Then it won't really be Mata's problem because the No. 8 will have the responsibility of moving up and down with the #6 sitting. If Mata comes too deep then the striker is isolated, we brought him in for what he can do in and around the box and now we finally have a midfield strong enough to allow him to do just that.
Juan Mata - Shall he be our #10?
- Thread starter Cina
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He should be over Depay at the very least. It's just weird that Mata whose best position is as a #10 and Depay who has played mostly out wide coming in and the two are flip flopped by LVG so far. Mata will also thrive with speed in front of him. Ok Rooney is not the fastest but, quite a bit faster than Falcao/RVP and with Shaw, Darmian (Valencia), Depay, Young (maybe Pedro) and players like Herrera from midfield running beyond him, he would be fantastic. But, LVG ... he has some method to this obvious maddness.
Absolutely not. Been saying since we signed him that he should play on the right and unsurprisingly his best form has come since Van Gaal shifted him there. Right wing or the bench. Seen nothing from him to justify playing him at #10.
Or we can play two midfielders ahead of #6, each of them supporting the attack of Rooney + two wide forwards who can tuck inside. I would rather play this way than 4-2-3-1 in which wingers stay out wide.
Couldn't agree more Cina. we keep wasting talented no.10's, just go 4231, mata as the 10 behind rooney. Schneiderlin + scweinsteger/hererra as the base depay + other on the wing and feck shit up.
Work rate and defensive contribution, I can agree with.
But not with end product. In fact, his production is his strongest element of his game. He is not Silva who dictates the tempo, or Hazard who runs past players, or a Sanchez who will do the x-factor, but Mata gets goals and assists.
11/12 (Chelsea, 40(6) apps) - 8 goals, 16 assists
12/13 (Chelsea, 41(8) apps) - 16 goals, 20 assists
13/14 (Man Utd, 14(1) apps, in a generally poorly performing team) - 6 goals, 4 assists
14/15 (Man Utd, 27(6) apps, right wing) - 9 goals, 4 assists.
Granted his performance levels have decreased but that is a reflection of the way we use him. In his central AM position that he played for Chelsea, he was extremely productive. When you consider how we've used him and the number of games compared to the below, it clearly hows he is productive.
David Silva:
10/11 (City, 30(5) apps) - 4 goals, 7 assists
11/12 (City, 39(3) apps) - 8 goals, 17 assists
12/13 (City, 32(3) apps) - 4 goals, 8 assists
13/14 (City, 31(2) apps) - 8 goals, 10 assists
14/15 (City, 37(1) apps) - 12 goals, 8 assists
Eden Hazard (only including Chelsea years):
12/13 (Chelsea, 40(7) apps) - 10 goals, 14 assists
13/14 (Chelsea, 40(4) apps) - 16 goals, 7 assists
14/15 (Chelsea, 45 apps) - 17 goals, 11 assists
Coutinho:
13/14 (Liverpool, 28(5) apps) - 5 goals, 7 assists
14/15 (Liverpool, 36(5) apps) - 5 goals, 5 assists
Sanchez:
14/15 (Arsenal, 41(1) apps) - 19 goals, 9 assists
The statistics don't paint the full picture, but what they do show is Juan Mata is EXTREMELY productive as an AMC/10.
I feel like Mata at #10 probably rules out Herrera at #8 for important matches. You'd need someone less forward thinking, and more of a tempo controller to sit behind alongside a defensive counterpart like Schneiderlin or proper holder e.g. Carrick.
He's not quick either
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...chester-united-fastest-player-in-2014-15.aspx
You sure?
I think that is probably true, but for the big games I don't mind playing Mata on the wing.
We have a lot of games this season, and a lot of players will get game time.
But against weaker opposition, especially at home, there is no reason why we can't have a midfield 3 of Mata at 10, Herrera at 8, and Carrick/Schweini/Schneiderlin in a holding role.
In the big games, we can drop Herrera, and play 2 of Carrick/Schweini/Schneiderlin.
For the record, Rooney is nowhere near as slow as everyone makes out. But top speed in his position is not as important as balance, agility and acceleration, which is where I would assume he would fall short against other comparable players.
On the counter though, when there is open space, absolutely Rooney is not slow and those who say he is obviously don't watch properly. He isn't the most "beautiful" sprinter but he moves pretty damn fast.
That's his biggest problem with us and why he doesn't get the gig in the middle, imo.
He's an exceptional supporting forward, but he lacks at quite a few key attributes of a typical #10 and lacks the explosiveness and creativity from that position that LVG is a stickler for.
Think he'd need an injury crisis to get a proper shot there.
Rooney isn’t slow, the problem is that he rarely does any runs, and secondly, we don’t play that way to utilize his speed. Agility/balance is more important for a striker than pure pace in van Gaal system IMO. Anyway, I agree it won’t work with Mata.
I agree with that, to be fair. He isn't the Silva type of no.10. But having said that, he is very effective at 10 that you have to consider whether it is worth playing him there and getting creativity elsewhere i.e. from the wings or further back in midfield.
