Shinji Kagawa

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Adebesi said:
So maybe Kagawa can be a catalyst for us when the team is set up in a way that gets the best out of him..
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No, he's a catralyst when the team plays well. Period.

People just assume that he doesn't fit different styles because he's struggled in United, but if you look closely, you'll see that he shines whenever he's in the team and the team plays well. It doesn't matter if we rely on width or not. As long as well play good football, Kagawa shines.

That's why we can use him on the wing. That's why he's suited for the PL. That's why he's our man.
 
Adebesi said:
So you see a catalyst as a type of player, rather than a player in a specific situation?

Keane is a catalyst, but at Barca on the wing he would be rubbish, therefore catalysts dont always make a difference?

I would say, Keane is a catalyst if you play him in the right role, if you put him on the wing at Barca he is no longer a catalyst.

Likewise Silva. He might be a catalyst at City and wherever else, I would argue in a team where he was failing to make an impact he is not a catalyst.

A player is not born a catalyst, a player is a catalyst when he is in the right place at the right time. Or that is my understanding of it anyway.

So maybe Kagawa can be a catalyst for us when the team is set up in a way that gets the best out of him. I have no doubt he could be a catalyst, or that he was at Dortmund. From what I hear, he was. I just dont think he is a catalyst for us because he doesnt lift the rest of the team, not in our current state anyway. Maybe you are right, maybe he does a fraction but its at such a low level we dont notice it.

Anyway, these kinds of debates are boring, we have different understandings of what a catalyst is in this context. You dont need to try and convince me of his potential, I completely believe in it. I just agree with ACNumber, a catalyst for me is the kind of player who when he is in the team it plays noticeably better, the kind of player where if you are missing him for a big game you think oh no, how are we going to cope without him. That for me is not even remotely Kagawa in our current circumstances.
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We don't really have too different definitions of it. I think we agree on most points, I don't think Keane, Iniesta, Kagawa, Xavi or anybody could be a catalyst for us under Moyes as the left midfielder defending right in front of the full-back.

Every type of player, including catalysts, needs a team working in a system they can do their role in - and of course to get to play a role and position they can provide their services from.
 
Mad Winger said:
No, he's a catralyst when the team plays well. Period.

People just assume that he doesn't fit different styles because he's struggled in United, but if you look closely, you'll see that he shines whenever he's in the team and the team plays well. It doesn't matter if we rely on width or not. As long as well play good football, Kagawa shines.

That's why we can use him on the wing. That's why he's suited for the PL. That's why he's our man.
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I would say he is a catalyst if he can not just accelerate our existing good performance levels but also raise the performances of a poor team.

In his prime, Gerrard was possibly a catalyst because not just was he able to help a good performing side excel but also when the team were poor, he was out there, still fighting, getting the players around him them to raise their game.

Kagawa is more of a multiplier. If the team is good, he does seem to bring it together allowing them to connect even better and so perform better, he can multiply the effect of a good team but if the team is poor, then he is basically multiplying zero.

I want to keep him even if he is second choice, that said, I wouldn't be surprised if LvG found a way to accommodate him along with Rooney, RVP and Mata.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Scholes was a catalyst in his later days. Keane in particular was a leader, he'd inspire the entire team to work harder not because he made everything tick - in fact that wasn't a strength of his at all - but because of his leadership.
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Making things tick was a pretty major strength of Keane's. Every move started with him.
 
Empire said:
Kagawa is more of a multiplier. If the team is good, he does seem to bring it together allowing them to connect even better and so perform better, he can multiply the effect of a good team but if the team is poor, then he is basically multiplying zero.

I want to keep him even if he is second choice, that said, I wouldn't be surprised if LvG found a way to accommodate him along with Rooney, RVP and Mata.
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I think that's what Mad Winger was alluding to with his points as well as Annah and I. If the team is playing a quick, dynamic, attacking game, Kagawa can make the team perform even better. If the team's playing sluggish, static, passive football with the creators off form, Kagawa can't do much himself.
 
Empire said:
I would say he is a catalyst if he can not just accelerate our existing good performance levels but also raise the performances of a poor team.
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Catalyst... Multiplier.. Whatever.

He's a player that boosts the team performances signifcantly when we play good football. Personally, I think players like that are awesome. Not only because it's a useful weapon to have, but also because it's a nice indicator of how the team is playing.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Keane in particular was a leader, he'd inspire the entire team to work harder not because he made everything tick - in fact that wasn't a strength of his at all - but because of his leadership.
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Making things tick absolutely was a strength of Keane. Seems like you really underestimate his passing, he was excellent over the short-medium range.
 
