American Cops Doing What They Do Best

Look at the poll results :eek:
~75% in favour with about 200,000 votes. Wtf.

That's absolutely insane. However it is the Torygraph. I bet it wouldn't be anywhere near that high if say the Guardian ran the same poll. I also really do not believe that is a fair representation of the UK's opinion or attitude towards guns and legalising them.

It does prove though how completely dangerous Farage and UKIP are. We can now add legalising handguns to the US style health service he wants the UK to have. Why can't he do us all a favour and just feck off to the US? He can enjoy both there, and can shoot himself whilst massaging his handgun then go and pay ridiculous amounts of money to get treated for his gunshot wound. Oh but he won't because then he would have become something he despises, an immigrant!
 
It's probably some of both, but there's absolutely no doubt that the route cause of the problem is everyone's favourite Amendment to the Constitution.

It's not a major factor in my opinion. Yes, there are a lot more guns in America, but the reason for pointless incidents between the police and civilians is the needless escalation of simple situations by police. The vast majority of crime responses do not require the use of non-lethal or lethal force, yet I could spend all day digging up articles where the police bring tanks to a fistfight, figuratively speaking. Like that scene in the Wire where a full SWAT team prepare to storm in and take Avon and Stringer, only to be thwarted by the simple strategy of knocking and announcing police presence by McNulty and Daniels.
 
It's not a major factor in my opinion. Yes, there are a lot more guns in America, but the reason for pointless incidents between the police and civilians is the needless escalation of simple situations by police. The vast majority of crime responses do not require the use of non-lethal or lethal force, yet I could spend all day digging up articles where the police bring tanks to a fistfight, figuratively speaking. Like that scene in the Wire where a full SWAT team prepare to storm in and take Avon and Stringer, only to be thwarted by the simple strategy of knocking and announcing police presence by McNulty and Daniels.

Don't they do that because they're terrified of being shot though? Or are they just really badly trained?
 
Don't they do that because they're terrified of being shot though? Or are they just really badly trained?

Stats and common sense indicate their paranoia is based on myth.

I cannot speak for other agencies, but the NYPD's firearm course is basic level. On average the firearm proficiency of a NYPD officer is much worse than an average American gun enthusiast who shoots at the gun range regularly. Their firearms also have a trigger pull of 12 lb, which drives down the accuracy.
 
That's absolutely insane. However it is the Torygraph. I bet it wouldn't be anywhere near that high if say the Guardian ran the same poll. I also really do not believe that is a fair representation of the UK's opinion or attitude towards guns and legalising them.

It does prove though how completely dangerous Farage and UKIP are. We can now add legalising handguns to the US style health service he wants the UK to have. Why can't he do us all a favour and just feck off to the US? He can enjoy both there, and can shoot himself whilst massaging his handgun then go and pay ridiculous amounts of money to get treated for his gunshot wound. Oh but he won't because then he would have become something he despises, an immigrant!



What’s scary is the popularity of his party is growing at a steady rate.
 
Stats and common sense indicate their paranoia is based on myth.

I cannot speak for other agencies, but the NYPD's firearm course is basic level. On average the firearm proficiency of a NYPD officer is much worse than an average American gun enthusiast who shoots at the gun range regularly. Their firearms also have a trigger pull of 12 lb, which drives down the accuracy.

Interesting that they would be judged by those metrics. When it comes to "proficiency" in using a firearm, the ability to hit a target should be nowhere near the most important issue IMO. It's their ability to handle situations without even drawing their gun which matter most of all.
 
Don't they do that because they're terrified of being shot though? Or are they just really badly trained?

Exactly, I don't think you can blame cops for being worried about getting shot when there are so many great people legally concealing firearms, never mind the non legal ones.

Stats and common sense indicate their paranoia is based on myth.

I cannot speak for other agencies, but the NYPD's firearm course is basic level. On average the firearm proficiency of a NYPD officer is much worse than an average American gun enthusiast who shoots at the gun range regularly. Their firearms also have a trigger pull of 12 lb, which drives down the accuracy.

What stats? Common sense would suggest they have a legitimate cause for concern.
 
Interesting that they would be judged by those metrics. When it comes to "proficiency" in using a firearm, the ability to hit a target should be nowhere near the most important issue IMO. It's their ability to handle situations without even drawing their gun which matter most of all.

Yeah, that's another matter entirely. Situation de-escalation isn't emphasized.
 
What stats? Common sense would suggest they have a legitimate cause for concern.

187s (cop homicides) have dropped significantly, and the occupation of a police officer is deemed more safe than more mundane jobs such as construction work, etc. I'll see if I can pull up some links.

