And you have no problems with van Gaal sailing this 'spend-off', rather than implementing values at youth level and developing a sustainable base of fresh talent as he was claimed to be good at?
The future under Van Gaal - lay your chips
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
It will all depend on if he gets us into the CL with his shitty football or not. I'm pretty sure that's the most defining factor on how he will get evaluated by the board. Especially since I doubt our football will improve much till the end of the season.
Hodgson at Liverpool - July 2010 to Jan 2011.
bloody hell, I was wondering when the "we'd be better off if we lost games so he would get sacked" stuff would start up again.
I reckon LVG sees 352 as a means to and end; he doesn't trust our defensive options so he's playing this way to compensate. My expectation is a restructuring of our defense and maybe a wide player, with a shift to 433 next year
Is there any reason to think that this isnt also happening? We can hardly wait 5 years til our 16yos are all good enough for the first team, or go for promising young talent and not worry about top 4 for a while.
One title, one FA Cup, one CL semi-final.
I think we'll scrape top 4 this year. Switch formations to 4-3-3 or similar after a summer of big spending. We'll challenge for the league but fade away in years 2 and 3. Probably win a cup. Have a decent tilt at the CL one of the years. Then he'll leave
I think this is a pretty good summary of where I'm at as well.
I think he will stay unless they get wind of another big name manager becoming available.
We have the money and resources to do both, I feel.
We should realistically win our next 4 games (FA Cup game and 3 BPL games). We really need to gather some momentum again. Gain confidence within the 3-5-2, and then play well.
My break down of our summer transfers would be: only Rojo and Blind were really his transfers, you have to talk in terms of percentages. More than 50% means they are 'his' transfers, obviously at every club with every manager it is a mix of the board's (long term) wishes and the coach his (shorter term) wishes.
SAF commented the club had been following Shaw and Herrera for years and deals were in the making at the end of last season. If Giggs was still our manager I'd say it is likely we would've also gotten Shaw and Herrera. Van Gaal could've said no though, so they're 50% United transfer - 50% Van Gaal transfer.
Would we have signed Blind if Van Gaal had not come to us? I highly doubt it, so Blind is 95-100% a Van Gaal transfer.
Rojo wasn't mentioned much and Van Gaal made comments about liking him when analysing Argentina: at least 75% Van Gaal transfer, Argentina were prolific because of the WC final, there is a small chance we would've gotten him even if Giggs was our manager this season.
Di Maria struck me as a case of getting our hands on whatever 'world class' player was available. I think it's very likely we would've been interested in him if Giggs was still our manager. But again, Van Gaal liked him for sure and could have said no. So 50% United transfer - 50% Van Gaal transfer.
Welbeck was never going to be first choice striker and wanted out. So we replaced him with Falcao on deadline day. But we haven't signed him, so it's not a real transfer yet. I assume most other managers than Van Gaal wouldn't say no to replacing Welbeck with Falcao though.
Taking into account 4th is absolutely vital for us this year, looking at the long run with our billion dollar sponsor contracts based on CL and also the rival clubs who benefit from us not performing/not being in the CL (makes us unnatractive for quality players) Van Gaal still has used a lot of youngsters, so I don't see much problems on the youth front.
Presuming he stays the 3 years of his deal I think:
We probably won't win a league title.
We'll probably qualify for the CL every season (if we make it this season I think we'll continue to do so)
We'll be decidedly better than under Moyes, decidedly worse than under Fergie (in terms of results).
We'll likely win a cup or two.
The next manager will have a decent base to work from.
We'll continue to have big signings and will continue to fluff our lines in the market.
Not all of that will be down to him, obviously. He inherited a lot of issues and with the age profiles we have at the club, he'll no sooner have rebuild than we'll be due another one, unless he's very proactive and we start moving on the likes of RvP.
We probably won't win a league title.
We'll probably qualify for the CL every season (if we make it this season I think we'll continue to do so)
We'll be decidedly better than under Moyes, decidedly worse than under Fergie (in terms of results).
We'll likely win a cup or two.
The next manager will have a decent base to work from.
We'll continue to have big signings and will continue to fluff our lines in the market.
Not all of that will be down to him, obviously. He inherited a lot of issues and with the age profiles we have at the club, he'll no sooner have rebuild than we'll be due another one, unless he's very proactive and we start moving on the likes of RvP.
As much as Van Gaal annoys me, if we get top 4 then i'm happy to write this season off as an experimenting first season.
Next season is another matter though.
Next season is another matter though.
F.A Cup this year, the league next year and a quarter finals appearance in the CL before his time here is done.
He's been annoying and cowardly with his tactics. I predict he'll be gone sooner than expected if this continues. The away fans have already started to lose patience with the 352. I wonder how the home fans are going to react.
