Colonialism in the subcontinent thread

:lol: So you think Churchill and the British administration were just there, twiddling their comically evil moustaches saying "Yes, it'll be hilarious to let millions die, bloody fantastic old chap, let's get a cup of tea and wait for all this to blow over". You're the laughably ignorant one, if we're throwing personal insults about.

Nehru et al not agree to the divisions of the partition...or are all the historical documents wrong? I suppose his agreement, and the agreement of other key figures in the partition was all due to evil Britishers manipulation.

Frankly, I find your use of words more indicative of your inability to believe that the British could possibly be responsible for something like the famine through anything more than just poor administration than of the actual likliness of it being the case.

Why is it so easy to believe that the Germans or the Russians or Japanese were capable of conducting atrocities on a mass scale on purpose (or at least not acting to prevent atrocities) but not Churchill and the British?
 
That's not really fair. Look at the size of "India". Why should there be unity there? Why not many, smaller nations much like Europe who are free to hate each other and fight amongst themselves? It is no fault of the people living on that continent that surrounding Empires looked to own that land. Over history there have been plenty of "nations" that inhabit what is now considered one country. Greece was made up of a fair few city states with little or no unity, they got dicked on a fair few times by expanding empires (and did their own fair share of fighting back, to be fair). The notion of a unified India is only so familiar because we decided there should be one. If it was three or four reasonably sized nations that would be no different. Blaming rulers of peoples on a continent for not being united just isn't a realistic blame to lay on someone. Why weren't all the British tribes united when the Romans turned up and took them over one by one because there was no unity? I mean, England's one country today, innit.

Well though I agree in parts with you, it is lot more complex than that. There were fights within families ruling a kingdom which took the 'outside help' to get rid of each other and playing in hands of invaders. As a Country as we see now, yes, back then it wasn't possible for everyone to be united but that said, any outside invader didn't directly target whole country, they went region by region, city by city, or empire by empire targeting those which were weakest and had infighting.
 
Tell that to the countries of Africa and the Middle East.
As I said, it was flawed. But likely better than the alternatives. Which sucked. If you're transitioning power, who do you give it to? It's a bloody tough question. The modern world is organized upon nation states, do you just give every ethnic or tribal group their own state and see how that goes? Do you let them fight it out and determine it for themselves? Or do you attempt to draw some boundaries and make it work-ish? It's easy to say how stupid everything was in hindsight but unfortunately the transition from empire-Parliamentary democracies had rarely been done before.
 
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Well I too am not expert on history but on the point of GDP etc, if I have to guess in that calculation they would have considered the wealth with Mughals etc residing in India as part of India's wealth when British came. I don't know. Fact is, from mughals to British, everyone took their share away from this country and I will blame Indian kings equally for it, again as said above, because of no unity. It has been age old problem for India and still persists.

Anyway, we are digressing a bit. My objection to that part of Reg's post was only on account of analogy depicting India as poor village girl which it was anything but and of course the awful comparison with rape.

btw, ya, the rot was probably set in already with Mughals etc shipping lots of wealth to their respective native regions.

Fair enough, cheers.

... I'm also quite struck by how everyone on the, for the sake of argument, "pro"-colonial side (and obviously I don't think anyone seriously believes that colonialism per se was somehow a good thing, just that it wasn't the unmitigated human atrocity it's made out to be) is either ethnic Chinese, or has a Chinese-inspired username! :lol: I wonder if there's something there.

Tell that to the countries of Africa and the Middle East.

Could you clarify on this? I think he makes a perfectly valid point. Setting up parliamentary government on the Westminster model, and to some extent handpicking their immediate successors, was generally one of the better things they did in, say, Malaya, or Burma, as compared to, say, French Algeria, no?
 
Frankly, I find your use of words more indicative of your inability to believe that the British could possibly be responsible for something like the famine through anything more than just poor administration than of the actual likliness of it being the case.

Why is it so easy to believe that the Germans or the Russians or Japanese were capable of conducting atrocities on a mass scale on purpose (or at least not acting to prevent atrocities) but not Churchill and the British?
Because it served absolutely no purpose for the British to create a famine and kill millions. There are no politically expedient reasons to do so. If there had been a political upside to creating this famine, I can imagine the British doing so, but there was not. Therefore I believe attributing it to poor planning, stupidity and the logistical challenges of WW2 is a lot more likely than the administrations - which were manned by both the British and Indians - conspiring to starve millions.
 
As I said, it was flawed. But likely better than the alternatives. Which sucked. If you're transitioning power, who do you give it to? It's a bloody tough question. The modern world is organized upon nation states, do you just give every ethnic or tribal group their own state and see how that goes? Or do you attempt to draw some boundaries and make it work-ish? It's easy to say how stupid everything was in hindsight but unfortunately the transition from empire-Parliamentary democracies had rarely been done before.

The modern world is also based on almost inexorable conflict in the Middle East and Africa. This has been one of the major problems with colonialism all along. There is nothing new about colonialism, the Europeans just took it to a mass scale and settled in far greater numbers than before.

Let's take.....Oh I don't know Nigeria for example. The British decided to lump together a great mass of land with no real historical basis, comprising of 250 different ethnic groups, each with their own different languages and customs.