Common sense indicates that the vast majority of citizens in the US don't engage in confrontations with police officers. Especially people of color. When I get pulled over, all sudden movements on my end cease, the key is on the dash, I ask for permission to slowly get my wallet/registration, and so on. That mantra is drilled into the psyche of the American urban young male.
 
187s (cop homicides) have dropped significantly, and the occupation of a police officer is deemed more safe than more mundane jobs such as construction work, etc. I'll see if I can pull up some links.

Common sense indicates that the vast majority of citizens in the US don't engage in confrontations with police officers. Especially people of color. When I get pulled over, all sudden movements on my end cease, the key is on the dash, I ask for permission to slowly get my wallet/registration, and so on. That mantra is drilled into the psyche of the American urban young male.
187 is just homicide, not cop homicide, isn't it? I'd be interested to see that research you mention.

As for the common sense bit, you're talking about the actions of people who are complying. Generally these people aren't the ones the police find themselves in confrontation with.

They'd also likely not have to behave like this to assure the police in the first place if guns weren't readily available to anyone who wants one.

It's the twitchy ones who run who are far less predicable, and these are the ones who feed the concern of being shot.

The underlying issue is the ease at which firearms are available to the American public. Take that away and everyone would be far less paranoid, and as an added bonus you wouldn't need to arm the general police population.
 
187 is just homicide, not cop homicide, isn't it? I'd be interested to see that research you mention.

As for the common sense bit, you're talking about the actions of people who are complying. Generally these people aren't the ones the police find themselves in confrontation with.

They'd also likely not have to behave like this to assure the police in the first place if guns weren't readily available to anyone who wants one.

It's the twitchy ones who run who are far less predicable, and these are the ones who feed the concern of being shot.

The underlying issue is the ease at which firearms are available to the American public. Take that away and everyone would be far less paranoid, and as an added bonus you wouldn't need to arm the general police population.

Scratch that 187 reference from my post.

Here's a reference for starters. http://riderrants.blogspot.com/2014/01/mortality-risk-for-police-and.html

I think that even allowing for the amount of guns in public, there is an abject lack of respect for human life from US police in general, as described in the new yorker article. There is this disturbing mentality they have of "me against the world" which filters down to their interactions with civilians on the street. The majority of cops aren't aggressive line-steppers, but their refusal to hold out of line cops to a higher standard condemns them in the end. They need to be armed, absolutely, but they also need to be trained properly, to not fear and demonize citizens on first sight, and utilize lethal force as an ultimate last resort (they don't). They serve the public after all.
 
Scratch that 187 reference from my post.

Here's a reference for starters. http://riderrants.blogspot.com/2014/01/mortality-risk-for-police-and.html

I think that even allowing for the amount of guns in public, there is an abject lack of respect for human life from US police in general, as described in the new yorker article. There is this disturbing mentality they have of "me against the world" which filters down to their interactions with civilians on the street. The majority of cops aren't aggressive line-steppers, but their refusal to hold out of line cops to a higher standard condemns them in the end. They need to be armed, absolutely, but they also need to be trained properly, to not fear and demonize citizens on first sight, and utilize lethal force as an ultimate last resort (they don't). They serve the public after all.
Quickly skimming that article a few things jump out:

One factor improving cop mortality rates is that there's been a major increase in the wearing of bulletproof vests in just the last 4 years -- which also cut down on other injuries.

Cops can be shot without dying, they're still going to fear actually getting shot, it's not like failing to die makes it safe!

I should add that police mortality rate varies DRAMATICALLY by state. Generally speaking, southern and some rural states are significantly more dangerous for cops than California, which has a low mortality rate by national standards.

This goes back to my 'one nation vs 50 States' point earlier, and I'd wager that the fluctuations are in line with gun crime stats.

As for the bold at the end of your post, there's absolutely no arguments there.
 
Its taken a couple of hundred years but the US has finally developed a complete Island mentality. The majority of Americans have no idea what life or values are like beyond their own nation.

God bless america and the rest are inferior and out to get us. We are entitled to denfend ourselves, against something - we don't know what - so we'll arm ourselves to the teeth, shoot first and ask questions later.

That's a dangerous receipe particularly when you throw racial and social inequality into the pot.
We have Mexico which thousands of people crossing to this side (not only Mexicans, but from Honduras, Colombia, etc and a great amount of them are criminals, UK wouldn't survive a year in a situation like ours if they don't have their police force armed. Anyway Europe is changing and fast with all this terrorism, Spain, France, Belgium, Norway and Denmark.
 
We have Mexico which thousands of people crossing to this side (not only Mexicans, but from Honduras, Colombia, etc and a great amount of them are criminals, UK wouldn't survive a year in a situation like ours if they don't have their police force armed. Anyway Europe is changing and fast with all this terrorism, Spain, France, Belgium, Norway and Denmark.

