way of life for the Ukrainians?
 
Seeing that Ukrainian forces are now murdering innocent civilians, is NATO going to bomb Ukraine in order to prevent any further massacres?
 
Pretty much. Without Russian interference, Ukraine would be more integrated into Europe, and with that would come a better way of life for Ukrainians.

Maybe in a Disney movie. Look at the ex-Yugoslav republics, nearly two decades after the war and super close to Europe, go ask them if they have a 'better way of life' now. I am really struggling to take you seriously sometimes.
 
Here's an interesting piece on what is going on in Ukraine.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict?CMP=twt_gu
The threat of war in Ukraine is growing. As the unelected government in Kiev declares itself unable to control the rebellion in the country's east, John Kerry brands Russia a rogue state. The US and the European Union step up sanctions against the Kremlin, accusing it of destabilising Ukraine. The White House is reported to be set on a new cold war policywith the aim of turning Russia into a "pariah state".

That might be more explicable if what is going on in eastern Ukraine now were not the mirror image of what took place in Kiev a couple of months ago. Then, it was armed protesters in Maidan Square seizing government buildings and demanding a change of government and constitution. US and European leaders championed the "masked militants" and denounced the elected government for its crackdown, just as they now back the unelected government's use of force against rebels occupying police stations and town halls in cities such as Slavyansk and Donetsk.

"America is with you," Senator John McCain told demonstrators then, standing shoulder to shoulder with the leader of the far-right Svoboda party as the US ambassador haggled with the state department over who would make up the new Ukrainian government.

When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague brazenly misled parliament about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's most neuralgic and politically divided neighbour.

Putin bit back, taking a leaf out of the US street-protest playbook – even though, as in Kiev, the protests that spread from Crimea to eastern Ukraine evidently have mass support. But what had been a glorious cry for freedom in Kiev became infiltration and insatiable aggression in Sevastopol and Luhansk.

After Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to join Russia, the bulk of the western media abandoned any hint of even-handed coverage. So Putin is now routinely compared to Hitler, while the role of the fascistic right on the streets and in the new Ukrainian regime has been airbrushed out of most reporting as Putinist propaganda.

So you don't hear much about the Ukrainian government's veneration of wartime Nazi collaborators and pogromists, or the arson attacks on the homes and offices of elected communist leaders, or the integration of the extreme Right Sector into the national guard, while the anti-semitism and white supremacism of the government's ultra-nationalists is assiduously played down, and false identifications of Russian special forces are relayed as fact.

The reality is that, after two decades of eastward Nato expansion, this crisis was triggered by the west's attempt to pull Ukraine decisively into its orbit and defence structure, via an explicitly anti-Moscow EU association agreement. Its rejection led to the Maidan protests and the installation of an anti-Russian administration – rejected by half the country – that went on to sign the EU and International Monetary Fund agreements regardless.

No Russian government could have acquiesced in such a threat from territory that was at the heart of both Russia and the Soviet Union. Putin's absorption of Crimea and support for the rebellion in eastern Ukraine is clearly defensive, and the red line now drawn: the east of Ukraine, at least, is not going to be swallowed up by Nato or the EU.

But the dangers are also multiplying. Ukraine has shown itself to be barely a functioning state: the former government was unable to clear Maidan, and the western-backed regime is "helpless" against the protests in the Soviet-nostalgic industrial east. For all the talk about the paramilitary "green men" (who turn out to be overwhelmingly Ukrainian), the rebellion also has strong social and democratic demands: who would argue against a referendum on autonomy and elected governors?

Meanwhile, the US and its European allies impose sanctions and dictate terms to Russia and its proteges in Kiev, encouraging the military crackdown on protesters after visits from Joe Biden and the CIA director, John Brennan. But by what right is the US involved at all, incorporating under its strategic umbrella a state that has never been a member of Nato, and whose last elected government came to power on a platform of explicit neutrality? It has none, of course – which is why the Ukraine crisis is seen in such a different light across most of the world. There may be few global takers for Putin's oligarchic conservatism and nationalism, but Russia's counterweight to US imperial expansion is welcomed, from China to Brazil.

In fact, one outcome of the crisis is likely to be a closer alliance between China and Russia, as the US continues its anti-Chinese "pivot" to Asia. And despite growing violence, the cost in lives of Russia's arms-length involvement in Ukraine has so far been minimal compared with any significant western intervention you care to think of for decades.