Now, considering how Europe has been pretty much in perpetual war for centuries, imagine if say Vietnam had become an imperial power, colonised Western Europe and then decided to leave a land mass of Germany, Poland, France and Spain as one country. How would that have worked out? Considering the Europeans took centuries and war after war to decide on their borders, how do you think such a situation would have worked with just a few groups, let alone hundreds?
 
The modern world is also based on almost inexorable conflict in the Middle East and Africa. This has been one of the major problems with colonialism all along. There is nothing new about colonialism, the Europeans just took it to a mass scale and settled in far greater numbers than before.

Let's take.....Oh I don't know Nigeria for example. The British decided to lump together a great mass of land with no real historical basis, comprising of 250 different ethnic groups, each with their own different languages and customs.

Now, considering how Europe has been pretty much in perpetual war for centuries, imagine if say Vietnam had become an imperial power, colonised Western Europe and then decided to leave a land mass of Germany, Poland, France and Spain as one country. How would that have worked out? Considering the Europeans took centuries and war after war to decide on their borders, how do you think such a situation would have worked with just a few groups, let alone hundreds?
So what would you suggest? Having 250 mini-states? - thousands if this principle was extended throughout the empire. How would that have been any better?
 
Because it served absolutely no purpose for the British to create a famine and kill millions. There are no politically expedient reasons to do so. If there had been a political upside to creating this famine to kill millions, I can imagine the British doing so, but there was not. Therefore I believe attributing it to poor planning, stupidity and the logistical challenges of WW2 is a lot more likely than the administrations - which were manned by both the British and Indians - conspiring to starve millions.

What was Hitler's political purpose in killing millions in his camps? What was the Japanese political purpose for how they treated their PoWs or the way they savaged the Chinese?

I'm not sure I've seen anybody claim that the British decided to initiate the famine. Just once the famine was threatening to blow, the response was almost malicious.

Did you read the link posted earlier? I'd seen different sources used but it said fundamentally the same thing.

I don't find it at all difficult that a man who said what he did about Indians and other 'uncivilised tribes' would bother too much about the deaths of millions of them.
 
What was Hitler's political purpose in killing millions in his camps? What was the Japanese political purpose for how they treated their PoWs or the way they savaged the Chinese?

.

I should have said political or ideological reasons, sorry. The Nazis and Japanese had plenty of political and ideological reasons to do so. Hitler=demonized his enemies for years, lebensraum, purifying genetic stock, etc. The Japanese I'm not well qualified to talk about but I know there are significant historical grievances between Japan/China along with likely vast war propaganda.

Churchill might not have bothered much, but the government of India, again, manned by both Indian and British people, had curtailed a potential famine just two years prior to the Bengal famine, so I see no ideological reason for them to respond in an "almost malicious" manner. In any case, as I said before - I think the British are at fault for the famine, but I believe the reasons for the tragedy are wholly different to the reasons behind the Holocaust/Rape of Nanking/Whatever, and they shouldn't be compared.
 
So what would you suggest? Having 250 mini-states? - thousands if this principle was extended throughout the empire. How would that have been any better?

Asking the people on the ground what they wanted may have been a start? Perhaps providing suitable help after independence rather than focusing that help on propping up brutal dictators who stop commies/ allow the former colonial power access to natural resources may have been another?

Of course setting up colonial administration so that on leaving there are more than 1 or 2 drs/ lawyers/ governors etc in each country may have been helpful but obviously we're talking a dreamland here, I'm sure we're all in agreement that the administrations of the colonial powers were built to squeeze the maximum out of the local population with the minimal amount of input.

And why exactly is 250 mini states (and it wouldn't have been that anyway, 3 or 4 ethnic groups make up 70% of the people of Nigeria) so much more ridiculous than the absolute clusterfeck we currently have in Nigeria and Africa?
 
Well though I agree in parts with you, it is lot more complex than that. There were fights within families ruling a kingdom which took the 'outside help' to get rid of each other and playing in hands of invaders. As a Country as we see now, yes, back then it wasn't possible for everyone to be united but that said, any outside invader didn't directly target whole country, they went region by region, city by city, or empire by empire targeting those which were weakest and had infighting.


That's what everyone has always done though. Being targets for the bigger, more powerful nation or empire is not a fault of the target. Of course they took outside help, probably with offers and guarantees that once the subcontinent or part of it had been subjugated that particular ruler and his people would get a better deal. Probably the same deal we'd offered to every other leader, too.

It might be possible in hindsight to say they all should have united to fight off the invaders from half way across the world, or even from the middle-east but we know that never happens. Rulers and nations never see the big picture at the time because no one is ever aware that there is a big picture at the time. Laying blame at the feet of native Indian rulers for not joining up to push out invading empires is just a bit harsh in my view. Yes in hindsight, today, would know that to be the smart move, but it's just not a realistic criticism. It wasn't even "in fighting" so much as different Indian nations fighting other ones. You wouldn't call the Napoleonic wars "in fighting" if some huge foreign empire turned up and conquered all of western Europe, for example.
 
Asking the people on the ground what they wanted may have been a start? Perhaps providing suitable help after independence rather than focusing that help on propping up brutal dictators who stop commies/ allow the former colonial power access to natural resources may have been another?

Of course setting up colonial administration so that on leaving there are more than 1 or 2 drs/ lawyers/ governors etc in each country may have been helpful but obviously we're talking a dreamland here, I'm sure we're all in agreement that the administrations of the colonial powers were built to squeeze the maximum out of the local population with the minimal amount of input.

