The overwhelming sentiment I've noticed (and felt myself numerous times) is American cops were often the kids picked on, bullied, and outcast while growing up. Becoming a cop gave them the power they never had in their youth.
American Cops Doing What They Do Best
- Thread starter DatIrishFella
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
There is a significant issue, probably in many countries (though I wouldn't know much beyond the UK and US), where anti-terror legislation and tactics become used for incidents that aren't remotely to do with terrorism.
The last few paragraphs make that same point.
It comes down to power imo. When you hand power over to people they will inevitably use it for their own benefit, which is accountability and openness especially from the government is so critical. American cops are accountable to nobody pretty much. The public should be outraged and honestly I'm surprised there aren't more riots.
It comes down to power imo. When you hand power over to people they will inevitably use it for their own benefit, which is accountability and openness especially from the government is so critical. American cops are accountable to nobody pretty much. The public should be outraged and honestly I'm surprised there aren't more riots.
I am going to play devils advocate here and show the other side. I can find and post limitless videos of US Police Officers being murdered just by browsing YouTube and other such sites. Here are a couple below just from routine traffic stops.
Here is an interesting video of a well renowned activist who has openly criticised the US Police taking part in a training exercise with officers. Very interesting result.
In my own opinion (from the UK) I find it bizarre that following a drunken fight two average men (the reporter and activist) would shoot dead a man that approached them aggressively. I deal with that kind of thing all of the time and would simply get hands on and take the suspect down or use a less lethal option such as baton, incapacitant spray or taser.
I see the issue you have in the United States as being not the cops, criminals or whoever else but the mentality of the people as a whole. Everyone, including the cops, grow up around firearms and use them from an early age. It is ingrained into them as such and becomes a cultural norm. Everyone is comfortable around them and everyone is comfortable firing them. There lies the problem and this is why it happens on both sides far too easily. Take away the gun and take away the problem or at the very least reduce it over time.
Simple really.
Here is an interesting video of a well renowned activist who has openly criticised the US Police taking part in a training exercise with officers. Very interesting result.
In my own opinion (from the UK) I find it bizarre that following a drunken fight two average men (the reporter and activist) would shoot dead a man that approached them aggressively. I deal with that kind of thing all of the time and would simply get hands on and take the suspect down or use a less lethal option such as baton, incapacitant spray or taser.
I see the issue you have in the United States as being not the cops, criminals or whoever else but the mentality of the people as a whole. Everyone, including the cops, grow up around firearms and use them from an early age. It is ingrained into them as such and becomes a cultural norm. Everyone is comfortable around them and everyone is comfortable firing them. There lies the problem and this is why it happens on both sides far too easily. Take away the gun and take away the problem or at the very least reduce it over time.
Simple really.
Well said. But this has been said ad nauseam in this thread and many other threads, especially the gun control thread. You will always hit a barrier (not so much here on the caf) when gun advocates start replying. The 2nd amendment is just quoted to counter any argument not matter how ridiculous the use is. It's basically treated as a religion, worshipped by many and despised by others, but because it was written and included in such an important document, criticism of it is blasphemous and many would think it was carved in stone with blood from innocent virgins. Basically it is their absolute right and the only way you can get them to relinquish their guns is by prying them from their dead hands.
However, I feel times are changing, just not fast enough. It will be at least another generation or two before it finally sinks in. Even then it wont be easy. All the time the NRA have supporters and donors they can counter any logical or rational or humane argument and will always find willing listeners. When you have people openly saying the way to combat school shootings is by arming teachers and having MORE guns, you know you are dealing with insanity.
I guess this belongs here....
What a crazy world we live in.
What a crazy world we live in.
Thank feck I don't live in America.
Damn!
Cold blooded murder, again?! Wtf is wrong with these cnuts
The LAPD has claimed that they attempted to use a taser to disable the an, although there is no mention of such in the BBC's description of events in the video.
Considering the number of officers attending the scene i would question how it got to the point where he could gain access to a gun in the first place, particularly with his medical history.
Perhaps they could do with some lessons from the French.
Jesus christ that's horrific. Trigger happy nutjobs. So many of them seem to have no regard for human life, which is feckin terrifying.