The problem for him is that 1) LVG doesn't like a no.10 of his style, and 2) i'm not sure we have that creativity from the wing.
I personally would rather see him at 10 though.
No, not for me, he's liable to go missing in action when we don't have the ball, when he's on the right side it's far less noticeable when he drifts out of the game, centrally it hurts us too much.
100% his the nail on the head here, really.
If Mata and Rooney is to work our play must become quicker and be more counter attacking in nature. Not this plodding we currently work with.
I think him playing on the wing largely depends on what sort of winger we're wanting him to be. He's not a Valencia-type player who relies on pace and crossing, so he'll struggle if we're wanting him to be doing that regularly, and we won't get the best out of him. If LVG is happy to allow him plenty of freedom though, and for him to drift in when on the ball, he's a lot more likely to perform.
I'm not entirely against him being our number 10 either, though. He's not the hardest worker as such and is a lot more unlikely to drop back, but if we've got someone like Herrera who works hard while contributing to attacking play as well, I don't think it'd be too much of a problem for Mata to play in a number 10 role, since he's got the ability to dictate our attacking play and contribute an impressive number of assists/goals.
Absolutely.
Give him a central role with freedom and he would flourish. Hopefully LvG will try it at least.
Give him a central role with freedom and he would flourish. Hopefully LvG will try it at least.
Yep. Mata is a more direct player and an excellent passer, not a playmaker like Silva. He needs pace and movement from the forward players in order to be more effective.
We did that already. It didn't work - he barely got involved and games would pass him by. His best form with us has come when moved out wide.
I would definitely like to see him at number 10 again, think he is a bit wasted out wide.
Love Mata, but just feel he is lacking something. I would rather play Herrera as the #10 if we play that system. Saw Herrera play there for his previous club and he looked really good in that position.
My exact same sentiments. I'm surprised at how forgetful the CAF is. Suddenly, Juan is an okay player to have while Di Maria is a world class attacker. I believe Mata to be a world class number 10. Playing him on the wing is not really his position.
Did you see Mata play number 10 for his previous club? Herrera doesn't come close to the quality Juan Mata has creatively.
I think we're building a style that suits him now, and this season he'll really shine.
That 3-5-2 shite in theory should've worked for him, but there were 10 other confused heads out there so I'm happy to disregard that. The way he plays from the right has been effective, but naturally he drifts to the centre so I do believe he can play in behind Rooney if LvG is going that way.
He looked good in pre-season. And I think he'll benefit from the likes of Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger in particular, because we've got players who know how to keep the ball under pressure now.
That 3-5-2 shite in theory should've worked for him, but there were 10 other confused heads out there so I'm happy to disregard that. The way he plays from the right has been effective, but naturally he drifts to the centre so I do believe he can play in behind Rooney if LvG is going that way.
He looked good in pre-season. And I think he'll benefit from the likes of Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger in particular, because we've got players who know how to keep the ball under pressure now.
Nope, I feel exactly the same way. Some of LVG's decisions are quite puzzling/borderline infuriating.
I like his position on the right flank, always have, and he did well at Chelsea there too.
With Depay central they can swap around when Mata drifts inside. Got a lot of potential there and could cause teams problems.
With Depay central they can swap around when Mata drifts inside. Got a lot of potential there and could cause teams problems.
Watched him at Chelsea, his best work was from the wide area. Watched him for United and he seems lost out there as a #10 chasing shadows.
Absolutely his bance and agility particularly with a ball aren't the quickest but he's still bloody fast.
I remember the game away at Everton last season where he blitzed past everyone from the final third and got back into defence quicker than pretty much everyone else while Mirallas was on the ball. He's lightening quick.
He just can't sustain that speed all match, but of course he shouldn't have to, just in the moments of quick passing and counter attacking.
If pre season is anything to go by, we are playing our best winger as a 10 and our best 10 as a winger. Seems mad to me.
Memphis' best traits are pace, dribbling. and strength, which are much more crucial out wide than in the middle. Memphis' pace may be useful through the middle on the counter, but we don't play a system remotely close to counter attacking football, so it seems a little wasteful of what he can do for us. Mata's creativity as a 10 in a possession set up would be great, especially with two quick and hard working players like Memphis, Young, or possibly Pedro flanking Mata.
If not Mata, then Herrera, or even Fellaini or Pereira. But not a winger.
Play your best players in their best positions.
Memphis' best traits are pace, dribbling. and strength, which are much more crucial out wide than in the middle. Memphis' pace may be useful through the middle on the counter, but we don't play a system remotely close to counter attacking football, so it seems a little wasteful of what he can do for us. Mata's creativity as a 10 in a possession set up would be great, especially with two quick and hard working players like Memphis, Young, or possibly Pedro flanking Mata.
If not Mata, then Herrera, or even Fellaini or Pereira. But not a winger.
Play your best players in their best positions.
Totally agree. Mata on the 10 with Depay left and Pedro if bought right. Everybody playing on his best Position. Herrera and Schneiderlin behind Mata with Schweini, Carrick and Fellaini rotating in if necessary.
