Neymar

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DJ Jeff said:
But they wouldn't. People always trot that out but it's never the case. Ronaldo and Rooney have had plenty of games, even seasons, where they've impressed statistically and still come in for some criticism (see Ronaldo in 08/09 or Rooney 11/12).


Of course not. The kid is anaemic, he's shrugged off constantly whenever I watch him for Barca, and he often looked actually scared playing for them as the season wore on. First season and all. I don't think he has it in the way some seem to think he has.
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We are talking about crucial WC goals though, which come every four years, not just some league or CL games.
 
He didn't have a below average campaign at barca. He had a below average 2nd half of the season which is true for pretty much every barca player apart from Iniesta who's season was the other way around. Plus he had injury problems throughout the 2nd half of the campaign.

In the first half of the season he was pretty much in barca's top two performers despite being new to the team and the league. When he played centrally when messi wasn't around you could see what's really to come from this lad. What player with a below average season gets a goal contribution every 91 mins and 85 mins in la liga and the champions league respectively?
 
RooneyLegend said:
He didn't have a below average campaign at barca. He had a below average 2nd half of the season which is true for pretty much every barca player apart from Iniesta who's season was the other way around. Plus he had injury problems throughout the 2nd half of the campaign.

In the first half of the season he was pretty much in barca's top two performers despite being new to the team and the league. When he played centrally when messi wasn't around you could see what's really to come from this lad. What player with a below average season gets a goal contribution every 91 mins and 85 mins in la liga and the champions league respectively?
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Whaat? Where did you read that?
 
This guy is class..

When Messi moves past his peak and the team is built around him, it's going to be another few years of Barca dominance.
 
What a talent, pure skill. Seems a completely different player playing for Brazil though. When he plays for Brazil he looks like he could be the Messi of his generation imo.
 
Womp said:
What a talent, pure skill. Seems a completely different player playing for Brazil though. When he plays for Brazil he looks like he could be the Messi of his generation imo.
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I've been saying this all season and all I've received has been "Nah he's shit look at him for Barcelona". In Barcelona they are requesting him to stay wide, to not interfere with Messi and his status which is why he is so inefficient there. Wait wide until he gets the ball, and when he does get it he can cut inside.

Him at his best is when he is a free roaming forward as his best abilities are centrally and his goalscoring, the only reason to play him out wide is because like David Silva you can do that as their dribbling is hard to replace out wide and they can still be as effective if they are free to roam as they wish.

Imagine David Silva being told he has to stay out wide all game, he'd go from a hero to a zero in one decision.
 
He is now our sixth highest goalscorer, having overtaken Rivaldo, Jairzinho, and Ronaldinho yesterday. 35 goals in 52 matches- insane.
 
Really impressed by his performances so far. He really has taken that step up, in the biggest stage in the footballing world. He doesn't seem phased at all by the immense amount of pressure being put on his shoulders. He is in no doubt, whatsoever, of his ability. A joy to watch.
 
Annahnomoss said:
I've been saying this all season and all I've received has been "Nah he's shit look at him for Barcelona". In Barcelona they are requesting him to stay wide, to not interfere with Messi and his status which is why he is so inefficient there. Wait wide until he gets the ball, and when he does get it he can cut inside.

Him at his best is when he is a free roaming forward as his best abilities are centrally and his goalscoring, the only reason to play him out wide is because like David Silva you can do that as their dribbling is hard to replace out wide and they can still be as effective if they are free to roam as they wish.

Imagine David Silva being told he has to stay out wide all game, he'd go from a hero to a zero in one decision.
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It has nothing to do with status. It's just that he's far inferior.
 
Yep, he's shown a bit of substance and character that I didn't know he had. Under more pressure than any other player at the WC and he's handling it with zero fuss.

Unfortunately he's been set an impossible task as this is a poor Brazil team, it'd be a miracle if he managed to lead them to victory. Still, he's definitely gone up in my estimation.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
It has nothing to do with status. It's just that he's far inferior.
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It wouldn't hurt Barcelona's game to let Neymar move more freely across the pitch and acting like he does for Brazil. He'd end up scoring a lot more goals and he'd be much more involved in the games. Barcelona as a team would benefit a lot from having Neymar in his Brazil form and they wouldn't be as predictable as they were this season.
 
Hasn't particularly impressed me in this WC, if I'm honest. He's racked up more goals than his overall contriution would merit. Which happens. Nowhere near as consistently influential as someone like Robben or Sanchez has been.

Brazil's group is fecking pants too. Cameroon are so bad it's untrue. Not only the worst team in this tournament, arguably the worst of the previous 2 or 3 as well. Croatia are a bit meh, too. Only faced one defensively resolute and organised team and was fairly anonymous throughout. The real tests are still to come.
 
