Alex Salmond and Independence
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Ok.
Imperialism dragged loads of people into both world wars, the number of Irish casualties, for example, is staggering.
Also lots of English, Welsh and Irish men died. Not mention my colonial ancestors (Indian/Trinidadian) also died in the name of British interests. Your point? Most would have like Scrumpet said, find comfort in their families, comrades and the future they were supposedly fighting for.
This is so poorly informed its ridiculous. Have you been in Scotland at all over the past two years, spoken to many Yes voters? Scots voting yes want to have a closer relationship with them post independence than the English do according to opinion polls. It's a matter of removing a democratic deficit and no longer being ruled by a Westminster with a flawed voting system and unelected second chamber.
To suggest its anti-English sentiment carrying public opinion is just lazy and shows a complete lack of understanding of Scottish politics. Debates in pubs, clubs, school playgrounds, football teams - every weekend. On the currency union, on nuclear weapons, on the West Lothian question, on Nato membership, on maintaining University standards. Issues of nationhood, real principled position grand ideas not argued over for a generation - a higher engagement rate in politics than ever before, with the nation divided almost in half over the issue. And you chalk a large part of this up to anti-English sentiment? feck off.
Not sure it really matters for people in England and what will remain of Britain, but makes me sad to think we could no longer be united with Scotland, you think about all Scottish people who have fought wars for Britain/died for Britain/competed for Britain on the world stage (Olympics etc) and its just sad
I think what's even sadder is a large part of Scots who will be voting 'yes' will only be voting yes due to their hatered of England, more so than what's really best for them and for Scotland as a whole.
I think they could come to regret it if Salmond gets what he wants.
Dear fecking god. Without doubt, one of the most ridiculous things ive read on this forum.
You beat me to it.
I seriously doubt there are weekly debates on school playgrounds about nuclear weapons and Nato membership.
What i said is ridiculous at all, what is ridiculous is you making our there is no hatred towards English in Scotland and thinking there will be no 'yes' votes just to be no longer joined at the hip with England, even the SNP and Alex Salmond (the people behind the 'yes' campaign) often get accused of having an agenda towards England, more so than what's really best for Scotland:-
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/04/03/anti-englishness-and-the-snp/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...SNP-of-exploiting-anti-English-sentiment.html
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/04/03/anti-englishness-and-the-snp/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...SNP-of-exploiting-anti-English-sentiment.html
You'd be surprised. Do they have a nuanced view on NATO membership? Of course not, but they are getting stuck in regardless. Teenagers have been engaged in huge numbers, probably due to lowering the voting age, and the nuclear question seems to be a core issue for them, particularly here in Glasgow where it is very 'real' to students, as the weapons of mass destruction are driven through our streets. It is spoken about in Modern Studies and Philosophy classes on a daily basis currently, at least in the school I once attended. If you speak to kids who go to secondary schools in Scotland - they are talking about this referendum way more than any other political issue, both in and out of classes.
First of all at no point did I deny there was hatred toward the English. However what you said was that "a large part of Scots who will be voting yes" are doing it for purely one hateful, illogical, primitive, reason which is completely without any basis. How large a portion of Scots do you think are doing this?
Then you linked me to a Telegraph article quoting John Major and a Bella Caledonia blog which, if you read it, is actually defending the SNP against the accusations you make
And you're basing this mass generalisation of myself and my fellow Scots on...?
EDIT: I fell for the troll...
Trying to think if I've heard as big a generalisation at any point about the English, even from the nationalist chunk of the Yes movement. Struggling.
Not sure it really matters for people in England and what will remain of Britain, but makes me sad to think we could no longer be united with Scotland, you think about all Scottish people who have fought wars for Britain/died for Britain/competed for Britain on the world stage (Olympics etc) and its just sad
I think what's even sadder is a large part of Scots who will be voting 'yes' will only be voting yes due to their hatered of England, more so than what's really best for them and for Scotland as a whole.
