The future under Van Gaal - lay your chips

It's seems to me that some of you are missing my point as per usual. Having seen Van Gaal in the spotlight since his early Ajax years, the type of game Van Gaal wants to play is very familiar to me as it is to anyone who has been familiar with Van Gaal over the years. Van Gaal aims to dominate by possession and possession with a purpose. This includes passing your way forward from the back. Intelligence and positional play are also crucial to Van Gaal's preferred style.
However, if you have defenders who aren't that great on the ball then it allows the opposition to combat Van Gaal's preferred style by pressuring the defenders or even allowing the weakest footballing defender to have most of the ball. The problem with this United side (as with the Netherlands have at the World Cup) is that our current crop of defenders aren't great in possession or with their decision making, hence Van Gaal's "twitchy arse" remark when referring to the so called 4-4-2 system (which is actually a 4-3-3... but that's another story...). By playing 5 at the back (it's not actually a 3-5-2 system as much as it is a 5-3-2 system in my opinion) gives our defenders more time and space to pass the ball, so this is why Van Gaal chooses to play 3-5-2 because he feels that it's a safer bet with the players he has. But, it is a short term solution. Van Gaal's preferred formation is and has always been 4-3-3. I would be very surprised if he doesn't fall back on the 4-3-3 formation once he has the squad to do so. I would expect Van Gaal to be playing a 4-3-3 formation by next season after next summer's transfer window.
 
For me the biggest problem is that he doesn't have an answer to our strike force. Other than a few minutes at the end of QPR away, the 4 strikers appear to be incapable of functioning in a two. There's no chemistry, and virtually no passes between the two.

I'm not sure RVP has ever worked well with a partner, at any point in his career, so he's not the answer. Falcao was at his best with support at Porto and then Atleti, but that support was fast and direct. Rooney has demonstrated he can work well in a 442, but is being stuck in midfield.

Given that, I'd hope we'll do one of two things:
1. Put one up top, add another body in behind (a three of Rooney/Di Maria/Mata?)
2. *shudder* Stick Fellaini up top alongside RVP/Falcao. At least he can hold the ball up, and do something with all the long balls we're playing.
 
Beachryan said:
For me the biggest problem is that he doesn't have an answer to our strike force. Other than a few minutes at the end of QPR away, the 4 strikers appear to be incapable of functioning in a two. There's no chemistry, and virtually no passes between the two.

I'm not sure RVP has ever worked well with a partner, at any point in his career, so he's not the answer. Falcao was at his best with support at Porto and then Atleti, but that support was fast and direct. Rooney has demonstrated he can work well in a 442, but is being stuck in midfield.

Given that, I'd hope we'll do one of two things:
1. Put one up top, add another body in behind (a three of Rooney/Di Maria/Mata?)
2. *shudder* Stick Fellaini up top alongside RVP/Falcao. At least he can hold the ball up, and do something with all the long balls we're playing.
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A smart person might not use a 2 in that case. In fact I think vs Chelsea we were quite good attacking wise with 1 Striker.
 
Cassidy said:
A smart person might not use a 2 in that case. In fact I think vs Chelsea we were quite good attacking wise with 1 Striker.
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Totally agree. But with the names...can LVG really leave anyone out?
 
He'll get us in the top 4, maybe an FA Cup or a Carling Cup and then be there defending his record, telling everyone what a fantastic job he's done when his time is over and after spending £300m-£400m over a 3 year period.

I've come to the conclusion he's not a top manager though, I remember Jamie Carragher saying something when when Van Gaal was first announced as United manager and he believed Van Gaal along with Sven/Capello are 1990's style managers and from what I've seen at United, i agree with him.

Probably tactically good, but too stuck in his ways to adapt like all top managers do and can when things are not working, our football is terrible, opposition always have more shots per game ratios, we've not had a penalty this season, which says to me our tempo isn't fast enough and we aren't getting in the box often enough forcing the opposition into mistakes, his substitutions are appalling & playing De Maria as striker and having Phil Jones on corner duties is mind boggling.
 
I mostly agree with Pexbo. I think he's basically just doing what he has to get top 4 this season and he should be able to fix the problems he has with the squad this summer. After that I think the style of football will start to get more attractive and we can hopefully get closer to challenging for the EPL.
 