Annahnomoss said:
It wouldn't hurt Barcelona's game to let Neymar move more freely across the pitch and acting like he does for Brazil. He'd end up scoring a lot more goals and he'd be much more involved in the games. Barcelona as a team would benefit a lot from having Neymar in his Brazil form and they wouldn't be as predictable as they were this season.
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It can't compromise messi's effectiveness, and you can't have two players given that freedom.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
It can't compromise messi's effectiveness, and you can't have two players given that freedom.
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Of course you can, they have had it in the past with Villa who was a left forward rather than a strict wide left winger. It didn't compromise Messi one bit, instead they were better with Villa there than they currently are with Neymar pushed out wide.

Henry also played the wide left forward role rather than a left winger role.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Hasn't particularly impressed me in this WC, if I'm honest. He's racked up more goals than his overall contriution would merit. Which happens. Nowhere near as consistently influential as someone like Robben or Sanchez has been.

Brazil's group is fecking pants too. Cameroon are so bad it's untrue. Not only the worst team in this tournament, arguably the worst of the previous 2 or 3 as well.
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Totally agree. The performance against Croatia was basically two goals, a couple of fouls drawn, and little else. He just comes across as a final third impact player right now, even at his best.

But where it's different for me, is that I've actually been impressed because he's done better than I expected.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Of course you can, they have had it in the past with Villa who was a left forward rather than a strict wide left winger. It didn't compromise Messi one bit, instead they were better with Villa there than they currently are with Neymar pushed out wide.

Henry also played the wide left forward role rather than a left winger role.
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Are you saying that barca play with two wingers these days? I'm pretty sure one if not both of the two wide players drifted in as wide forwards even this past season.
 
Annahnomoss said:
It wouldn't hurt Barcelona's game to let Neymar move more freely across the pitch and acting like he does for Brazil. He'd end up scoring a lot more goals and he'd be much more involved in the games. Barcelona as a team would benefit a lot from having Neymar in his Brazil form and they wouldn't be as predictable as they were this season.
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He can't do this and still play like pedro or villa do for barca. They're completely different roles.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Totally agree. The performance against Croatia was basically two goals, a couple of fouls drawn, and little else. He just comes across as a final third impact player right now, even at his best.

But where it's different for me, is that I've actually been impressed because he's done better than I expected.
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Yeah, credit where it's due for making an impact at the tournament with so much pressure on him. I just think he's been very lucky with the way things have worked out. Poor opposition, woeful defending and an early goal to settle his nerves. For someone who's supposed to be one of the best players in the world I'd expect a lot more. I haven't seen him be a dominant figure in any game he's played, even when he's scoring two goals. For example, I thought Oscar caused Croatia more problems in their opener and Fernandinho turned the game against Cameroon. Goals aside, Neymar's been fairly peripheral.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
He can't do this and still play like pedro or villa do for barca. They're completely different roles.
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His role for Brazil is similar to how Villa(and Henry) played for Barcelona. A goal-scorer starting from the left but being free to cut inside rather freely. Also Pedro and Sanchez already plays this role, the only player who gets on the pitch and suddenly camps out wide left is Neymar.

I don't believe it is his style at all, in Brazil he drifts inside or tries to get involved with the play all the time - there is no way he is told to drift around the left/central area of the pitch but instead camps out wide. Every performance for Brazil he shows that he is absolutely brilliant at handling the left-central role he has there, so he would do it for Barcelona if he was allowed.

It seems quite clear that he is told to camp wide left, as he really camps there until he receives a ball and then he starts trying to move centrally. Similar to how LVG wants his wingers to act.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, credit where it's due for making an impact at the tournament with so much pressure on him. I just think he's been very lucky with the way things have worked out. Poor opposition, woeful defending and an early goal to settle his nerves. For someone who's supposed to be one of the best players in the world I'd expect a lot more. I haven't seen him be a dominant figure in any game he's played, even when he's scoring two goals. For example, I thought Oscar caused Croatia more problems in their opener and Fernandinho turned the game against Cameroon. Goals aside, Neymar's been fairly peripheral.
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Absolutely. That's where my issue is regarding neymar. It's not that he isn't a good player for his age. He's obviously a very good 22 year old. However, the hype he gets is pretty nuts and completely disproportionate.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, credit where it's due for making an impact at the tournament with so much pressure on him. I just think he's been very lucky with the way things have worked out. Poor opposition, woeful defending and an early goal to settle his nerves. For someone who's supposed to be one of the best players in the world I'd expect a lot more. I haven't seen him be a dominant figure in any game he's played, even when he's scoring two goals. For example, I thought Oscar caused Croatia more problems in their opener and Fernandinho turned the game against Cameroon. Goals aside, Neymar's been fairly peripheral.
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Ronaldo is the best player in the world and he never dominates games either unless his team provides him with the passes/crosses which are necessary for Ronaldo to do his job. Neymar is of a similar style, he is more like a forward who needs passes and balls to be at his best - even if his dribbling is also great it is best seen when he gets to attack with pace.