And why exactly is 250 mini states (and it wouldn't have been that anyway, 3 or 4 ethnic groups make up 70% of the people of Nigeria) so much more ridiculous than the absolute clusterfeck we currently have in Nigeria and Africa?
So you believe that dismantling a previously manageable territory into a split of 4/5 on ethnic lines - creating entirely new administrations, new governments - new governments for the British to support, apparently - would have worked out better? Well, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree, since I think having newly formed neighboring states divided on ethnic grounds - with either massive population displacement or massive overlap of populations - sounds like it has plenty potential for trouble.
 
So you believe that dismantling a previously manageable territory into a split of 4/5 on ethnic lines - creating entirely new administrations, new governments - new governments for the British to support, apparently - would have worked out better? Well, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree, since I think having neighboring states divided on ethnic grounds sounds like it has plenty potential for trouble.

A previously manageable territory? It was manageable for the British and their administrations. As we've seen, not particularly manageable for those that came after.

Sorry, isn't Europe effectively split on ethnic lines? Or language lines at least? How many French speakers are there in Germany? German speakers in Poland? How did that work out for Europe over centuries?

The Africans and those living in the Middle East were managing themselves fine before the Europeans came, in their own forms of government. They may have been worse, they may have been better. That doesn't change that suddenly they had those methods taken away from them as the Europeans rolled in and then equally as suddenly, found themselves in new blocks, with people they didn't necessarily associate with in any way, shape or form and told to govern.

And having states divided on ethnic grounds, often with minority groups that the Europeans had been using as ruling classes to forment division, has worked excellently for us?

Again, how do you think a Germany/ France/ Poland/ Spain state would have looked like and ended in the early 1900s?
 
I should have said political or ideological reasons, sorry. The Nazis and Japanese had plenty of political and ideological reasons to do so. Hitler=demonized his enemies for years, lebensraum, purifying genetic stock, etc. The Japanese I'm not well qualified to talk about but I know there are significant historical grievances between Japan/China along with likely vast war propaganda.

Churchill might not have bothered much, but the government of India, again, manned by both Indian and British people, had curtailed a potential famine just two years prior to the Bengal famine, so I see no ideological reason for them to respond in an "almost malicious" manner. In any case, as I said before - I think the British are at fault for the famine, but I believe the reasons for the tragedy are wholly different to the reasons behind the Holocaust/Rape of Nanking/Whatever, and they shouldn't be compared.

Again, I can only encourage you to read the article posted earlier again.
 
A previously manageable territory? It was manageable for the British and their administrations. As we've seen, not particularly manageable for those that came after.

Sorry, isn't Europe effectively split on ethnic lines? Or language lines at least? How many French speakers are there in Germany? German speakers in Poland? How did that work out for Europe over centuries?

The Africans and those living in the Middle East were managing themselves fine before the Europeans came, in their own forms of government. They may have been worse, they may have been better. That doesn't change that suddenly they had those methods taken away from them as the Europeans rolled in and then equally as suddenly, found themselves in new blocks, with people they didn't necessarily associate with in any way, shape or form and told to govern.

And having states divided on ethnic grounds, often with minority groups that the Europeans had been using as ruling classes to forment division, has worked excellently for us?

Again, how do you think a Germany/ France/ Poland/ Spain state would have looked like and ended in the early 1900s?

Essentially you've just argued that the Partition model is the best way to go about things. Well done. Dividing previously united native populations by ethnic/religious ground, with the consent of the local leaders. Not sure that was what you were going for. I'm sure the Partition of Nigeria would have gone down fantastically, especially if it had been divided into 4!
 
Essentially you've just argued that the Partition model is the best way to go about things. Well done. Dividing native populations by ethnic grounds with the massive displacement it entails in border regions, with the consent of the local leaders. Not sure that was what you were going for. I'm sure the Partition of Nigeria would have gone down fantastically, especially if it had been divided into 4!

What are you talking about? Of course there had to be partition, the British Empire was huge, you couldn't just have British West Africa as a country and French West Africa as a country.

You have to partition based on local history and local preferences though.

I'm not sure what you mean by the partition of Nigeria would have gone down fantastically? I haven't met a single Southern Nigerian who wants to be part of a Nigeria with the Northerners tbh. And part of the reason for all the tension between the North and the South (who historically were not joined, I'm not sure what you're not getting in this? It was the British that 'fused' Nigeria as one, you're partitioning a fake entity) was that the Northerners were given a disproportionate amount of power to get them on board, as they were very fearful of the Southerners changing their ways of life. Which unsurprisingly led to problem after problem. Which led to coup followed by counter coup followed by civil war.

Again, you haven't answered my question? Or the question of why division amongst mostly ethnic or religious lines ended up being the natural order in Europe after centuries of wars but shouldn't be the normal in Africa, where hundreds of different groups should instead be lumped together?

Or why the British know better about how areas of land and groups of people should be partitioned than the people living there themselves?
 
There are hundreds of ethnic divisions in Europe. Just look at the UK. A thousand years of war between the Scots, and the Welsh, and the Mercians, and the Celts, and a hundred other ethnic groups. But over time in a unified state those divisions melt away. I'm sure the English, Old Norse, Cornish, Cumbric, Welsh, and Latin speakers of Anglo-Saxon England felt little that Anglo-Saxon England was a "fake" entity at times, too. That process of unification was not "natural" either, it was horrible and bloody, with on-off wars for hundreds of years before they finally came to unify. Your entire premise that nations in Europe are ethnically homogenous is flawed. Look at Germany. Less than 200 years ago it was a mishmash of states, each with their own ethnic identities. Same with Italy.
 