So it's become absolutely clear that there is a big divide on Van Gaal at this moment in time. That sentence spread some goosebumps over my body. Are those doubting the proven winner ? or is it just a post Moyes psychological conditioning, that whenever a leaf falls into the bin instead of the ground at United, people fear a worst case scenario ?

Realistically, what did we expect after last seasons debacle ? Im sure we all know we were not the harmonious decibel that we were under the great Sir Alex, we were a broken record, with confidence shattered all over Sir Matt Busby way. We can not challenge for the topspot(s) when your team is lacking fundamental aspects like quality and confidence. In both areas we have improved, not in Goliat, but in David steps. All these talks about the formations and tactics, yes, i prefer the oldschool attack the wings philosophy, but as Louis stated many times, we are NOT balanced. So, there is a choice here, do we display attractive football and risk a top four position or can we for this season hold our breath, stick to a more defensive formation and secure a top 4 position. What is your choice ?

It could be that im not entirely objective, since im a dutchie, but following LVG’s career closely i can only say, dear God, if LvG can not repair us, we are in serious trouble. We should accept the fact that we wont play the most attractive football this season, because the First step in this surgery is securing a top 4 position. Woman and children First. As soon as we depart that chip on our shoulder you will see the transition( starting next season) taking major steps in a more suitable formation with players actually playing on their position.This great club is a family club and that is exactly what LVG brings to the the table. He is able to create a squad willing to fight for each other and most importantly a squad with self belief. Isnt that already an improvement judging where we came from last season ?

As Donald Trump famously said : ‘’ What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate. With Louis, who is mister calm himself, we couldnt have asked for a more suitable manager in the United era we are currently in. The media is after us, the papers are after us, but we have a history that stands behind us. No matter what you throw into our faces, we will always find a way to score. Patience is key my fellow fans.
 
We may have to determine what will make LvG a successful manager at United at the end of his three year contract, should he run his contract down of course. It's true that Ferguson retired after 26 years at the helm leaving behind the most decorated club in English football, an elite club whose crest and colours can be easily recognized by people all over the world. In that sense one can argue that Sir Alex left no room for middle ground and there's no way LvG will "get away" with a couple of domestic cups like Big Ron back in the day.

While this is true, we all witnessed last season that the whole concept of appointing a manager who would happily remain under the shadow of his great predecessor and try to bring only minor changes to the squad and the playing style went downhill. We also became very aware of the fact that not having an identity on the pitch doesn't only diminish our chances for a serious title challenge but also turns a top four finish into a real fight. I have to admit that, in the previous years, i used to treat a friend of mine, who happens to be an Arsenal fan, with an ironic smile for his opinion that Wenger should stay at the Emirates for as long as he wants. "What about winning the League for a change?" i used to ask him and his response was "You have spent so much time at the top with no one above you and it has made you forget that there's a long way down to go once you start making the wrong decisions". Well, that's one of the main reasons i'm still patient with LvG when he mentions the word 'philosophy'.

And from my point of view this is the heart of our problems in the last one and a half seasons, not the bloody formations. While we were all moaning about the zombie passing and the lack of quality in our midfield since 2011, Sir Alex was winning game after game and lifting PL trophies (or losing them in the last minute of the season). The point is that he knew the PL like the back of his hand, he knew what kind of players he needed to win it and he knew the particularities of the PL, its difficulties, the opponents and how to approach a series of bad results. And that didn't happen overnight, it took some time and a lot of belief from the board that the manager who had achieved so much at Aberdeen could make it work at United.

LvG's credentials, from Ajax to Bayern Munich, show a manager who can handle the pressure of being at a big club and lead them to winning trophies. His hot temperament hasn't allowed him to last long at the clubs he's worked since he left Ajax but the results are there for all to see and they provide proof that his plan still brings trophies and that, despite the lack of longevity, he always leaves something good behind when he goes.

What he hasn't figured out yet is a way to win the number of matches required to challenge for the PL title and/or secure CL football. That was also Moyes' problem last season. We have spent countless hours discussing the way he's going to implement his philosophy to the team but we forget that he also must adjust to the PL standards (not necessarily higher than the other leagues but undoubtedly different). Implementing a footballing philosophy to the players is one thing, finishing the season with 90 points is another. Fergie did that for 20 years and he's considered the best there's ever been by many and apart from Jose Mourinho and Pep Guardiola there aren't many managers who can provide instant results nowadays. LvG is still struggling with that atm and that's why he's been experimenting with formations and players out of position and that's probably why he prefers, at this point, first to secure that he will not lose a match and then try to win it.