You don't have to dominate game to be the best in the World.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Ronaldo is the best player in the world and he never dominates games either unless his team provides him with the passes/crosses which are necessary for Ronaldo to do his job. Neymar is of a similar style, he is more like a forward who needs passes and balls to be at his best - even if his dribbling is also great it is best seen when he gets to attack with pace.

You don't have to dominate game to be the best in the World.
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You do actually.

Ronaldo's been shite an' all but you're underestimating his influence in games where he's at his best. When he's on song for Madrid he absolutely does dominate games. Puts the fear of God in defenders every time he gets on the ball and all their best football goes through him. Seen nothing like this from Neymar in this tournament (or in a Barca shirt, come to think of it).
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Just to expand on my response here. The second half cameo from Rodriguez tonight was exactly what I mean by a creative, wide player dominating a game. A threat every time he got on the ball. Two great assists and a world class goal. For me, he's been far more impressive than Neymar in this tournament.
 
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Annahnomoss said:
His role for Brazil is similar to how Villa(and Henry) played for Barcelona. A goal-scorer starting from the left but being free to cut inside rather freely. Also Pedro and Sanchez already plays this role, the only player who gets on the pitch and suddenly camps out wide left is Neymar.

I don't believe it is his style at all, in Brazil he drifts inside or tries to get involved with the play all the time - there is no way he is told to drift around the left/central area of the pitch but instead camps out wide. Every performance for Brazil he shows that he is absolutely brilliant at handling the left-central role he has there, so he would do it for Barcelona if he was allowed.

It seems quite clear that he is told to camp wide left, as he really camps there until he receives a ball and then he starts trying to move centrally. Similar to how LVG wants his wingers to act.
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I think you're overrating the rigidity of his role at barca. It doesn't seem very different to the usual wide player barca who starts wide but drifts inside to narrow the pitch in between. At Brazil, you have Fred up top who is quite static, and holds his position therefore neymar can have an extra free role. At nafta messi has that freedom to drift about in and out of pockets, you obviously can't have the wide guy on the left doing the same thing.

Anyways, that's my understanding of it. Maybe a barca fan can confirm if neymar was restricted last season and what the reasons for that were if so.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You do actually.

Ronaldo's been shite an' all but you're underestimating his influence in games where he's at his best. When he's on song for Madrid he absolutely does dominate games. Puts the fear of God in defenders every time he gets on the ball and all their best football goes through him. Seen nothing like this from Neymar in this tournament (or in a Barca shirt, come to think of it).
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I disagree that Ronaldo dominates games, and of course Neymar isn't nearly as good as the best player in the world and one of the best in history. He gets underrated because Brazil overrated him so horribly as the next Jesus before he went to Europe.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You do actually.

Ronaldo's been shite an' all but you're underestimating his influence in games where he's at his best. When he's on song for Madrid he absolutely does dominate games. Puts the fear of God in defenders every time he gets on the ball and all their best football goes through him. Seen nothing like this from Neymar in this tournament (or in a Barca shirt, come to think of it).
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Absolutely. Dominating games isn't just dropping deep to boss the game. Suarez is another example of that from last season. Ribery has done the same.
 
Annahnomoss said:
I disagree that Ronaldo dominates games, and of course Neymar isn't nearly as good as the best player in the world and one of the best in history. He gets underrated because Brazil overrated him so horribly as the next Jesus before he went to Europe.
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I don't see how he's underrated. He's obviously a very good footballer. Few people, other than pete, think he's average
 
amolbhatia100 said:
I think you're overrating the rigidity of his role at barca. It doesn't seem very different to the usual wide player barca who starts wide but drifts inside to narrow the pitch in between. At Brazil, you have Fred up top who is quite static, and holds his position therefore neymar can have an extra free role. At nafta messi has that freedom to drift about in and out of pockets, you obviously can't have the wide guy on the left doing the same thing.

Anyways, that's my understanding of it. Maybe a barca fan can confirm if neymar was restricted last season and what the reasons for that were if so.
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The proof of that it actually is possible is that Pedro, Sanchez, Henry and Villa played those roles by cutting inside while Messi was thriving and the team was playing well. The only one who is camps out wide is Neymar, who in Brazil both in NT and for his club has always been drifting centrally naturally.