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The Shadow of the Great Game

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The author, Narendra Singh Sarila, was the aide-de-camp to Earl Mountbatten of Burma, the last Viceroy of India, and had a ring-side view of the events just before and after Partition.

Sarila decided to write his book, “The Shadow of the Great Game – The Untold Story of India’s Partition” after he came across documents in the Oriental and Indian Collection of the British Library, London, in 1997 which revealed that “the Partition of India may not have been totally unconnected with the British concern that the Great Game between them and the USSR for acquiring influence in the area lying between Turkey and India was likely to recommence with even greater gusto after the Second World War and the start of the Cold War. And to find military bases and partners for the same.” Sarila also researched other historical British and the US State Department’s archives for his book. Incidentally, while many records have been unsealed, some important ones have not. Significantly, most of Mountbatten’s official correspondence during the period after Independence with London is still sealed, and unlikely to be made public anytime soon. This further fuels the controversy that the British Government has something to conceal regarding Partition and the question of Kashmir.

Sarila’s thesis rests on the fact that for nearly a hundred years prior to Partition, the British had engaged in what came to be known as the ‘Great Game’ with tsarist Russia over influence in Trans Oxania and Central Asia. The British believed that the safety of their Indian empire and access to the oil fields in the Middle East lay in keeping the Russians at a distance beyond the Oxus river on the northern fringes of Afghanistan. British strategic interests demanded that they have access to and partners in the northwest of India even after India’s independence. Indeed, the start of the Cold War even before India’s independence made this even more imperative, and the USSR’s invasion of Afghanistan nearly 30 years after independence confirmed British fears.

Sarila faults the Congress Party for not understanding the larger geo-political compulsions of Britain and for pursuing naïve policies that were in many cases counterproductive, but reinforced the feeling with both the Churchill and Attlee governments in Britain that Partition of India was necessary to protect British interests. Sarila does give credit, where it is due, to the Congress nationalists for mobilizing the masses in India that eventually made British rule in India untenable.

Some of the examples of Congress’ missteps in the late 1930s and the early ‘40s were: (i) resigning from the provincial ministries in 1939 on the entry of India into WWII, and leaving the field open to Jinnah to assume the reins of government even though the Congress was sympathetic to the Allied cause (ii) launching Quit India movement in the middle of WWII when there were millions of Allied troops in India – the movement was quickly quashed with no effect, (iii) not agreeing to joining the British Commonwealth until almost the 11th hour thereby raising British insecurity, and (iv) not giving any assurance to the British that they would cooperate on diplomatic and military matters after Independence.

These led the British to believe that their strategic interests could not be safeguarded in an India led by the Congress party. The British had other compulsions too: a prudent approach would require not putting ‘all eggs in one basket’. They also believed (incorrectly as it turned out later) that India would not survive as a single state given its heterogeneity, whereas Muslim-Pakistan stood a better chance of being a united, strategic partner. Lastly, by 1947, most British politicians and bureaucrats had come to loathe the Congress Party and had become distrustful of Hindu politicians.

A mistake that the Congress Party made was to accept the Muslim League as part of the Interim Government without extracting a concession that the League also join the Constituent Assembly and stop any future ‘Direct Actions’. This enabled the League to play an obstructionist role in the Interim Government without facing any consequences.

According to Sarila, “Protected by British power for so long and then focused on a non-violent struggle, the Indian leaders were ill prepared, as independence dawned, to confront the power play in our predatory world…They had failed to see through the real British motivation for their support to the Pakistan scheme and take remedial measures. Nor did they understand that, at the end of the Raj, America wanted a free and united India to emerge and to find ways to work this powerful lever”.

Jinnah, by contrast, had a better understanding of British motivations and the growing American influence on British policy, and used this to greater effect. He cooperated better with the Allied war effort, did not embarrass the British government, and was rewarded by a British policy that nudged events towards Partition. An example is cited of Nehru’s sister, Vijayalaxmi Pandit, leading the charge in 1946 at the UN to pass a resolution critical of apartheid (South Africa was a close British ally at the time) with the support of the developing countries. This was at a time when India’s own fate was to be decided. This ‘diplomatic success’ won India little laurels, except confirmed the fears in the minds of the British about what might come to pass under a Congress-led India. By contrast, when the Communist Chinese finally gained recognition in the UN in 1972, their diplomats were ordered by Peking to stay quiet for several years, and they made no moves at the UN. Even today, Beijing rarely sponsors or vetoes UN resolutions, preferring to reach consensus in back-door deals in advance. There are numerous other examples to cite of Nehru’s naïveté in dealing with foreign affairs (too many to summarize in this review).

Jinnah, it is revealed, also had secret correspondence with Churchill during the war and thereafter. The details of this correspondence are not known, except that Jinnah sought his help in reigning in the Viceroys in Delhi and promised support to Britain after independence to make the case for Pakistan. Jinnah’s cooperation with the British dovetailed with their efforts to carve out a friendly sphere of influence in the North West. It is also possible that he received advice to be intransigent during negotiations with the Congress, because the reward would be his Pakistan. This he proceeded to do with great flourish, with tacit British support behind the scenes.