Whats so spoilt about it? Should questions not be asked anymore? Are the away going match fans spoilt for chanting 4-4-2?
I actually think he might walk in the summer, regardless of top 4 or not.
Historically he will leave out big names and I can't see that being part of the Woodward plan of creating a team of recognised stars. He seems too stubborn to want to change and ultimately I think that will be his downfall.
He doesn't seem up to it and I think his ego made him under estimate the size of the club (see whining about the travel on the tour). Even if he does stay, I really don't see him lasting longer than next season.
Historically he will leave out big names and I can't see that being part of the Woodward plan of creating a team of recognised stars. He seems too stubborn to want to change and ultimately I think that will be his downfall.
He doesn't seem up to it and I think his ego made him under estimate the size of the club (see whining about the travel on the tour). Even if he does stay, I really don't see him lasting longer than next season.
On what is the prediction that we'll overcome City next season based?
I wouldn't put it in such black and white terms. I have faith in the manager, I think he has brought a lot of good things already, first and foremost he's improved our belief and confidence. I also would like to see us capable of playing possession football, where more than half our team is actually comfortable with the ball. That's quite an ambitious aim, given that we've not had that for years. He also has a track record of improving players. And, I hope, he works hard on our off the ball movement, though that has yet to be manifested into our actual games.
However, I do think there are elements where he can improve. The Prem is different from every league he has managed in before. The strategy of patience works in Europe, but against lesser opposition in the Prem I think we'd be better off by trying to kill the game as soon as possible + incorporate attacking outlets in our team that can be devastating on the break. This does not rule out possession-based football. It's where that possession is and how it is utilized.
I expected a lot more from him - though of course our injury troubles cannot be underestimated. The next few weeks will be crucial and we'll be in a better position to evaluate van Gaal.
Like @Pogue Mahone I don't think finishing outside the top 4 is an automatically sackable offense. It would set us back massively no doubt, especially when it comes to recruiting in the summer. But changing manager yet again (which I've never entertained) would set us back even further, with another manager coming in and slowing our progression as a club, evaluating deadwood, maybe not fancying new expensive players etc. The difference between this season and last, if we were to finish outside the top 4, is that Moyes never ever seemed to have what it takes to manage United, the whole atmosphere around him was one of inferiority and lack of authority. Not so with van Gaal, at all.
I'd just like him to be more flexible in his approach, thinking more about the whole shape of the team and maybe not be so married to the idea of fielding two superstar strikers every game, at the expense of our movement, pace and balance in midfield.
I think we'll finish top 4 this season - just. Then we'll spend a lot of money in the summer, move away from the 3-5-2 system and finish a more comfortable third next season, with a CL quarter final and a domestic cup final. I have my doubts about whether we'll be challenging for the title in a couple of years, but if City fall away for whatever reason (wishful thinking) or Mourinho gets bored at Chelsea, you never know.
Scolari?
Also I agree with Pexbo, you're wumming with the whole 'half season' thing. Our final league position was established and he got a full run in all the cups. What would those extra 4 games have proved/achieved? He got a full season for all intents and purposes.
If we just miss out on the Champions League, are you still confident that we'll get those top targets?
Yep. Money speaks especially given the squad we have and the additions likely.
We already seen the first examples of matchday fans turning on him. This is only going to get worse if he continues in this vain. He obviously recognises this because he has uncharacteristically come out and defended his ideas this week, but also says he isn't looking to change them anytime soon.
Like with any football club, you lose the fans and you're very likely to lose your job.
Like with any football club, you lose the fans and you're very likely to lose your job.
This thread could do with a poll.
I think he will be here for the full term of his 3 year contract. I don't doubt for 1 second that in that period we will fall outside of the top 4. I also feel that we will challenge for a title. Perhaps not next year, though I expect it to be a better effort than this one but certainly by year 3. Get the feeling that a cup of some sort will arrive too.
I think he will be here for the full term of his 3 year contract. I don't doubt for 1 second that in that period we will fall outside of the top 4. I also feel that we will challenge for a title. Perhaps not next year, though I expect it to be a better effort than this one but certainly by year 3. Get the feeling that a cup of some sort will arrive too.
Well, in his press conference I'm glad he mentioned that fans, media etc are not at the training ground or meetings with his staff. It's quite easy to be wise without the evidence or proof! I really hope he gets it right, but the one thing that bugs me is that this is really his swansong of a job. It's his last shout, which kind of means that if it goes tits up, then he still has a past to be respected, it won't destroy much really, especially at his age. This could mean he has a bit less ambition than he no doubt had when he was younger. It might not seem that important, but it certainly is, because it can influence all your decision making, determination, focus....