A player who loves cutting inside and always has, suddenly stops doing so when he joined Barcelona. We will never find out why unless him or the manager makes a statement, but it makes more sense that Neymar has been restricted tactically than that he changes his natural style of play as soon as he puts on the Barcelona jersey.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Hasn't particularly impressed me in this WC, if I'm honest. He's racked up more goals than his overall contriution would merit. Which happens. Nowhere near as consistently influential as someone like Robben or Sanchez has been.

Brazil's group is fecking pants too. Cameroon are so bad it's untrue. Not only the worst team in this tournament, arguably the worst of the previous 2 or 3 as well. Croatia are a bit meh, too. Only faced one defensively resolute and organised team and was fairly anonymous throughout. The real tests are still to come.
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Agree. I haven't seen him doing toi many things apart from the goals(goals are important though), and being fouled. He is direct and all that, but that team is based on him and from what I have seen Brazil as a team are nothing special. He is miles ahead of the likes of Hulk mind you.
 
Annahnomoss said:
The proof of that it actually is possible is that Pedro, Sanchez, Henry and Villa played those roles by cutting inside while Messi was thriving and the team was playing well. The only one who is camps out wide is Neymar, who in Brazil both in NT and for his club has always been drifting centrally naturally.

A player who loves cutting inside and always has, suddenly stops doing so when he joined Barcelona. We will never find out why unless him or the manager makes a statement, but it makes more sense that Neymar has been restricted tactically than that he changes his natural style of play as soon as he puts on the Barcelona jersey.
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You are making it sound like he plays Valencia role for them. He cuts inside all the time for them, and he was poor when Messi missed few games too.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
He is now our sixth highest goalscorer, having overtaken Rivaldo, Jairzinho, and Ronaldinho yesterday. 35 goals in 52 matches- insane.
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35 goals in 52 games isn't insane in itself. He's only 22 though and is likely to reach 40 + goals for Brazil before turning 23 - now, that's insane.

Think he's got everything to be a big hit: great technique, imagination, vision, pace, explosiviness, productivity, leadership qualities. And confidence. He was the best player at the Confederations Cup last year, scoring goals against Mexico, Italy and Spain. Will be interesing to see whether he could repeat that achievment now. Anyway, think he's great to watch.
 
Treble said:
35 goals in 52 games isn't insane in itself. He's only 22 though and is likely to reach 40 + goals for Brazil before turning 23 - now, that's insane.

Think he's got everything to be a big hit: great technique, imagination, vision, pace, explosiviness, productivity, leadership qualities. And confidence. He was the best player at the Confederations Cup last year, scoring goals against Mexico, Italy and Spain. Will be interesing to see whether he could repeat that achievment now. Anyway, think he's great to watch.
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At international level the ratios are different. Messi has a worse ratio for Argentina than Neymar for Brazil, both Ronaldo's has worse ratios as well to put it in to perspective.
 
If Rooney had played a sub-par game but scored a rubbish penalty & another goal in the opening game, people on here would be raving about how the sign of a world class player is to be able to score and win games even when not in-form, with the penalty having hit the net being the only thing that matters. Then if Rooney had played a game like Neymar did yesterday, everyone would again be talking about how, although the game was not difficult, he was the one to score the first two & so he was the one to set them on their way. Messi plays in a side of similar quality (speaking generously, here) and has played to a much lower standard, but his magnificent winning goals have been (rightly) applauded by everyone. Neymar is top scorer and has played very well twice from three games, while being much younger.

Neymar has a mountain of pressure on his spindly little shoulders, though one would never guess if you've watched him play these last three games. He's not put a foot wrong, so far (a little mediocre in the Mexico game, but not unlike his teammates). Before anyone accuses me of being a fan-boy, I was always very quick to criticize him in the past & label him as a huge disappointment for Barca (where I feel he deserves all the criticism he has received, so far). He is a 22 year old kid who is playing in his first World Cup for the host nation that, despite being weaker than at least three or four other sides (on paper), is expected to win the tournament - nothing less. He is the sole star of the side which has no other decent forwards at its disposal.

To say he has been anything other than great, at the least, is simply madness to me. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but he is really delivering for them. He's involved in everything they do, and is top scorer.
 
By the way, I said a few posts back that - despite the goals - Neymar hasn't struck me as one of the best 3 or 4 players in the world, which is what he's being touted as.

Amongst others, James Rodriguez has impressed me more. Based on their respective performances in this tournament I'd rather the Colombian at my club. His 45 minutes tonight were far more impressive than anything Neymar has produced IMO.
 
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