The risk of civil war is nevertheless growing, and with it the chances of outside powers being drawn into the conflict. Barack Obama has already sent token forces to eastern Europe and is under pressure, both from Republicans and Nato hawks such as Poland, to send many more. Both US and British troops are due to take part in Nato military exercises in Ukraine this summer.

The US and EU have already overplayed their hand in Ukraine. Neither Russia nor the western powers may want to intervene directly, and the Ukrainian prime minister's conjuring up of a third world war presumably isn't authorised by his Washington sponsors. But a century after 1914, the risk of unintended consequences should be obvious enough – as the threat of a return of big-power conflict grows. Pressure for a negotiated end to the crisis is essential.



The article is factually wrong since it was Russia's attempt to force Ukraine into its trading area which brought the whole thing to a head. I don't mind people having different opinions but at least get the time line correct. If the people of Ukraine want to be part of Russia's trading area they would be. The other choice to be part of the EU is a valid and understandable one and is the Ukrainians business not Russia's. The fall of Ukraine's former president, who I repeat has gone on record saying he doesn't doesn't support Crimean annexation, was a Ukrainian matter. Crimea's place and constitutional settlement inside Ukraine is Crimea's and Ukraine's business. Russia's invasion of another sovereign state's territory despite treaty commitments by Russia to honour them is what has caused the start of this civil war. All the deaths now and in the future sit squarely at the feet of Putin. There is no wriggling off that truth.Claim it was the US or the EU what did it, all you like, it won't become fact.
 
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The reason why he comes out with these statements is to satisfy the Russian public's demand to appear tough. So I mean is that many Russians will regard him as soft if he doesn't make these statements.
As for the military, the fact is that despite the manpower Russian military has been neglected. You mention incredible amounts of money. But it's still only a fraction of what, for example, the US & China spend. The Ukraine military is also significantly strong enough to stand a very good fight even without NATO intervention (which would be unlikely). A full scale land war in the Ukraine would neither benefit countries and would almost certainly bankrupt Russia and definitely the Ukraine. A civil war is a different story from a full scale land war between 2 nations.

Finally, the West is not rotten and corrupt. The West is just stupid, hypocritical and shouldn't get involved in my opinion. Further, Westerners have nothing against Russians and certainly most Westerners don't mind Russia being great. In fact the West has great respect for Russia and regard Russia as great already!! That is the public opinion in countries like the UK and the Netherlands. I think the problem that the West have with Russia is than rather than using diplomatic and democratic means (most people realise that large area's of Eastern Ukraine should probably be Russian anyway) Russia seems to ignore international law and do want they want without being held responsible. So it's not the fact that parts of Ukraine probably should not fall under Ukaine atomony that's the problem with the West, it's more the way the Russians go about things that doesn't hold well with Western governments (which personally I think is hypocritical of the West anyway; re: Iraq...).

There are areas which have large Russian populations but only Crimea has a majority Russian population. It is far from clear whether people in the other regions would want to be part of Russia.
 
Maybe in a Disney movie. Look at the ex-Yugoslav republics, nearly two decades after the war and super close to Europe, go ask them if they have a 'better way of life' now. I am really struggling to take you seriously sometimes.

The key bit being the war.
 
Its quite clear why he is doing it. He wants to to claim Russia speaking areas in Ukraine as part of Russia.

I'm not entirely sure that this is a reason and not a repercussion, that's what I'm talking about.
 
Why would that mean a better way of life for the Ukrainians?

Closer integration with Europe would open up significant amount of foreign investment, which would result in more, and better jobs for Ukrainians. The country would certainly modernize at a much faster pace and become more attractive for outside businesses.
 
I wasn't serious about rotten and corrupt West, I'm just giving you the view of a majority population here (I'm Russian). We still have the soviet "all world is against us because we're right and they're frightened" mentality
@Rams
 
Good piece in "Der Spiegel"

Putin's Not Post-Communist, He's Post-Fascist

By Jan Fleischhauer

Some like to idealize Vladimir Putin as the ideological successor to the left-wing Soviet leaders, but that's sheer nonsense. His speeches offer clear evidence that his points of reference originate in fascism.