Field Marshall Wavell, Viceroy of India, 1943-47, and predecessor of Mountbatten concluded that India had to be partitioned to preserve British interests, and even drew maps (eerily similar to the Sir Cyrill Radcliff division of India) as early as 1946 that showed the desired boundary demarcation. Sarila writes, “While in London, Wavell, on 31 August 1945, called on Churchill. According to Wavell's account: 'He warned me that the anchor [himself] was now gone and I was on a lee shore with rash pilots...His final remark, as I closed the door of the lift was: "keep a bit of India". Churchill, no longer Prime Minister, believed that the Attlee government, then in power, having decided to grant India independence, was not in favor of Partition and would sacrifice British interests in their haste to grant freedom to India. Attlee, who served as Churchill’s deputy in the War Cabinet and the Defence Committee during the Second World War, was fully alive to British interests.

Indeed, under Attlee, Britain's position at this stage (August, 1945) could be summarized as follows:

1. The British military was emphatic on the value of retaining its base for defensive and offensive action against the USSR

2. Wavell was quite clear that this objective could not be achieved through partition - keeping a bit of India-because the Congress Party after independence would not cooperate with Britain on military and strategic matters;

3. While Labour leaders did not agree with Wavell that all was lost with the Congress Party, Attlee was, nonetheless, ready to support the division of India as long as the responsibility could not be attributed to Britain

Britain, then proceeded to assiduously implement this policy, through both the Churchill and Attlee governments. Mountbatten inherited this policy that Wavell had helped formulate. This policy necessitated that the corridor running from Baluchistan, Sind (for the port of Karachi), NWFP, northern Kashmir to Sinkiang be placed under a friendly regime. At the same time, Britain did not want to place any more territory than minimally necessary to serve their strategic interests.

The British had a few hurdles to overcome:

1. Jinnah had to be installed as the ‘sole spokesman’ of India’s Muslims, even though the Muslim League could muster only two governments in the five provinces of India that the League demanded to be part of Pakistan in the 1946 elections (Bengal and Sind – the latter being possible only through a tie-breaker vote cast by the British governor of Sind). Significantly, Muslim League could not form governments in Punjab (Unionists), NWFP (Congress), and Assam (Congress).

2. Jinnah had to be made to accept a truncated Pakistan with partitioned Punjab and Bengal

3. NWFP, which had a Congress ministry in 1946 and a 95% Muslim population, had to be made part of Pakistan

4. Congress Party had to be persuaded to join the British Commonwealth

5. The Americans, who favored a united India, had to be persuaded that the Partition was the only inevitable outcome given ‘Hindu-Muslim’ question

6. The blame for Partition had to rest with Indians, not the British

On each of the above issues, the British succeeded brilliantly. They continuously raised the smokescreen of protection of Muslim rights and gave Jinnah an effective veto on all proposals not acceptable to the League. The Cabinet Mission Plan was used successfully to persuade Indians (and world opinion) that the Partition was the only reasonable outcome. These helped Jinnah position himself as the ‘sole spokesman’. Jinnah was persuaded to accept a truncated Pakistan by Mountbatten who basically told Jinnah that if didn’t accept Partition, there would be no Pakistan. The Cabinet Mission Plan, by providing an alternative to Partition, also persuaded Jinnah to accept a smaller Pakistan. Nehru/Patel were tempted to swallow the bitter pill of losing NWFP by being promised a quick transfer of power. The Congress stabbed the Khudai Khidmatgars and Dr. Khan Sahib, Chief Minister, NWFP by agreeing to a unique referendum that was not implemented in any other British province, even though Congress already had the peoples’ mandate in 1946. Congress then boycotted the referendum, and the fate of NWFP was decided by a narrow margin of 50.28% of the electorate. Thus, NWFP was handed to Pakistan without a contest by the thinnest of margins. Had the Congress and the Khudai Khidtmgars (they boycotted for fear of violence by the Muslim League) contested the elections, NWFP may well have voted for India and Pakistan would have been stillborn. Congress agreed to join the Commonwealth after Mountbatten promised all his help in integrating the princely states in India. The British, to their credit, even as they assisted in the birth of Pakistan, ensured that what remained of India was consolidated by the accession of the princely states to it.

Mountbatten did India a huge service by taking independence as an option off the table from the princely states. They had only two choices: accede to India or to Pakistan. The Americans, even though did not want to see India balkanized and favored the emergence of a united India, were made to believe that Partition was the only option by the British. Once the Indian politicians had accepted Partition, the American voice for Indian unity was muted, and the blame for it passed on to Indians.

On Kashmir, the record is also quite clear: once the Pakistani raiders entered Kashmir, Mountbatten goaded Nehru to take the matter to the UN, where the British succeeded in closing military options for India and legitimizing the locus standi of Pakistan. In the open forum of the UN, the British could no longer conceal their bias for Gilgit and Baltistan to be joined with Pakistan as part of an essential corridor to Central Asia.

Sarila writes that the British ‘Pakistan Strategy’ succeeded brilliantly. Pakistan joined the Baghdad Pact and later, CENTO to form the defensive barrier again Soviet intentions in the Middle East, and went on to provide bases to the US for U-2 overflights. Later Pakistan provided the US access to China to pressurize the Soviets and provided a base against the Soviets in the Afghan war.

