Scottish people who were born and grew up in Scotland and now live in England or across the EU will very much be affected by a referendum in which they have no say whatsoever.
Alex Salmond and Independence
- Thread starter Team Brian GB
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Scottish people who were born and grew up in Scotland and now live in England or across the EU will very much be affected by a referendum in which they have no say whatsoever.
And where do you think the majority of that money comes from? English taxes.
We're assigned our budget based on the Barnett formula, roughly based on how much we contribute to the UK as a whole. It's not as if we're getting assigned this budget for sitting there playing with ourselves, is it?
I completely disagree that the rest of the Union should be allowed to vote in the referendum though.
True, although non-Scottish people within those countries will also be affected. It's an issue I've been largely split on, as I can see the sense in people from outwith Scotland voting to an extent, but ultimately I think it makes sense for it to be one that those living in Scotland vote on.
He called us Scotch twice there. He's clearly a troll, why bother arguing? Just sit doon wi a cup of royal game soup an' tell im tae haud his wheesht, ken?
I do have a question, and you're making a much better fist of this than Pink Moon, so I'll point it at you...
If you vote yes, then what happens to all those Scots working across the EU if, as seems likely, the likes of Spain start throwing up obstacles to you joining the EU?
They will be but to nowhere near the same extent. I have 'British' nationality but live in England. Scotland leaves. Perhaps one or both of the economies will tank and we'll all become homeless, perhaps prices will go up a bit. Most likely mine and my family's lives go on pretty much as before. That is not the same for a Scottish person living in England for example, who immediately post independence will find themselves suddenly working in a foreign country without a visa.
I'm not talking about people who have one Scottish grandparent but people who were born and raised in Scotland.
As I've said before, I don't have a particularly strong opinion either way but that seems to be quite unfair, especially considering the talk of some Yes voters about a motivating factor in voting yes being a lack of proper democracy coming from Westminster.
I'm not talking about people who have one Scottish grandparent but people who were born and raised in Scotland.
As I've said before, I don't have a particularly strong opinion either way but that seems to be quite unfair, especially considering the talk of some Yes voters about a motivating factor in voting yes being a lack of proper democracy coming from Westminster.
No, and it would virtually guarantee a conservative government for the foreseeable future, so don't think they would be that arsed.
Yep my scottish colleagues are mad as feck about this.
Well, by citing the problems that would come with not letting us join the EU, that's a major reason as to why it would make sense to let us join. We're obviously a different case in that while an iScotland would effectively not be part of the EU as it'd no longer be in the UK, it'd make sense for Europe to remain stable by allowing us into the EU, especially when Scotland has plenty of it's own resources that the EU would otherwise lose out on if they weren't to allow us to join.
The threat of the Spanish vetoeing us is a bit concerning, but again, in the interests of a smooth transition which doesn't cause too much damage across Europe, I think it would make sense to allow us into the EU.
There could also be the argument that even as part of the UK, Scotland as a country could be considered as being part of the EU, so should be allowed to continue in that manner after the referendum. But even if it's seen otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for the EU countries to refuse us entry when doing so could cause major problems, as you say.
Thanks for that, Cheesy !
In which case, why bother having a wishy washy Tory who is socially to the left of the party, when you can dump him for a proper Tory and still win a majority.
Here comes Boris
Everyone in the parties has banked on a NO vote????
I'm pretty confident there will be a no vote. But if there isn't...
This.Here comes Boris
Why will the banks etc relocate to England if it's a YES vote ?
What purpose will this serve ?
What purpose will this serve ?
Don't take this as a pop at you personally, it's not....
That answer is an example of the real issue with the yes campaign, they have no definitive answer to anything, they just rely on theory/assumption. The more I watch, the more convinced I am that this is more about Alex Salmond wanting his place in history and the less it is about being the right thing for Scotland.
Salmond's not really that popular though.
This is about Labour and the Lib Dems losing the faith of Scots. Five years of Tory rule isn't tolerable when even the alternative doesn't appeal.
This is about Labour and the Lib Dems losing the faith of Scots. Five years of Tory rule isn't tolerable when even the alternative doesn't appeal.
Much of that does make sense though, does it not? Yeah, there's basing something off of a theory, but if that theory has some pretty solid logic then it makes sense, especially when you're getting the benefits of having your own government elected solely by the people of your country. I agree that there are major risks to this, but I personally think that we'd get into the EU in the end, due to the fact that it ultimately makes sense and would result in a more smooth transition.
To be fair to Salmond, if he's really been plotting to break up the UK since the 1970's when he started to become politically active for the sole intention of getting his own name in the history books, then he's one crafty bastard. As has been said throughout, this campaign isn't just about him, or the SNP. That's why the thread title annoys me to an extent. Independence would give us the opportunity to elect our own government, whether that be Salmond and his buddies or not.
Aye, there's a view at the moment that it doesn't really matter as to who gets in next year, since it's ultimately probably going to result in more austerity. Many Scots vote Labour at the general election because there's really no alternative. It's that or the Tories.