In order to understand Vladimir Putin, you have to listen to him. You have to read what he wants. More importantly, though, you have to see what it is that he is seeking to prevent. Often, a politician's fears and aversions can be more telling than his or her plans and promises.

So what is it that drives Putin? The central theme of all his speeches is the fear of encirclement -- the threat represented by powers that want to keep the Russian people down because they fear its inner strength. "They are constantly trying to sweep us into a corner because we have an independent position, because we maintain it and because we call things like they are and do not engage in hypocrisy," he said in a March 18 speech before the Duma. In a television interview in April, he said: "There are enough forces in the world that are afraid of our strength, 'our hugeness,' as one of our sovereigns said. So they seek to divide us into parts."

A Threat to the Russian Soul

There remains a tendency to view the Kremlin's foreign policy primarily from a geopolitical perspective -- namely that the country is seeking to recover some of the territory it lost when the Soviet Union dissolved. But when Putin speaks of the enemy of the Russian people, he is speaking about something deeper and more basic. The forces against which he has declared war are not only seeking to expand their influence further and further into the East -- they are also going after the Russian soul. That's what he means when he says that Russia must put up a fight against the West.

But what's at the heart of this soul? Putin has provided some insights here as well. "It seems to me that the Russian person or, on a broader scale, a person of the Russian world, primarily thinks about his or her highest moral designation, some highest moral truths," he said in the interview. In contrast to this is a West that is fixated on personal success and prosperity or, as Putin states, the "inner self." In the view of its president, the battle Russia is waging is ideological in nature. It is a fight against the superficiality of materialism, against the decline in values, against the feminization and effeminacy of society -- and against the dissolution of all traditional bonds that are part of that development. In short, against everything "un-Russian."

Even today, many are having trouble recognizing the true nature of a man who is currently in the process of turning the European peace order on its head. Perhaps we don't have the courage to make the right comparisons because they remind us of an era that we thought we had put behind us. Within Germany's Left Party and parts of the center-left Social Democrats, Putin is still viewed as a man molded in the tradition of the Soviet party leader, who stood for an idealized version of Socialism. The old knee-jerk sense of solidarity is still there. It is based on a misunderstanding, though, because Putin isn't post-communist. He's post-fascist.

A search for the right historical analogy should focus on the events of Rome in 1919 rather than Sarajevo in 1914. It won't take long for those who step inside the world of echo chambers and metaphors that color Putin's thinking to identify traits that were also present at the birth of fascism. There's Putin's cult of the body, the lofty rhetoric of self-assertion, the denigration of his opponents as degenerates, his contempt for democracy and Western parliamentarianism, his exaggerated nationalism.

Enemies of freedom on the far right in Europe sensed the changing political climate early on. They immediately understood that, in Putin, someone is speaking who shares their obsessions and aversions. Putin reciprocates by acknowledging these like-minded individuals. "As for the rethinking of values in European countries, yes, I agree that we are witnessing this process," he told his television interviewer last Thursday, pointing to Victor Orban's victory in Hungary and the success of Marine Le Pen in France. It was the only positive thing he had to say in the entirety of a four-hour interview.

An Historic Mission for the Russian People

When they were first introduced one year ago, people also failed to recognize the true meaning of Russia's new anti-gay laws. But today it is clear that it marked the emergence of the new Russia. What began with an anti-gay law is now continuing at another level: The logical progression of the belief that certain groups are inferior is the belief in the superiority of one's own people.

And when Putin evokes the myth of Moscow as a "Third Rome," it is clear he is assigning the Russian people with an historic mission. Responsibility is falling to Russia not only to stop Western decadence at its borders, but also to provide a last bastion for those who had already given up hope in this struggle. But he is also saying that Russia can never yield.

"Death is horrible, isn't it?" Putin asked viewers at the end of his television appearance. "But no, it appears it may be beautiful if it serves the people: Death for one's friends, one's people or for the homeland, to use the modern word." That's as fascist as it gets.
 
Closer integration with Europe would open up significant amount of foreign investment, which would result in more, and better jobs for Ukrainians. The country would certainly modernize at a much faster pace and become more attractive for outside businesses.

That's a nice magic formula you got there, European integration being the key to prosperity and general well being. You should sell it to Greece, Spain and Portugal.
 
Seeing that Ukrainian forces are now murdering innocent civilians, is NATO going to bomb Ukraine in order to prevent any further massacres?