Jesus Christ, the beating they were giving him was already way OTT but then out come the guns.
Horrendous.
The police in that incident are apparently claiming he was grabbing onto one of their pistols. Which does - I guess - pose a potential lethal threat. But surely that's inevitable when every cop on the streets walks around with a handgun on their belt?
That's the elephant in the room. In a society where the availability of guns has got to a point where every single beat cop in the country carries a gun with them everywhere they go it's inevitable that the cops will end up killing people during scuffles where the use of lethal force should never even have been considered.
That's the elephant in the room. In a society where the availability of guns has got to a point where every single beat cop in the country carries a gun with them everywhere they go it's inevitable that the cops will end up killing people during scuffles where the use of lethal force should never even have been considered.
I wonder if they really think anyone is going to believe that? Look at the position the bloke is in, I doubt he even knew where his own hands were. The fact that it took half a dozen of them to man handle him says it all. They were just looking for an excuse. Fact is this wouldn't happen in any other country, and it's not like the rest of the world is devoid of troublemakers. The police seem hellbent on alienating themselves from the rest of society over there.
Why would they be looking for an excuse to execute him?
To be fair, the sound immediately before the shooting makes it looks like they were very suddenly startled by something, you can even hear them shout "drop the gun" or something like that. I can't really blame them for being trigger happy when someone reaches for their gun, if that's what happened above. In fact, I think reaching for a gun in any circumstances in front of a cop, in the USA, should be akin to suicide.
Statistics alone show how dangerous the job is, and the dozens, dozens and dozens of youtube videos like the ones @TheReligion posted, give you a very grim picture of how quickly and suddenly these things start and how quickly these things are over. Before I started watching shit like this I really didn't realize how quickly things change from life and calm to panic and death, we're all too used to watching dramatic slow representations of events in movies.
It's a messed up country in so many way. Cops die like in the videos above because guns are everywhere, and because many of those soon-to-be murderers are probably on the verge of some ridiculously long prison sentence for drug possession or something like that.
I don't sympathize with trigger-happy cops, but then I don't sympathize with the mentality of the country as a whole, and I don't think one can analyze their actions without that context.
Im sort of glad this thread exits. I thought i was paranoid but it seems there are more people like me.
There is a fb page called police the police. They pretty much track all cases of.police wrong doing.
There is a fb page called police the police. They pretty much track all cases of.police wrong doing.
If 12 police officers can't restrain a man without using guns, then they all need to be docked a months pay for being useless and incompetent. The man was on the floor. How did he reach for a firearm? Even in this gun saturated environments there are a lot of officers who act responsibly, it is no excuse.
If they had no guns, what would they have done? I'm absolutely positive that the man could have been restrained and arrested without lethal force.
Well, they weren't using firearms until he reached for one of theirs, were they (assuming he did, which I'm not sure)?
I'm almost always in the side of the victims in these situations, but if there's a scenario where I understand them using deadly force is one where something like this happens.
As for them being useless and incompetent, well... I didn't make any comments to that, I was replying to a comment suggesting that it was an execution. Quite different being incompetent or a murderer, you'd be asking for a lot more than docking a months pay if you look at that scenario as an execution. The mistake happened before they shot the man, not during it (again, assuming he did reach for their gun).
I'm not sure either. But I struggle to understand how that is justification for shooting him in the back, seeing he was on the floor, with his arms being pinned down.
Deadly force should be used as a last threat and resort only. Only when there is imminent threat to other lives. It should be off the table for any other incident. A homeless man being pinned down to the ground, "reaching for a gun" is not an imminent threat.
I hate incidents like this, because cops do a lot of great work generally, and a few idiots screw up their public reputation.
If he somehow got to the gun he's obviously an imminent threat. On the ground, on the sky, homeless or filthy rich.
My opinion is all based in that hypothetical. That that guy had a gun. The video is not clear at all, and it doesn't look like an execution. There's definitely something that startled them when they were wrestling.
I dont think american cops look forward to executing people, but they certainly have no problems with it for the littlest reasons. Such as failing to comply in time, or not showing your hands quick enough during a traffic stop, etc. Then you add race and social class into the mix, where cops have already judged you in their mind based on your appearance, I can see why they are so trigger happy.