But his previous work still makes me confident that we will eventually get where we're heading. The big difference from last season is that LvG is still trying to find the best partnership at the back, the most functional midfield and the best pairing up front, regardless of what each one of us thinks about that, to make his plan work better. When i start seeing the same 11 players on the pitch week in and week out playing dire football and not winning, then i'll start worrying. I believe that by the end of the season we will have a clearer picture of what he's trying to achieve here. In the summer he will have the chance to sign more players of his liking and he will also have a clearer picture about which players out of the current squad fit in his future plans. Mourinho and Pellegrini will be in their third season at Chelsea and City next year, which is always rough in terms of changing the routine, keeping the players motivated and injecting some new, fresh blood in the team. We may find ourselves in a strong position, if we get it right.
 
Adebesi said:
I think more patience is needed but I understand why it runs thin for many people, we are now half way through a second season of constantly telling each other we have to be patient and there is only so long even the most patient person can keep it up. But I think we need to keep the faith. I said the same last year but the difference now is at least our manager has a track record of delivering so we can have a greater level of confidence he will be able to do it again.
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I actually agree with you and I am willing to be more patient. He is a talented manager and I do like his personality.

I still feel that while we wait "for the magic to happen", he could demonstrate more creativity and flexibility than he has. He could adapt more to our club and squad to get the most out of it during that transitional period. Obviously our players lack some qualities to play his style of football - we can't change those players right away, so the style should change to suit what we have.
 
Blodssvik said:
Well his ''pragmatism'' and current trajectory for the team will lead to missing out on top four.
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You sound so certain.

You should divorce playing style from results. Quite confident we will get 3rd or 4th.

We all talk about us being poor, but what does that really say about the others if we are in top 4 now. If they can improve, why can't we?
 
Don't think he's been a success here and i honestly never really thought he would be. Always though people overdid that whole football genius thing when we were getting him in. In truth i didn't think things would be as bad as they look currently. He looks streets away from building a team with any substance and that's not because of the personnel he's brought in but rather how he's chosen to use them so far.
 
Blodssvik said:
Well his ''pragmatism'' and current trajectory for the team will lead to missing out on top four.
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We've taken 27 points out of a possible 36 in our last 12 Premier League games. The 9 we have dropped has been in our last 6 games but that's only one loss and a few draws. Hardly a "trajectory". We've lost one game in the last 3 months and faced some tough fixtures, not least Southampton and Spurs who we are competing for the Top 4 with.

We've got a much easier run for a few games while our rivals have all got some tough matches. We'll put some gap between us in the next couple of months.
 
Yeah collecting draws is not good enough with the 3 point system. Our performances have hardly been improving the last couple of months. We set up to make it difficult for opponents but barely create anything. That trajectory, if continued, will lead to more draws unless we are saved by individual brilliance.
 
03/04 mediocrity - we will continue to finish top 4 but won't have any real go at the title, which to a club like Manchester United is mediocre. LVG is not getting as much stick as he should right now despite spending 150 million and sticking to a formation that is endorsed by him and him alone - this is due to the abysmal season we had under David Moyes, hence fans just want to get back into the champions league, it is safe to say that if we continue to play like this next season, fans will be calling for his head.

I would much prefer sticking with LVG and a consistent finish in the Top 4 for the next 3 years allowing the board to thoroughly search for a Champion.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Don't think he's been a success here and i honestly never really thought he would be.
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After 6 months:
We are currently in 4th place.
We are still in the FA Cup.

I wouldn't say that he hasn't been a success.
I'd say he looks set on achieving the objective of 3rd place and is "doing well".

If you were hoping for a title win, this year, then we should've hired Mourinho (when he was available) or maybe Anchelotti. These guys are the only ones who could come close to guaranteeing immediate success. I'd also point out that even Mourinho didnt win the title last year (in his first year).

I'm not quite sure why people are so down-hearted. Be realistic.
 
sunama said:
After 6 months:
We are currently in 4th place.
We are still in the FA Cup.

I wouldn't say that he hasn't been a success.
I'd say he looks set on achieving the objective of 3rd place and is "doing well".

If you were hoping for a title win, this year, then we should've hired Mourinho (when he was available) or maybe Anchelotti. These guys are the only ones who could come close to guaranteeing immediate success. I'd also point out that even Mourinho didnt win the title last year (in his first year).