Sarila asks, “would the 1962 Sino-India clash have occurred had India remained united? Would the Indian subcontinent have been nuclearized in the 20th century but for Partition? Would the communal virus have spread throughout Pakistan and India in recent years, but for Partition? The genie of Muslim terrorism centered around Pakistan has made British policies come full circle. Some of the roots for its emergence lay in Partition. Would undivided India have been able to absorb 500 millions Muslims today in its midst?

Sarila summarises, "Once the British realized that the Indian nationalists who would rule India after its independence would deny them military cooperation under a British Commonwealth defence umbrella, they settled for those willing to do so by using religion for the purpose. Their problem could be solved if Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the leader of the Muslim League Party, would succeed in his plan to detach the northwest of India abutting Iran, Afghanistan and Sinkiang and establish a separate state there - Pakistan. The proposition was a realizable one as a working relationship had been established between the British authorities in India and Jinnah during the Second World War and he was willing to cooperate with Britain on defence matters if Pakistan was created."

The British strategy worked brilliantly in protecting the now Anglo-American interests but there were substantial gruesome and tragic side effects — partition-related displacement, migration and massacre of millions of people, and three wars between South Asian neighbors. The author hints and perhaps contends that the growth of radical Islamic fundamentalists in the region and the destruction of the World Trade Center (9/11) had its roots in the partition. I could not put this eminently readable book down until I finished it. I recommend it to any student of South Asian and World History.

Sarila concludes by saying that, ‘the awareness that it was global politics, Britain’s insecurity and the errors of judgment of Indian leaders that resulted in Partition of India might help India and Pakistan in search for reconciliation.’
 
Actually you are proving my point completely. By 'natural', I do not mean created by nature, I mean eventually decided by those people as they killed each other over and over again until all the groups involved decided on the appropriate boundaries between them.

Nobody came in and decided to latch disparate groups together, they themselves settled on those boundaries and borders, finally after WW2 (in the former Yugoslavia much later than that) after literally hundreds of years of war and fighting. There wasn't an Asian or African power drawing straight lines between France and Germany or the UK and EIRE or Russia and Poland. Through war after war, those groups decided on their own national boundaries.

European states are not ethnically homogenous (though they're far more ethnically homogenous than many African states). My main point though, which you keep on skirting around, is there was self determination in much of the borders of Modern Europe, whether that was eventually through wars, democracy or mass ethnic cleansing (such as post WW2 for example). The same didn't happen in Africa and the ME and you're living in a dream world if you think that the country I made up earlier wouldn't have had all kinds of problems post independence, especially if the Vietnamese had been using the Spaniards to rule the majority French and Germans.
 
Tell that to the countries of Africa and the Middle East.

The French were gutless wicked bastards. They clung on to Algeria at the expense of millions of lives, and in most of their colonies that declared independence, they ripped up railways, gutted hospitals, schools and administrative depots of equipment and trained personnel.

The British exit strategy in Africa was more measured and fair, with minor hiccups in Kenya (Mau Mau rebellion) and Rhodesia, where a minority white enclave held on to power long after official British support was withdrawn.
 
Comparing the Bengal famine and the partition to the Holocaust. Just no. Hitler intentionally and directly killed millions, with vengeful purpose. That was not the case with the famine/partition. Those tragedies occured due to misinformation, poor administration, poor planning and tragic human error, not intentionally out of hatred.

I am sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about if you think it was just human error and nothing more

Rice continued to be exported to other countries and even other parts of India, and there was little to no aid sent to Bengal

There are articles of questionable bias on the very front page of a Google search that term the Bengal famine as a "man made holocaust" but I am not going to link to them

Read up wiki instead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
 
I'm not at all surprised by this kind of shit. Is there any possibility at all of discussing this without the need for personal insults? I appreciate it's an emotive topic for you, but as I've pointed out before, the colonial experience is not something you have a monopoly on.

And why exactly is it the most "important social science paper in the last two decades"? On what objective basis are you making that kind of statement? Because it agrees with you?

I'd say 6,000 plus citations is as objective as it gets. The link they find between extractive institutions established by colonialists and growth in colonies, both past and present, is almost unquestionable - hundreds of studies have built on this and reinforced their findings.
 
Finals just ended, been meaning to get back in this thread for a while.

I'm quite struck by the fact that many of the things brought up in criticism of colonialism - and they are extremely salient points, to be clear - tend to be from centuries ago (the Potato Famine being the best example, not raised in this thread I know but absolutely appalling nonetheless), or at the very least from the pre-WWII context (Amritsar, salt tax), back in the days when the Brits talked about King and Empire and actually meant it. In contrast, a lot of the examples being brought up by the other "side" - the economic success stories of Hong Kong, Japan, and the relatively benign treatment of the Philippines by the US, etc - are much more modern, 20th century examples. Colonialism in Singapore was a recent enough phenomenon, and I'm a young enough dude, that my dad spent the first 20 years of his life a subject of the Crown, for instance.

Could it be that what a lot of people decry about colonialism is simply premodern people doing premodern things to each other?
No, just no

The worst Bengal famine under British rule happened in 1943

Partition of Bengal happened in 1905, coincidentally just about when the Bengali renaissance was at it's peak, and when Bengal was starting to lead the call for independence

Most of the stuff that went wrong with British India was post 1857, and more specifically, post 1905

Jalianwala Bagh, Hindu Muslim riots, famines - most of them. It also so happened that India was demanding independence at the time

Coincidence?