I think they could come to regret it if Salmond gets what he wants.
As someone who knows a lot of Yes voters, I know literally no one who is voting Yes because they hate the English. Seriously, no one. It's just a massive generalisation that seems to be used by people who don't really know all that much about the debate.
I'm not saying that everyone who votes Yes also absolutely loves England. Yes, a lot of us find it quite entertaining when you do shite in the World Cup, and there might be aspects of England we're not particularly keen on, but be rest assured that the vast majority of people who are voting Yes are doing so because they love Scotland, not because they hate England.
There is a large sentiment of people who are anti-Westminster, but that's very different to being anti-English, especially when an institution such as Westminster is very relevant in a political debate. I think the anti-Westminster sentiment can often be confused with the supposed anti-English sentiment which really doesn't exist. The whole Braveheart freedom idea which people seem to think is influencing this debate really is a myth. You'll have a small minority of people who are into that, but for everyone who's like that, you'll have someone on the opposite side who will want to preserve the union at all costs, displaying the same levels of blind British nationalism as you're labeling at a lot of Scots.
good post.
It's not a hatred vote but at the end of the day it'll be a 'bawbies in the pocket' call, ie No.
Numbers above are unconfirmed.
Edit:
From the YouGov website.
Scottish Referendum: Yes Campaign Takes Lead
Confirmed.
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A yes vote will plunge the UK & Scottish economies (as they will be) into a recession, due to the uncertainty in business, and lack of investment. I really want the separation to happen if it's what the people of Scotland want, so everyone can get on with their lives. The current situation I think is unacceptable, with Scotland getting a different deal from those in England, prescription charges, tuition fees etc.
from a purely economic standpoint it would seem it is better for Scotland to remain part of the UK.
And Panelbase still has No ahead.
I've been following this campaign throughout and with the best will in the world, never expected to see Yes ahead in the polls - especially YouGov. Totally thrilled right now but also absolutely gobsmacked.
Thought the no vote had it in the bag .But the momentum of the yes vote as gathered at a alarming pace.This could actually happen.
As a non-Brit I'm indifferent to the outcome but if the Scots to vote to maintain the union I hope Fifia uses this as a excuse to force a unified UK football team.
I found out the other day that the leader of the Irish home rule party in Westminster spoke for and voted for entry into the first world war.
They're panicking down in Westminster . All of a sudden they now have a detailed package to allow Scotland to have more power over taxes , welfare and spending.
It is tricky trying to decide what to do about Scotland leaving and what the English approach should be. At the moment there has not been a well thought out response as to English demands versus Scottish demands. Any mention of thinking about after a yes vote would give credence/oxygen to the nationalist agenda. Any stance which looked hard line would be seen as bullying or threatening which would and has, in so far as it has been mentioned, back fire. I think Scotland will vote yes and I’m not sure I know what the fall out will be in England as a result.
We can't do anything about the vote or its outcome and will have to deal with it when it happens. The way I have started to look at this is that when the oil runs out in 20 years we (England) might have ducked a bullet in that this is the last time the Scots would leave voluntarily and it removes quite a legacy cost to the exchequer.
The only disappointment I would have is that if Scotland stayed in the Union I could see an English parliament gaining support and that would be a chance to move some of the gov't out of the south east. Though that might be a pipe dream.
My main concern is who we have negotiating for England after a yes vote and how hard are they prepared to press our interests because at that point I would want them to be as hard in the settlement terms as possible. We need to start thinking about how we gain the whip hand in those negotiations given the separation wasn't our idea there are cost implications to us and we at that point owe Scotland nothing.
I can’t see the point in having any Scottish involvement in the general election post a yes vote. I don’t want whoever wins the next election held up with Scottish votes as that is a clear conflict of interest. I say that as life long labour voter. If Scotland is taking part in the general election I’m not sure I could vote labour in the general election as they would be compromised by their Scottish MP’s/party membership.