The problem is that since Scotland is generally a more left-leaning country than England politically, the UK politicians are going to do what appeals more to English voters, because that's where the vast majority of their votes come from. New Labour and their initial success is a prime example of that, in a sense.
Can't agree with you more. Also there is no way Spain will let Scotland in the EU, and if they pull stunts such as not honouring their share of UK debt then then Brussels will deck them right off.
Alex & cronies still refuse to explain exactly how they'll provide a solution to the currency issue. The proportion of money held by the banks that actually belongs to Scottish clients is small, by being based in England the banks will get the full support & protection offered by the Bank of England which will keep their non-Scottish customers much happier. If they don't move, then a lot of investors will take their money out of the banks and place them in competitors that are registered in England.
But if we're not automatically gaining entry due to not being part of the UK, surely we can't be condemned for not taking the share of debt from a state that we're no longer a part of?
Tempted to quote myself here, but that looks weird, so just reference it... Pic I posted earlier shows it's those who voted Labour at the last election that are the most likley to vote "Yes". Pretty damning that Labour voters want independence more than SNP voters.
The most supportive demographic of independence is largely the working class, traditionally Labour voters, because despite the risks of independence, some of them are in a position so shite to the point where it really can't get much worse for them, so they may as well vote for change in the hope that it's some sort of improvement. Since the message got through that this isn't about Alex Salmond, or any particular politician for that matter, there's been a lot of Labour voters who have decided to support independence. The stats on people going to foodbanks and the number of children living in poverty are shocking. To them, the idea that we're "Better Together" is almost comical, whether or not you think Scotland would be worse off with a Yes vote.
Therein lies the circular argument that has been constructed by the yes campaign...
If you want the pound you have to vote no. If you vote yes, you lose the pound, at which point you say you'll drop any responsibility for debt. You really think the likes of France, Germany etc will allow a country into the EU that reneges on debt, especially after the Spain/Greece/Italy euro zone rescue?
We don't. Whether or not we're in a currency union post-Yes is a different matter, but we can't be stopped from using a currency that any country can use. Again, if we're not being allowed into the EU because we're no longer part of the UK, why would we be forced to take on the debt of the UK?
Why would Scotland automatically gain entry wtf, where does that come from? It's so typical of the yes campaign to assume they'll be granted membership. I will humour you in a response, the EU has economic qualification criteria, such as levels of national debt, if that was being disputed then there is no way the EU would grant membership. For sure, the rest of the UK will be in dispute with Scotland due to the yes party having assumed all sorts of rights that they don't actually have you can guarantee the UK will veto Scotland's EU membership.
Read one of my posts earlier on that I made. We can't guarantee that we'll get into the EU, but I've already said above that there's a solid argument for us getting into the EU. Plus, there could be an argument that we wouldn't be kicked out at all, since the citizens of Scotland are already members of the EU, although that would be a lot less strong an argument.
You do. You can go ahead and call your currency the pound, and link it to the value of the real pound, but it isn't the same currency, nor will it be treated the same way by currency markets, import/export markets etc. Unless you are going to continue to allow the BofE to control your currency, in which case you've not gained any form of independence. And you've not read what I wrote, I said if you want to join the EU then you'll need to be considered a country in good financial standing, if your first action when independent is to refuse to pay a share of a debt that you're partially responsible for then that's not going to happen is it?
Again, why are we partially responsible for the debt of a country that we'd no longer be a part of? Our intention would be to take on a share of the debt out of goodwill, assuming we get a fair deal from rUK whether that be with assets or a potential currency union, but Scotland would not be obligated to take on UK debt if we're not getting a fair deal.
Solid argument wtf, it's all supposition (sounds familiar). Spain and the UK won't allow it, what exactly could Scotland do?
So, a married couple take out a joint mortgage, then get divorced...who is responsible for settling the debt?
Exactly, put the flip side of that is the pound is a marital asset and the rest of the UK can't just claim it for themselves. If you expect the Scots to pick up their share of marital debt you have to share marital assets.
That's irrelevant to the argument here. If we're not part of the United Kingdom, we're not obligated to take on a share of the United Kingdom's debt. Sorry, but it's as simple as that.
Surely because it was a debt that Scotland helped accumulate.
Spain have not officially said they will block our proposed entry, while the UK refusing us entry would cause chaos in regards to people from Scotland/England living in the other country, and would force them to spend a shitload of money in enforcing a land border when the most sensible option would be to not deny our entry.
But we wouldn't be part of that United Kingdom anymore. Yeah, we helped accumulate it, but we're not legally responsible for it if we're not part of the state that has it anymore.
The marital assets in this case are things like roads, hospitals etc, the infrastructure that was built using the money. Or are you planning on giving all that back?
It's like me borrowing £500k from Natwest, moving to Outer Mongolia and then saying "I don't live in the UK anymore so go feck yourself Natwest, I'm not paying you a penny".