Please understand that India is a unique case. India was and is rich in resources. Had a rich civilization, geographically strategic. The British empire leeched India. Absolutely the opposite to what they did with fishing villages like Singapore or HK where they had to build things from the ground up

India was systematically drained of her resources unlike some other colonies

Which is why you cannot compare the effects of British rule in the subcontinent to that in SE Asia, as an example
 
@Lu Tze do you know that the border plans for India/Pakistan were drawn up in more or less ONE MONTH?

Thousands of kms of borders were left undefined and/or vague - which led to, and still is the major reason for boundary problems that India faces

Villages in Punjab and Bengal literally had the border running through middle of houses

There was no consent/agreement taken from either the INC or the Muslim League when deciding the exact boundaries

Two districts in Bengal with muslim majority population even unfurled the Pakistan flag on 15th Aug only to later know they have been given to India

Please, please read up on the partition first

@naturalized India was not a shambles before the EIC invaded. Bengal was taken first, and she was one of the richest regions. The Mughal empire was ending, but in it's place the regional chieftains appointed by the Delhi Mughal seat were taking over. This is not new in India's history. India was a rich and successful regional power pre British annexation. In fact, most of SE Asia was colonized by India herself in the previous centures. This is not the case of a crumbling country being saved by an invading force. Far from it, in fact probably the opposite
 
Because it served absolutely no purpose for the British to create a famine and kill millions. There are no politically expedient reasons to do so. If there had been a political upside to creating this famine, I can imagine the British doing so, but there was not. Therefore I believe attributing it to poor planning, stupidity and the logistical challenges of WW2 is a lot more likely than the administrations - which were manned by both the British and Indians - conspiring to starve millions.

You have no information on 1943 Bengal do you? Bengal since 1890s had been undergoing a renaissance, which in early 1900s led to the first calls for Independence. Initially a cultural movement, it spiraled to violent non cooperation in the second decade of 1900s, especially after the first attempt at partition

Bengal was the hub of armed resistance and what we would today call terrorist activities. Read up on pre Independence revolutionaries and the most names are from Bengal, closely followed by Punjab. The capital was moved from Calcutta to Delhi - riots happened in Calcutta - Bengal's division happened - all this precisely for this one reason - because Bengal was becoming unmanageable

The British had a very valid reason to crush Bengal through any means necessary

Please, please read up. Else it just sounds ignorant
 
What should the British have done then, throughout the empire? Just upped and left without a moment's notice? How would that have gone? It was a no-win situation. I'm not even a fan of the empire, blimmin heck. I know it was a mostly negative. I was just arguing that the Partition and Bengal Famine are not at all comparable to the Holocaust.

Edit: And BTW Ryan's Beard. Among global empires - the Romans, Alexander, the Mongols - I'd suggest the British's exit strategy of the implementation of Parliamentary government and national boundaries, while flawed, was likely better than the other alternatives.

No it wasn't, not at all

The British exit strategy was to leave boundaries as vague, and in many cases as disputed as possible so that the newly created entities would constantly bicker over them

They essentially "upped and left without a moment's notice" when Britain became bankrupt after the war
 
Why did the government avert a famine in 1940-41 then, if they wanted to "crush Bengal through any means necessary"? The historical evidence shows that the British, through the implementation of the Indian Famine Codes - which became practically gospel in famine relief, by all accounts - repeatedly tried to avert famines in India, lest it hurt British economic interests.
 
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The French were gutless wicked bastards. They clung on to Algeria at the expense of millions of lives, and in most of their colonies that declared independence, they ripped up railways, gutted hospitals, schools and administrative depots of equipment and trained personnel.

The British exit strategy in Africa was more measured and fair, with minor hiccups in Kenya (Mau Mau rebellion) and Rhodesia, where a minority white enclave held on to power long after official British support was withdrawn.

I've already said that one of the main positives of the British was that they weren't the French or Belgians (from an African perspective anyway).

I was responding to the charge that the British exit strategy in terms of partition was better than the alternative. Fundamentally, the exit strategy of all the European empires was the same once they had agreed to leave (and again, the French were complete bastards). Draw completely arbitrary borders, creating volatile regions and interfering in internal affairs well after the final colonial officers are gone.
 
I've already said that one of the main positives of the British was that they weren't the French or Belgians (from an African perspective anyway).

I was responding to the charge that the British exit strategy in terms of partition was better than the alternative. Fundamentally, the exit strategy of all the European empires was the same once they had agreed to leave (and again, the French were complete bastards). Draw completely arbitrary borders, creating volatile regions and interfering in internal affairs well after the final colonial officers are gone.
The British by and large spent years cultivating Parliamentary democracy and self-governance prior to their departure. That is absolutely not the route most empires went down. It's just not. It's a lie to suggest otherwise. Belgians. Nope. French. Nope. Germany. Nope. Spain. Nope. Italy. Nope. Even the USA. Nope.
 
Why did the government avert a famine in 1940-41 then, if they wanted to "crush Bengal through any means necessary"? The historical evidence shows that the British, through the implementation of the Indian Famine Codes - which have become practically gospel in famine relief, by all accounts - repeatedly tried to avert famines in India, lest it hurt British economic interests.