Can you give me any links or proof that a "great amount" of these Mexicans, Hondurans and Colombians are criminals. Or did you pull that out of some right winger's ass.
 
Can you give me any links or proof that a "great amount" of these Mexicans, Hondurans and Colombians are criminals. Or did you pull that out of some right winger's ass.
They broke the law crossing the border! Damn dirty criminals, coming over here, taking our jobs, sending their kids to our schools, paying taxes we want to avoid. Makes you sick.
 
Can you give me any links or proof that a "great amount" of these Mexicans, Hondurans and Colombians are criminals. Or did you pull that out of some right winger's ass.

MS13 have been crossing for years, but I'd guess the percentage of criminals (including gang members not convicted previously) crossing the border is small.
 
This is god awful.



Also another case of paranoid trigger happy cop who luckily didn't kill the guy.


The first one is a disgrace. To shoot a man while restrained like that is shocking.

And the second video, the police officers involved in that should be in prison too. They ask him for his license then shoot him when he goes to get it. Crazy.
 
Must be cultural then. Perhaps US and UK PDs should do the exchange program like our military does. Would be interesting to see how US police return to the US with a different perspective, and for UK police to see just how wild wild west the US is.
It really would.
 
187s (cop homicides) have dropped significantly, and the occupation of a police officer is deemed more safe than more mundane jobs such as construction work, etc. I'll see if I can pull up some links.

Common sense indicates that the vast majority of citizens in the US don't engage in confrontations with police officers. Especially people of color. When I get pulled over, all sudden movements on my end cease, the key is on the dash, I ask for permission to slowly get my wallet/registration, and so on. That mantra is drilled into the psyche of the American urban young male.
Last year the police force was assaulted 51k times which 15k were injured, they aren't paranoid and been a police officer in US is not for everybody and they should stop with the stupid tests to join them, should be more mental and stress tests to show how they would act. - then would be no cops anymore :lol:
 
Can you give me any links or proof that a "great amount" of these Mexicans, Hondurans and Colombians are criminals. Or did you pull that out of some right winger's ass.
I read a few years ago in a newspaper but you can see this link about the gangs with roots in Central America
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-13
 
As I said in a previous post, although the Police in America have a tough job they are far from the only country who have had to Police in such circumstances.
Some interesting tweets in here.
RUC (old Police service in Northern Ireland ) diary, tweets from an RUC Officers diary 1980-2000
https://mobile.twitter.com/rucdiary
 
I read a few years ago in a newspaper but you can see this link about the gangs with roots in Central America
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-13

Of course there are always some criminals, mostly from the result of the US' insane drug war. But why is that you guys never mention the vast majority who come over to work their asses off for crap pay and no benefits nor labor protection in all the shit jobs, and sustain your agriculture. They pay loads of taxes as well. For you guys its always the magnification of the small criminal element which whips up some much hate for the 90 percent working their asses off and keeping your prices down. How you 'Christians' love to hate.
 
Here are the facts:

In August 2013, Geer's common law wife, who was breaking up with him and moving out, called police to report he was angrily throwing her possessions onto his front lawn. Asked whether Geer had weapons, the woman answered yes, but they were legally owned and secured. No, he hadn't been drinking.

John Geer, 46, was fatally shot by police in August 2013 in an unusual confrontation for which no charges have been laid. His family has launched a suit for wrongful death. Two squad cars — four officers — initially responded. Geer, on seeing them, retreated into his home, refusing to answer questions.

A few minutes later, Officer Rodney Barnes, a trained police negotiator, arrived, and as the four other policemen stood close behind him with weapons drawn, he began trying to coax John Geer out onto the porch. Barnes would later recall that Geer was polite, but reluctant to leave his home, saying repeatedly he was frightened of being killed.

He said "I don't want anybody to get hurt," the negotiator told investigators a few months later. "I don't want to get shot."
'I know I can get shot'

Barnes asked Geer if he owned a pistol. Geer said yes, and fetched it. He held it up, holstered, for Barnes to see and set it aside, raising his hands again. He offered to let Barnes come into the house and retrieve the weapon. He asked for permission to scratch his nose, Barnes said, and did it slowly, then raised his hands again. He asked to reach into his pocket for his phone; Barnes asked him not to, and he obeyed.

"He said 'I know if I reach down or drop my hands I can get shot," Barnes told detectives later. "I said, hey, nobody's going to shoot you…"

But Geer pointed to one nearby officer in particular: Adam Torres, who kept raising his Sig Sauer pistol from the "ready" position (pointed at Geer's legs) to aim at Geer's chest.

Please ask him not to point his gun at me, Geer begged Barnes. Geer even offered to come out and be handcuffed voluntarily if Torres and the other patrolmen would agree to move "way back."

Then he asked to scratch his nose again. Barnes consented. And Torres fired.