Brutally early?
He got pretty much the entire season and was sacked only once we werent even in contention for top 4 numerically. All cups as well. If anything, given how obvious it was that he was out of his depth, we were were patient.
I still trust him. I don't enjoy the 3-5-2, and feel di Maria is completely wasted as a striker. But I can see the sense.
My predictions:
We will see 3-5-2 for most of the rest of the season, even when Rafa and Shaw are fit.
The performance levels will improve and we will all calm down.
We will finish 3rd, have conceded the fewest amount of goals in the league yet will still get lots of criticism from most.
We will see another summer of upheaval with a few players arriving and even more leaving.
De Gea will get a new contract.
van Gaal will see out his contract and during his time we will be a pragmatic, conservative team which is quite solid and has lots of possession.
We will see 3-5-2 for most of the rest of the season, even when Rafa and Shaw are fit.
The performance levels will improve and we will all calm down.
We will finish 3rd, have conceded the fewest amount of goals in the league yet will still get lots of criticism from most.
We will see another summer of upheaval with a few players arriving and even more leaving.
De Gea will get a new contract.
van Gaal will see out his contract and during his time we will be a pragmatic, conservative team which is quite solid and has lots of possession.
Any other top club would of fired him long before we did. In fact no top club apart from us would of even had him shortlisted to manage their team let alone hire him.
Its funny how our own fans turn on the manager so quickly. We are in the top 4 with a decent run over the last few months and the players all seem extremely happy with what LVG is doing, yet people here are all having hissy fits because we can't play our new shiny toys in their preferred position.
Our defense is rubbish and I completely agree with him about the balance, and I absolutely hate 352. If you look at all the teams he had coached they have all gone on to become a much better side during/after his tenure.
I'd put money on us getting top 4 and having a good run in the fa cup. Then splashing the cash on the missing pieces of the jigsaw and mount a title challenge next season.
Some "fans" here would still be complaining if we go on another 10 match unbeaten run just for the sake of moaning!
Our defense is rubbish and I completely agree with him about the balance, and I absolutely hate 352. If you look at all the teams he had coached they have all gone on to become a much better side during/after his tenure.
I'd put money on us getting top 4 and having a good run in the fa cup. Then splashing the cash on the missing pieces of the jigsaw and mount a title challenge next season.
Some "fans" here would still be complaining if we go on another 10 match unbeaten run just for the sake of moaning!
Honestly can't see us making top 4 if we continue 532, we're just not scoring enough goals and our luck with that formation won't be the same against Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs.
I didn't say that though did I?
I said if we finish 4th in the state we are it'd give a false impression of progress, which in the long run will come back and bite us.
If we improve during the remainder of the season then that's a different matter. There are just no signs of that happening yet.
The mere fact that we're having this debate should indicate there's something not quite right.
Van Gaal knew that in his first days at new work and never tried to hide the fact that everything is unbalanced.
2015 - 3rd
2016 - 2nd
2017 - 1st
2018 - CL winners
Book it
2016 - 2nd
2017 - 1st
2018 - CL winners
Book it
And the end of the summer, he probably wouldn't have signed anyone that can improve United that much, then the sheep excuses will move on to blaming Woodward for being incompetent and swearing on their lives that 2016 summer transfer will be "the summer" when LVG gets who he wants, then summer 2016 arrives, rinse and repeat
Pessimist me: We will keep playing the nonsense 352 formation, end up dropping plenty of points and finish 6th. Van Gaal will stay and we will go far in Europa League next season while still coming up short from 4th in the league. Van Gaal departs.
Realist me: We will keep playing the nonsense 352, end up dropping silly points but still pip Liverpool, Spurs and Southampton to 4th. Van Gaal will stay, spend plenty of money in the Summer but we won't improve by much next season. We will become Arsenal i.e. a team that's comfortably top 4 without really challenging.
Optimist me: Van Gaal sees the sense, drops the formation, adapts his team to 4231 formation and we finish 3rd. He improves the team with 3-4 top quality players in the Summer (right back, centre half, winger, perhaps a striker too) and we challenge for the league next season.
Realist me: We will keep playing the nonsense 352, end up dropping silly points but still pip Liverpool, Spurs and Southampton to 4th. Van Gaal will stay, spend plenty of money in the Summer but we won't improve by much next season. We will become Arsenal i.e. a team that's comfortably top 4 without really challenging.
Optimist me: Van Gaal sees the sense, drops the formation, adapts his team to 4231 formation and we finish 3rd. He improves the team with 3-4 top quality players in the Summer (right back, centre half, winger, perhaps a striker too) and we challenge for the league next season.