I'm not quite sure why people are so down-hearted. Be realistic.
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Mainly because we're in the era of tabloid sensationalism. You'll find people go to extremes in both ways on this forum. When we win a few games, people come out of the woodwork going through the upcoming fixture lists "If we just take 18 points from the next 18 and Chelsea drop 7 points in the same timeframe" etc etc.

On the other side of the coin, you have the people who will come out after a few bad results / performances.

There are some, then, who are in the happy medium. Like for instance, myself, @Pexbo who started the thread and may others. OK, we're not delighted with the way the team is currently playing. But we believe in Van Gaal and realise the job that was on his hands.
 
dirkey said:
Mainly because we're in the era of tabloid sensationalism. You'll find people go to extremes in both ways on this forum. When we win a few games, people come out of the woodwork going through the upcoming fixture lists "If we just take 18 points from the next 18 and Chelsea drop 7 points in the same timeframe" etc etc.

On the other side of the coin, you have the people who will come out after a few bad results / performances.

There are some, then, who are in the happy medium. Like for instance, myself, @Pexbo who started the thread and may others. OK, we're not delighted with the way the team is currently playing. But we believe in Van Gaal and realise the job that was on his hands.
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This. Only a complete numpty would not realise the job at hand that LvG has. Unfortunately it would seem there are a number of them on this forum.
 
I don't have any expectations of things improving dramatically in the remainder of this season. United have largely been poor, with dull, unimaginative football, and a system which fails to get the best out of key players, while exposing the shortcomings of others.

So far a number of plucky, slightly fortunate performances, and the relative poor form of our rivals, have kept us in a strong position for Champions League qualification. However in the last month the team appears to have regressed relative to the other contenders (across the last 6 games we've taken just 9 points, compared to Southampton 16, Liverpool 14, Arsenal & Spurs 13).

Top 4 this year still feels achievable, even though it will almost certainly be a huge struggle. I think somehow we'll just about scrape through, which should give the club a platform to launch another extensive squad overhaul in the summer, and thus bring a better standard of football (and a new system) next season.

4th this season, improved play and top 3 in Van Gaal's 2nd and 3rd seasons would be my prediction. I think the title will probably remain out of reach during his tenure.
 
The philosophy will hinder the full potential of any formation,at least for now. These players are still trying to work this out and some of them might never. That is the real fear;that we just have too many of these players currently. Even the 352 is not this bad.
 
sunama said:
After 6 months:
We are currently in 4th place.
We are still in the FA Cup.

I wouldn't say that he hasn't been a success.
I'd say he looks set on achieving the objective of 3rd place and is "doing well".

If you were hoping for a title win, this year, then we should've hired Mourinho (when he was available) or maybe Anchelotti. These guys are the only ones who could come close to guaranteeing immediate success. I'd also point out that even Mourinho didnt win the title last year (in his first year).

I'm not quite sure why people are so down-hearted. Be realistic.
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We are barely holding on to fourth place with a similar points total to moyes last season.
Have we played any team of substance in the FA cup?
Nope, but i was hoping to see the early steps of our next great team and quite frankly its been anything but that.
 
RooneyLegend said:
We are barely holding on to fourth place with a similar points total to moyes last season.
Have we played any team of substance in the FA cup?
Nope, but i was hoping to see the early steps of our next great team and quite frankly its been anything but that.
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Out of interest, before the season, if you had been told we'd finish 4th and have a run in the cup, would you have been happy? Not classifying what we've had as a run in the cup yet, just .. say we make the semi's.
 
I'd say we're in 4th place at the moment due to having better players than the opposition despite LvG's botch ups. With the squad at his disposal, we should expect to be competing at the top, not just hoping to finish in a European place. I also don't get this minimum 4th place obsession from fans. Qualifying for Europe is not to be accepted as success. It's only success in terms of financial returns for owners. We are football fans and should aspire/insist on being entertained with great football, and winning trophies should always be the teams aim.

This season's football reminds me of the short-lived Frank O'Farrrell tenure in terms of quality of football. I hope he gets booted if he doesn't change the type of football we are witnessing beyond this season.
 
Pexbo said:
We've taken 27 points out of a possible 36 in our last 12 Premier League games. The 9 we have dropped has been in our last 6 games but that's only one loss and a few draws. Hardly a "trajectory". We've lost one game in the last 3 months and faced some tough fixtures, not least Southampton and Spurs who we are competing for the Top 4 with.