Geer, grabbing his wound, screamed in pain and stepped back, slamming his door.

"And I'm like, who the feck shot?" Barnes told detectives later. "I kinda got a little pissed."

Torres acknowledged it had been him, and began muttering how he was sorry, and that his wrist was hurting. Then, unbidden, he told Barnes how he'd had a fight over the phone with his wife just before arriving on the scene.

Does he regret having shot Geer? "I don't feel sorry for shooting the guy at all."

In Fairfax, Va., a different, no-less-scary police shooting

Guy is still on the force after he killed an unarmed man, at his own home, who was cooperating with police instructions and 4 police + 2 other witnesses confirming the victim did nothing wrong. Also took a year and a half to even get the officer named. Mental.
 
Too bad Zuley's techniques weren't used on bankers to get to the bottom of all their enormous financial crimes against society, ha ha.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/18/american-police-brutality-chicago-guantanamo

Bad lieutenant: American police brutality, exported from Chicago to Guantánamo


When the Chicago detective Richard Zuley arrived at Guantánamo Bay late in 2002, US military commanders touted him as the hero they had been looking for.

Here was a Navy reserve lieutenant who had spent the last 25 years as a distinguished detective on the mean streets of Chicago, closing case after case – often due to his knack for getting confessions.

But while Zuley’s brutal interrogation techniques – prolonged shackling, family threats, demands on suspects to implicate themselves and others – would get supercharged at Guantánamo for the war on terrorism, a Guardian investigation has uncovered that Zuley used similar tactics for years, behind closed police-station doors, on Chicago’s poor and non-white citizens. Multiple people in prison in Illinois insist they have been wrongly convicted on the basis of coerced confessions extracted by Zuley and his colleagues.

The Guardian examined thousands of court documents from Chicago and interviewed two dozen people with experience at Guantánamo and in the Chicago criminal-justice system. The results of its investigation suggests a continuum between Guantánamo interrogation rooms and Chicago police precincts. Zuley’s detective work, particularly when visited on Chicago’s minority communities, contains a dark foreshadowing of the United States’ post-9/11 descent into torture.

Allegations stemming from interviews and court documents, concerning five Chicago suspects, suggest Zuley and his colleagues shackled suspects to walls for extended periods, threatened their family members, and perhaps even planted evidence on them. The point was to yield confessions, even while ignoring potentially exculpatory evidence.

Several of those techniques bear similarities to those used by Zuley when he took over the interrogation of Mohamedou Ould Slahi at Guantánamo, described in official government reports and a best-selling memoir serialised last month by the Guardian as one of the most brutal ever conducted at the US wartime prison . . . (cont)

_________________________________________________________________________


I'm sure this guy had learned his trade well from this other, decorated, beloved Chicago top cop, John Burge, who plied his torturing minorities trade from the 70s to the 90s. The guy walked after 4 years with a full $4,000 a year pension, after costing the city of Chicago more than 120 million dollars in legal defences. Imagine what American cops have been getting away with for the past 100 years in their dealings with minorities. Especially in the south

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/02/jon-burge-released_n_5923784.html
 
Guy is still on the force after he killed an unarmed man, at his own home, who was cooperating with police instructions and 4 police + 2 other witnesses confirming the victim did nothing wrong. Also took a year and a half to even get the officer named. Mental.
Guy should be in jail for life. Disgusting.
 
Guy is still on the force after he killed an unarmed man, at his own home, who was cooperating with police instructions and 4 police + 2 other witnesses confirming the victim did nothing wrong. Also took a year and a half to even get the officer named. Mental.

Jesus.
 
They are pretty much a gang at this point. That Geer story is extremely chilling. Until every bullet shot out of a cops gun is documented and available to the public, we will never know how bad the situation actually is. The fact that the cops are actively against basic record-keeping is very telling. It's almost as if they enjoy being accountable to nobody but themselves.
 
This is true.

Not true.

An Irish cop (or Gardai as they're known) once challenged 13 year old me and my mate to "a scrap" because we called him a fat lesbian. He actually took off his jacket and squared up to us. Bout 6'4, 300lbs of lard. Thankfully his colleague calmed him down. I'll never forget that. :lol:

A true protector of peace.
 
The whole american criminal justice system sets the tone for how police will react to certain situations. Combined with institutionalised inequality. Basically dehumanising people.
 
Not true.

An Irish cop (or Gardai as they're known) once challenged 13 year old me and my mate to "a scrap" because we called him a fat lesbian. He actually took off his jacket and squared up to us. Bout 6'4, 300lbs of lard. Thankfully his colleague calmed him down. I'll never forget that. :lol:

A true protector of peace.

Had that happened where I come from, you'd have gotten a couple of slaps and sent back home crying. No one would have bothered about that anymore.