We can't do anything about the vote or its outcome and will have to deal with it when it happens. The way I have started to look at this is that when the oil runs out in 20 years we (England) might have ducked a bullet in that this is the last time the Scots would leave voluntarily and it removes quite a legacy cost to the exchequer.
The only disappointment I would have is that if Scotland stayed in the Union I could see an English parliament gaining support and that would be a chance to move some of the gov't out of the south east. Though that might be a pipe dream.
My main concern is who we have negotiating for England after a yes vote and how hard are they prepared to press our interests because at that point I would want them to be as hard in the settlement terms as possible. We need to start thinking about how we gain the whip hand in those negotiations given the separation wasn't our idea there are cost implications to us and we at that point owe Scotland nothing.
I can’t see the point in having any Scottish involvement in the general election post a yes vote. I don’t want whoever wins the next election held up with Scottish votes as that is a clear conflict of interest. I say that as life long labour voter. If Scotland is taking part in the general election I’m not sure I could vote labour in the general election as they would be compromised by their Scottish MP’s/party membership.
Free Scotland
Personally having lived for many years in Scotland and my brother still lives there I feel that Scotland should continue to be a part of the UK, on another note Scotland if they do decide on Independence then as an independent state they should go it alone in every way, Scottish MPs no longer in Parliament, own monitory system etc. etc and maybe the Scots will one day rue the day they listened to King Alex the first of Scotland.
There are reports of trouble between yes and no voters with threats etc. is this what Scotland has become instead of one proud nation stood together for better or for worse.
There are reports of trouble between yes and no voters with threats etc. is this what Scotland has become instead of one proud nation stood together for better or for worse.
I don't want relations between the two countries to become acrimonious if the Scots do vote for independence but it seems quite obvious to me that if the Scots do vote for independence, they should have no involvement in the General election. That is logical surely?
Squeaky bum time now.
It's ridiculous but bloody good for Labour (tho' it signals their demise as an electable party in future).
I wouldn't be surprised if these promises of new powers push people away. Less than two weeks before the vote, it really doesn't reflect well on the No campaign.
The No campaign has been terrible from the start - fecking stupid scare tactics. Depressing feel like a Yes vote is more likely at this point, the momentum is all on their side, and Cameron is about to visit Scotland...
Agree entirely, its beyond ridiculous. Imagine a Labour government, or god forbid, a minority victory... could there ever be a more unpopular government than a Miliband-Clegg led co-alition in the UK post Scotland?
Meh, we don't really have all that much of an impact on lots of the elections. In the future, if Labour were much more popular than the Tories in the lead-up to an election then they'd get in anyway. Our vote is fairly small, part of the reason a lot of people would much rather we were independent so got the government we voted for.
59 seats is certainly significant when you can be confident the Conservatives will win somewhere between 0 and 1 seat. Take the last general election, it's the difference between a Conservative majority and the coalition we ended up with.
59 seats is more than enough seats to swing elections, especially when so many of those seats are held by Labour MPs.
What are the Scots on here voting for then? I'm the first generation of my (Scottish) family to be born in England. Obviously hoping for a no vote, but think I'd be pretty passionately 'Yes' if I'd grown up in Scotland. The opportunity for a self-governing Scotland, free of the Tories, seems worth everything that might be lost.
- RUK is Rest of United Kingdom.
Has only made a difference in 2010 and 1974 in the last 50 years. Though if you assume election results are going to continue to get closer and less volatile in the medium-term future, and that the Conservative share of the vote in Scotland won't grow back to its 70s levels (ha!), no Scotland will make a hugely significant difference in future elections...
Has only made a difference in 2010 and 1974 in the last 50 years. Though if you assume election results are going to continue to get closer and less volatile in the medium-term future, and that the Conservative share of the vote in Scotland won't grow back to its 70s levels (ha!), no Scotland will make a hugely significant difference in future elections...