We've got a much easier run for a few games while our rivals have all got some tough matches. We'll put some gap between us in the next couple of months.
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Why just go back 12 games, Pex? We've simply been awful to watch from an entertainment perspective. When talking about football being a result industry it's generally from an owners perspective.
 
Tomorrows match is going to be huge for LVG. If he continues with his negative tactics the crowd could turn on him.
 
Sultan said:
I'd say we're in 4th place at the moment due to having better players than the opposition despite LvG's botch ups. With the squad at his disposal, we should expect to be competing at the top, not just hoping to finish in a European place. I also don't get this minimum 4th place obsession from fans. Qualifying for Europe is not to be accepted as success. It's only success in terms of financial returns for owners. We are football fans and should aspire/insist on being entertained with great football, and winning trophies should always be the teams aim.

This season's football reminds me of the short-lived Frank O'Farrrell tenure in terms of quality of football. I hope he gets booted if he doesn't change the type of football we are witnessing beyond this season.
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Spot on! A great post mate!
 
Sultan said:
Why just go back 12 games, Pex? We've simply been awful to watch from an entertainment perspective. When talking about football being a result industry it's generally from an owners perspective.
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It was in reply to someone saying that our currenty trajectory will see us missing out on Top 4. I thought 3 months was a big enough sample size to suggest that our current trajectory does no such thing.

Its quite likely we could be 4 points off second by Monday.
 
Freak said:
You can easily see this happening. He sets up the team with negative tactics, the crowd become impatient and loud, the players start to panic and of course we then concede a goal.
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And then ofcourse an asteroid hits OT and everybody dies.
 
As many people seem to be saying, I'm not particularly happy with some of his decisions this season. But ultimately I feel he is making those decisions largely because he's not happy with weaknesses we have in our squad. I believe that once he gets a chance to strengthen some of those positions, we'll have a better idea of how he intends to move forward for the future. So this season just make the damn top 4. Next season I'll start focusing more on how he is getting those results.
 
Sultan said:
I'd say we're in 4th place at the moment due to having better players than the opposition despite LvG's botch ups. With the squad at his disposal, we should expect to be competing at the top, not just hoping to finish in a European place. I also don't get this minimum 4th place obsession from fans. Qualifying for Europe is not to be accepted as success. It's only success in terms of financial returns for owners. We are football fans and should aspire/insist on being entertained with great football, and winning trophies should always be the teams aim.

This season's football reminds me of the short-lived Frank O'Farrrell tenure in terms of quality of football. I hope he gets booted if he doesn't change the type of football we are witnessing beyond this season.
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Good post. At the moment I feel he is hiding behind the teams defensive issues and some fans are happy to accept that. Our football has been dire this season, 10 of our 22 games in the Premiership have ended with us scoring one goal or less, that's terrible by anybody's standards let alone a Club like Manchester United.
I've said it many many times that LVG has to start taking risks, defend from the front and play attacking football.
 
Sultan said:
I'd say we're in 4th place at the moment due to having better players than the opposition despite LvG's botch ups. With the squad at his disposal, we should expect to be competing at the top, not just hoping to finish in a European place. I also don't get this minimum 4th place obsession from fans. Qualifying for Europe is not to be accepted as success. It's only success in terms of financial returns for owners. We are football fans and should aspire/insist on being entertained with great football, and winning trophies should always be the teams aim.

This season's football reminds me of the short-lived Frank O'Farrrell tenure in terms of quality of football. I hope he gets booted if he doesn't change the type of football we are witnessing beyond this season.
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It's one step at a time. This season, get his feet under the table, get us back into the champions league. With that achieved, and a new found desire to write some big cheques, we can really go to town.

Chelsea under the great Mourinho didn't even get into the top 2 last year in his first season, so it's unrealistic to expect him to come in and challenge in his first year. Moyes left a lot of damage.
 
RooneyLegend said:
We are barely holding on to fourth place with a similar points total to moyes last season.
Have we played any team of substance in the FA cup?
Nope, but i was hoping to see the early steps of our next great team and quite frankly its been anything but that.
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You can't go off points, it's different context from one season to another.

What ISN'T different context, is Moyes had already seen top 4 disintegrate by now, whereas we're right amongst it and have been for a fair while.
 
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