He shouldn't be any threat when there are that many people pinning him down and tasering him too. Even if he managed to touch an officer's gun, he still isn't posing enough threat. If he managed to somehow purposely get hold of the gun in all of that, whilst being restrained by all those people, then maybe they need to look at their practices and actually do a better job.
I can understand cops being trigger happy when someone is stood away from them, clearly holding a gun. But they're quite happy to shoot someone multiple times without seeing weapons/while they're being restrained the floor/while people are running away but posing no current threat etc. etc.
That is horrific. Why couldn't they just shoot his legs/feet to get him on the ground then move in? That's practically execution.
Them shooting 45 rounds in to the guy to me says that they all want a bit of the action.
If this guy is a risk why have that many officers there pointing guns at him 'risking their life' when they could deal with it with about four of them, quite easily.
Its almost guilt-free (to an idiot), because 'hey, there were ten other guys there shooting too'. They obviously just want to get involved so they can all pat each other on the back afterwards.
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That's a gang mentality right there, all for one.......
http://news.yahoo.com/video-shows-los-angeles-police-shooting-homeless-man-060031475.html
Homeless man suspected of robbery, six of the pigs couldn't subdue him so they executed him. Absolute scum of the earth.
Homeless man suspected of robbery, six of the pigs couldn't subdue him so they executed him. Absolute scum of the earth.
I just cant understand a scenario where 4 cops are restraining a man, who has been tasered, and they decide that he needs to be shot 5(?) times at point blank range.
That's just crazy... 45 fecking shots when one or two would do from just one of them? Complete overkill.
Not saying that use of lethal force in that video was justified - it clearly wasn't - but once a decision is taken to shoot then cops won't be trained to aim for limbs or try to shoot someone as few times as possible. They'll have been told to aim for the torso and keep shooting until they're absolutely positive there's no longer a threat. Really only happens in movies that a cop would "wing" a suspect to disarm him.
What statistics are those?
Whatever happened to using canines to subdue the perp?
FFS, have one K9 unit report and sick the dog on 'em.
Edit: And there is a K9 in the video yet the police never releases the dog. That would likely have ended the incident without shots fired.
FFS, have one K9 unit report and sick the dog on 'em.
Edit: And there is a K9 in the video yet the police never releases the dog. That would likely have ended the incident without shots fired.
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I've thought a lot about how to type this without sounding incredibly callous, but I think it's going to anyway.
This is a country who know they have a ridiculous gun problem.
It's a country that has been presented with clear historical examples of actions undertaken by other countries when faced with such a problem.
They refuse to take measures to fix it. 50% of them refuse to accept it's an issue.
They actively scorn and belittle the advice of people from countries who have confronted gun problems.
They will understand eventually. One day they will look back with regret and shame.
In the meantime, I struggle to work up too much distress about it. There are far worse things happening around the world, more deserving of my care.
In purely clinical terms, every gun carrier killed by another gun carrier in America, simply strengthens the evolutionary herd.
This is a country who know they have a ridiculous gun problem.
It's a country that has been presented with clear historical examples of actions undertaken by other countries when faced with such a problem.
They refuse to take measures to fix it. 50% of them refuse to accept it's an issue.
They actively scorn and belittle the advice of people from countries who have confronted gun problems.
They will understand eventually. One day they will look back with regret and shame.
In the meantime, I struggle to work up too much distress about it. There are far worse things happening around the world, more deserving of my care.
In purely clinical terms, every gun carrier killed by another gun carrier in America, simply strengthens the evolutionary herd.
Well you gave it a big build up, and I think you excelled, diarm.
There is no quick fix though. Even the Americans who recognize something needs to be done struggle to implement meaningful change. It's also a very unique mindset that has developed in the culture which is extremely difficult to change/get rid of.
As Jim Jefferies said... the other side have guns.
I don't really understand how any right minded person could raise children in that country.
Amazing but kind of stupid. If he'd hit an artery your man is dead anyway. And he might have just been posturing. French cops be crazy.
Still, nice the way he reassures your man's wife at the end. An American copper would probably have tazered her for being noisy.