ThanksBoss26 said:
Dropped by Japan tonight.
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Madwinger always uses his performances for Japan as a reference point. That was his wild card that he often uses to prove that Kagawa is a great player in the right system everytime he fails to perform for Utd but it looks like he will have nothing to fall back on anymore. Even Japan have lost trust in him and that is a huge statement considering Kagawa's status as Japanese poster boy. Its equivalent of England dropping Rooney after his game against Italy.
 
Bah, we could all look at this as point scoring against the Kagawa fan club

But I'd far prefer to see him play and perform well
 
Mad Winger must be feeling sad right about now. His sadness is probably like that of a father finding out his son has been benched.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Bah, we could all look at this as point scoring against the Kagawa fan club

But I'd far prefer to see him play and perform well
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Yeah, I probably get irritated by mentalwinger more than most but Kagawa getting dropped is a real disappointment. Nothing else.
 
I only bothered tuning into the fecking game to see him play, and in typical Shinji fashion, he gets himself dropped
 
Juan't Mata said:
Nah opinion is massively divided on Nani, whereas most people seem to think Kagawa is a top player.
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Opinion is massively divided on Kagawa too...you only need to look at the constant arguments in this thread to see that
 
Juan't Mata said:
Nah opinion is massively divided on Nani, whereas most people seem to think Kagawa is a top player.
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Problem with Kagawa is, that people did not just see him as a player who reached a high level at his previous club, but also that they connected him with a certain shift in play style they hoped to see in United. Otherwise his transfer made little to no sense. This shift never came and I don´t see it coming with Van Gaal either. With more and more time passing by his performances at Dortmund become less and less significant aswell.

He may very well turn out to be a player, who only excells in one role and in a system build towards his strengths.
 
Steven Seagull said:
Waiting for mad winger essay.
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He said he must be injured so if we can get confirmation on whether he was injured or not then let's see what Mad Winger's response is.

We can't rule out the very real possibility Anderson invited him for lunch at his house. If so, one must question his decision making.
 
Rezyuz said:
Bad? He wasn't at all.
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He was completely ineffective, didn't even help keep possession like he at least does with us most of the time. That said he was probably at a similar level to the rest of the team, they were just bad.
 
Empire said:
He said he must be injured so if we can get confirmation on whether he was injured or not then let's see what Mad Winger's response is.

We can't rule out the very real possibility Anderson invited him for lunch at his house. If so, one must question his decision making.
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Maybe he ate too much.
 
Theon said:
Making things tick absolutely was a strength of Keane. Seems like you really underestimate his passing, he was excellent over the short-medium range.
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I don't disagree with his passing I think he was much more than a catalyst. For me there is a level above catalysts which suits Keane much more than being compared to the likes who engage in short-pass>move>short-pass>move sequences to increase the pace of the team.

Keane was much more a leader who inspired his team mates by leading them on, psychologically being a catalyst but the impact of such a player is much greater I'd say than a regular catalyst. That is why the type is so dearly missed as they have gone extinct.

Scholes was the finer passer of the two and notorious for his ability to control the tempo, I don't think Keane ever reached anything near Scholes passing. Scholes of course never got close to being the leader that Keane was, which made them an even better fit as the team performed above their level in both fluidity/cohesiveness and combative abilities thanks to having them both.
 
He's been crap all year, 3 assists and no goals is poor for someone who's supposed to be a top player.
 
Unless Shinji wins this game for Japan I'll have to believe he's not been played in his best role. Not his fault.
 
I like Kagawa a lot but after two underwhelming years I won't be terribly disappointed if he leaves. Would much rather see the likes of Young, Valencia and Nani shipped off first though. They've been shite playing in their best positions for a long time now, whereas with Kagawa you get the feeling that with the right coach/system, he could be excellent for us.
 
simonhch said:
I like Kagawa a lot but after two underwhelming years I won't be terribly disappointed if he leaves. Would much rather see the likes of Young, Valencia and Nani shipped off first though. They've been shite playing in their best positions for a long time now, whereas with Kagawa you get the feeling that with the right coach/system, he could be excellent for us.
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I am really doubting even with the right coach system he would play well for us. I don't think he has the mentality, he really should be doing better. He plays no better or worse in the centre than he does on the wing for us. We should have Mata, Rooney and Januzaj for the number ten. When an 18 year old who made his debut game and season is playing better than you, I would imagine that is a cause for concern. To me, he is perfectly happy to be float in the game doing nothing most of the time.

rocks13 said:
Unless Shinji wins this game for Japan I'll have to believe he's not been played in his best role. Not his fault.
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He was dropped for a reason, he was crap, and he usually plays much better on the left for Japan than he does for United. It is partly his fault, but that seems to be the story, it is never his fault.
 
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