The famine codes were NOT followed during the 1943 famine. I am not going to bore you with walls of text from sources you can find on the first page of Google

Do you know about Cripps' Mission and the Quit India movement that started in 1942? If yes, it should be self explanatory why post 1942 British India was a lost cause to the Crown

It was not so in 1940
 
The famine codes were NOT followed during the 1943 famine. I am not going to bore you with walls of text from sources you can find on the first page of Google

Do you know about Cripps' Mission and the Quit India movement that started in 1942? If yes, it should be self explanatory why post 1942 British India was a lost cause to the Crown

It was not so in 1940
Why kill a portion of the population through a ridiculously imprecise and indirect method, which would only stir up massive resentment and hatred? It makes no sense. It is not politically expedient. It was not done intentionally. You think the British intended that there would be a cyclone, three tidal waves and a devastating fungus? It's just crazy. Human error and administrative stupidity led to the famine, it was obviously not planned or intended.
 
If so, why kill a portion of the population through a ridiculously imprecise and indirect method, which would only stir up massive resentment and hatred? It makes no sense. It is not politically expedient. It was not done intentionally. You think the British intended that there would be a cyclone, three tidal waves and a devastating fungus? It's just laughable.

You are not answering logically and are repeatedly ignoring facts presented to you - facts which are accepted widely. The last two sentences are especially ridiculous. As they say in these parts, you have gone into a meltdown. I am done with you
 
You are not answering logically and are repeatedly ignoring facts presented to you - facts which are accepted widely. The last two sentences are especially ridiculous. As they say in these parts, you have gone into a meltdown. I am done with you
Did the British plan on a cyclone, multiple tidal waves and a devastating fungus? Y/N?
 
@berbatrick pmed an article to me - I am yet to read the source article based on which this was written, but it is interesting that someone has tried to quantify and compare the performances of princely vs crown ruled states pre and post independence
 
Did the British plan on a cyclone, tidal waves and a devastating fungus? Y/N?

Did the British divert rice from famine hit Bengal to other parts of India? Did the British divert rice from famine hit Bengal to Europe and other parts of the commonwealth? Did the British arrange for aid to famine hit Bengal from other parts of India and/or the commonwealth?

Y/N?

Are you deliberately winding me up? It is clear that the British did not cause a tidal wave or a poor crop yield. But it is abundantly clear that the administration did not react to the famine and did not take steps to prevent deaths due to starvation
 
Did the British divert rice from famine hit Bengal to other parts of India? Did the British divert rice from famine hit Bengal to Europe and other parts of the commonwealth? Did the British arrange for aid to famine hit Bengal from other parts of India and/or the commonwealth?

Y/N?

Are you deliberately winding me up? It is clear that the British did not cause a tidal wave or a poor crop yield. But it is abundantly clear that the administration did not react to the famine and did not take steps to prevent deaths due to starvation

There was a lot of misinformation, human error and you know, WW2 going on at the time. Whatever. if you want to believe that comically evil British(and Indian!) members of the government and civil service conspired to kill people - despite hundreds of years of trying to avert famines - then so be it. As Hanlon's razor states, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".
 
The British by and large spent years cultivating Parliamentary democracy and self-governance prior to their departure. That is absolutely not the route most empires went down. It's just not. It's a lie to suggest otherwise. Belgians. Nope. French. Nope. Germany. Nope. Spain. Nope. Italy. Nope. Even the USA. Nope.

Again, what are you talking about? I'm talking about borders and how they were drawn up. Borders. I didn't mention parliamentary democracy once.

And yes, the British spent time cultivating parliaments in their colonies (though it is a stretch to refer to them as parliamentary democracy, the number of local deputies were almost inevitably dwarfed by deputies sent by the British, meaning that there was no real self-determination, it was a way to provide the illusion of self-determination and the British were usually involved in ensuring that even local deputies either had no power or were in thrall to their colonial overlords.

Might be worth having a quick look at a map of political systems in Africa and the Middle East by the way, just to see how enduring the parliamentary republics have been in former British colonies.
 
There was a lot of misinformation, human error and you know, WW2 going on at the time. Whatever. if you want to believe that comically evil British(and Indian!) members of the government and civil service conspired to kill people - despite hundreds of years of trying to avert famines - then so be it. As Hanlon's razor states, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

You have continuously refused to address historical evidence put forward to you by DN, seemingly on the basis that the British are actually (to turn around something you keep on doing) comically benign when compared to all other Empires, when most evidence would suggest otherwise.
 
Again, what are you talking about? I'm talking about borders and how they were drawn up. Borders. I didn't mention parliamentary democracy once.

And yes, the British spent time cultivating parliaments in their colonies (though it is a stretch to refer to them as parliamentary democracy, the number of local deputies were almost inevitably dwarfed by deputies sent by the British, meaning that there was no real self-determination, it was a way to provide the illusion of self-determination and the British were usually involved in ensuring that even local deputies either had no power or were in thrall to their colonial overlords.

Might be worth having a quick look at a map of political systems in Africa and the Middle East by the way, just to see how enduring the parliamentary republics have been in former British colonies.
"Fundamentally, the exit strategy of all the European empires was the same once they had agreed to leave"

That's a pretty big claim. And one which the system of governance left in place post-Imperial rule would fall under. The British's implementation of Parliamentary democracy was a better way to go about it than leaving a power vacuum - which was the usual move.