Can you link stories of Ukrainian forces murdering innocent civilians? The people who died in the Odessa riot weren't killed by "Ukrainian forces." The militants around the east who got into firefights with them?
 
Reuters has just reported that a spokesman for Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, has said that Russia has lost control of pro-Russian rebels in the east and south of Ukraine.

So, they admit they had control of the pro-Russian rebels and instigated their presence. :lol:
 
Can you link stories of Ukrainian forces murdering innocent civilians? The people who died in the Odessa riot weren't killed by "Ukrainian forces." The militants around the east who got into firefights with them?

I was talking about Slavyansk and Krematorsk.
 
So, they admit they had control of the pro-Russian rebels and instigated their presence. :lol:

Same way the US has lost a bit of control over Kyev, seeing the latests inner-Ukrainian clashes between Pravi Sektor and the people who oppose them ;)
 
The key bit being the war.

Well, not really. As I said, it's been nearly two decades since the war. I'm talking about the consequences of corruption, mismanagement, privatisation, unsustainable administration apparatus, crippling regulations, etc. Being close to Europe means fck all if you cant sort out all of the above. Meaning there's no guarantee that Ukraine would transform itself into a modernised economy if only they were integrated into Europe.
 
That's a nice magic formula you got there, European integration being the key to prosperity and general well being. You should sell it to Greece, Spain and Portugal.

Imagine Greece, Spain, and Portugal as Russian client states and it becomes quite clear they are in better shape now than if they were burdened with cold war corruption and nationalistic bullying.
 
There are areas which have large Russian populations but only Crimea has a majority Russian population. It is far from clear whether people in the other regions would want to be part of Russia.

According to the survey from the Brookings Institute (posted earlier) it's clear they don't want to be part of Russia, any of the regions.
 
Imagine Greece, Spain, and Portugal as Russian client states and it becomes quite clear they are in better shape now than if they were burdened with cold war corruption and nationalistic bullying.

I don't know what Cold War corruption is but looking at the annual corruption perceptions index it is clear that it is affecting countries which had nothing to do with the Cold War whatsoever. It's simply the way things are. The corruption in Greece is a domestic, 'organic' corruption, and it could thrive because people could get away with it. Nationalistic bullying is beautifully represented with the rise of the Chrisi Avgi. You don't necessarily need to be a post-communist country in order to be ruined.
 
Verstörend ist die Sprache, die Behörden und Medien angesichts der Katastrophe wählen. Während in Odessa Menschen verbrannten, meldeten ukrainische Medien geradezu triumphierend, "Patrioten" hätten die "Separatisten zurückgeschlagen". Man sei dabei, sie erfolgreich "auszuräuchern".

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...er-in-odessa-nach-brandstiftung-a-967340.html

Ukrainian media reporting about the 'patriots' who are successfully 'smoking out' the separatist, as Kyev supporters were filmed throwing Molotovs into the building. There are videos of pro-Russian survivors, crawling out of the fire, who were beaten to death.

All Putin's fault, obviously.
 
Ukrainian media reporting about the 'patriots' who are successfully 'smoking out' the separatist, as Kyev supporters were filmed throwing Molotovs into the building. There are videos of pro-Russian survivors, crawling out of the fire, who were beaten to death.

All Putin's fault, obviously.

Reporters on the ground watched pro-Russians on the roof throwing bricks and rocks at the people outside who were attempting to throw ropes and ladders to people trying to escape the upper floor windows. It was also the pro-Russians who attacked the "unity" protest, like they did in Luhansk a few days ago. The first reported death in Odessa yesterday was if a pro-Ukrainian man who was shot in the head. Earlier it was reported that 20 of he dead were foreign, 15 Russians and 5 Transnistrians.
 
Ukrainian media reporting about the 'patriots' who are successfully 'smoking out' the separatist, as Kyev supporters were filmed throwing Molotovs into the building. There are videos of pro-Russian survivors, crawling out of the fire, who were beaten to death.

All Putin's fault, obviously.

Over 40 people burned alive in the building. Watch at your own risk.
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@antihenry Jesus christ man, would you mind making it clear those are up-close pictures of charred bodies in your 'spoiler'.

When I tried to quote your post the pictures just appeared, that's kinda a not great feature.
 
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Reporters on the ground watched pro-Russians on the roof throwing bricks and rocks at the people outside who were attempting to throw ropes and ladders to people trying to escape the upper floor windows. It was also the pro-Russians who attacked the "unity" protest, like they did in Luhansk a few days ago. The first reported death in Odessa yesterday was if a pro-Ukrainian man who was shot in the head. Earlier it was reported that 20 of he dead were foreign, 15 Russians and 5 Transnistrians.

I'm aware of those attacks also. I've said it a while ago, no one is claiming that Russians and pro-Russians are angels from heaven. However, blaming Putin for everything from a flat tyre to the outbreak of WW3 and painting this ridiculous 'good guys vs bad guys' caricature simply doesn't work. You seem to have all already forgoten about the ousting of Yanukovich, the Nuland incident, the snipers, everything. It's all centred around one easy target, the 'post-fascist' Putin. Whereas the truth behind this whole mess is so much more complex. We have had similar discussions over the last years about Milosevic, Ghadafi, Assad etc (yeah yeah I know, what a lovely bunch) and it always came down to the same oversimplified, binary, clichéd black and white crap. You know the feeling when you watch the news and you know you've heard it all before. Always the same rethoric, just rinse and repeat.
 
Reporters on the ground watched pro-Russians on the roof throwing bricks and rocks at the people outside who were attempting to throw ropes and ladders to people trying to escape the upper floor windows. It was also the pro-Russians who attacked the "unity" protest, like they did in Luhansk a few days ago. The first reported death in Odessa yesterday was if a pro-Ukrainian man who was shot in the head. Earlier it was reported that 20 of he dead were foreign, 15 Russians and 5 Transnistrians.

The report you're referring to turned out to be some twitter bullshit. There were about eight people identified hours after, all of them Ukrainian citizens, all local residents of Odessa. See, that's the problem with judging something while sitting on a sofa thousands of miles away. I read and watch all sources, Russian, Ukrainian and the major Western media outlets. Apart from that, I live in the south of Russia, not far from Ukrainian border and keep in contact with several Ukrainian guys who I work with and who's got friends and relatives there.

The pro-Ukrainian radicals had about three-to-one ratio against the opponents. It's irrelevant who started the confrontation, what's important is the terrible outcome. Unless you're trying to justify burning people alive.
 
Over 40 people burned alive in the building. Watch at your own risk

Saw it earlier on liveleak. Insane stuff. There was another video showing the masses shouting to those trapped in the building 'jump you bastards, jump you animals'. All this shit reminds me of how it all started in my country.
 
The report you're referring to turned out to be some twitter bullshit. There were about eight people identified hours after, all of them Ukrainian citizens, all local residents of Odessa. See, that's the problem with judging something while sitting in a sofa thousands of miles away. I read and watch all sources, Russian, Ukrainian and the major Western media outlets. Apart from that, I live in the south of Russia, not far from Ukrainian border and keep in contact with several Ukrainian guys who I work with and who's got friends and relatives there.

The pro-Ukrainian radicals had about three-to-one ratio against the opponents. It's irrelevant who started the confrontation, what's important is the terrible outcome. Unless you're trying to justify burning people alive.

I've read on Serbian news there were apparently some pro-Russian football fans jumping at a protest march and ripping down Ukrainian flags etc.

The bolded part it is.
 
Well, you do realize that there are two sides to every story? According to you and a few other US posters here everything that's wrong in Ukraine is Russia's fault. It's fine to criticize Russia and its president, but somehow the Western powers are never guilty of anything despite seemingly being in the middle of everything.

Russian actions weren't the reason US and EU got involved. They were always involved. US State Dept and CIA are running the show from Kiev now, it's an open secret. You don't think they just happened to settle in there by pure accident as a result of Maidan? They planned it, supported it and are currently ruling Ukraine through their puppets. It was never about Ukraine or Ukrainians. It's geopolitical power play by Washington and their EU lackeys to undermine Russia's influence in the region and it's been in the making for a very long time.

+ 1 great post mate.

EU and US get involved in everything and always claim is for 'the people', either ours or theres but it never is. We should stop getting involved IMO and stop rolling into other countries. As you say, always two sides but we get peppered by our media here so everyone laps it up. The media are in the main as shackled as we are, by those at the top!

Would love to be able to watch some Russian or Ukranian tv and papers to get a balance but don't know the language. The alternative media, less mainstream is harder to come by.