Agree with Mata for #10. Especially now with the midfielders we have, it makes more sense than ever to play him there, since we now have more protection in midfield. Mata doesn't have the strength but he certainly has the touch, passing skill, and vision to play as a #10. His weaknesses in defending can be compensated by our CMs.
I seriously doubt that. IMO there is nothing between them in terms of creativity. alright give me your best stats
Only problem is I don’t think van Gaal rates him in central position, if we take preseason seriously that is.
I thought he struggled against Barca and PSG. IMO he plays his best football as a wide attacker on the right in 4-3-3, where he has the possibility to come inside. He shouldn’t be playing out wide in 4-2-3-1 at all.
It's logical that he should be our No. 10, so of course he shouldn't play there! #LVGLOGIC
Don't see why not. Find it weird that people who (I assume) saw how good he was as a #10 for Chelsea suddenly think he can't play there. Put it this way, if SAF was here we'd be winning the league with Mata as a #10.
Mourinho selling Mata did terrible damage to Mata's reputation. He went from someone nearly everyone recognized as one of the league's best players to someone who *must* have flaws given Mou sold him. Even though many of the player he kept instead obviously aren't as good. All of a sudden being defensively excellent became more important at #10 than, say, scoring and assisting a load of goals.
I've even seen some people here suggest he isn't good enough to start for a PL/CL winning team, even though he was already arguably the best player in a team that won the CL. It's very stupid.
He's sort of become the anti-Kagawa. Kagawa had people coming up with a load of very flimsy excuses to explain why he was failing here, even though it seemed increasingly clear he just wasn't good enough to step up. "The rest of the team isn't on his wavelength, the team doesn't have enough pace for him to shine, he's being played out of position, etc." Mata, on the other hand, has people coming up with a load of flimsy evidence to prove he isn't good enough, despite him already having proved he is before he ever came here. "He isn't good enough defensively, he isn't creative enough, he can't play as a #10, he can't play as a winger, etc."
It's all very weird.
Mourinho selling Mata did terrible damage to Mata's reputation. He went from someone nearly everyone recognized as one of the league's best players to someone who *must* have flaws given Mou sold him. Even though many of the player he kept instead obviously aren't as good. All of a sudden being defensively excellent became more important at #10 than, say, scoring and assisting a load of goals.
I've even seen some people here suggest he isn't good enough to start for a PL/CL winning team, even though he was already arguably the best player in a team that won the CL. It's very stupid.
He's sort of become the anti-Kagawa. Kagawa had people coming up with a load of very flimsy excuses to explain why he was failing here, even though it seemed increasingly clear he just wasn't good enough to step up. "The rest of the team isn't on his wavelength, the team doesn't have enough pace for him to shine, he's being played out of position, etc." Mata, on the other hand, has people coming up with a load of flimsy evidence to prove he isn't good enough, despite him already having proved he is before he ever came here. "He isn't good enough defensively, he isn't creative enough, he can't play as a #10, he can't play as a winger, etc."
It's all very weird.
Great post, I complelty agree with you. It's a shame LVG doesnt see it that way. It seems so obvious it's painful to watch an expeienced coach not get the full potential from Juan. Our creativity would improve immediately if we played him as a number 10. Maybe the penny will drop this year. I said at the end of last season we should build around Mata and Herrera. Hopefully LVG will get the best of the wee magician. If we had speed out wide playing Mata as a number 10, we would destroy teams. His vision, touch, moments of magic, through balls and unselfish approach would be too much to handle.
I think that's the issue. He cannot do that. It's just not his game. I'm not too bothered about how hard he works (we didn't pay 37m for him to run around after all) but it's become apparent that Mata doesn't work as a #10 with the way Van Gaal plays. The slow patient build up play is more suited to a #10 like Silva who can genuinely dictate play and improve others around him. People seem to have forgotten that Van Gaal started with a 3-5-2 last season with the sole purpose of playing Rooney, Mata and RVP in their best positions. It never really worked and never looked like working. Another big problem for him is that he seemed to get shrugged off the ball when he played through the middle while he had more time on the ball after he moved out wide.
This is one of those threads where it's so obvious that you automatically assume that it's either been done before or whether there's even an actual need for it to exist.
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Good post. He's clearly capable of keeping up with his contemporaries; and will probably even more so with a proper midfield behind him this year.
Completely agree. He's a second striker, if anything.
Finishing and set pieces are his two best traits.
However, he doesn't position himself in the right areas for a number 10 in a possession team. Hes almost always too high or too deep.
I think he was so good for Chelsea because they were so poor and iffy tactically, not despite it.
Would much rather Herera in the role. He's better at increasing the tempo, he shields the ball better, rides challenges better, holds it under pressure better, turns his man better, and adds significantly better defending from the front.
Hes more adventurous/capable when receiving the ball with his back to goal, which is of benefit when the midfield is so slow and tightly packed.
Mata tends to just play the way he's facing, once he receives pressure - which would be useless on those days when the opposition get tight and agressive.
Mata gives it away less, and has cleaner technique, but I dont think he affects or dictates the game enough with his passing.
I think Mata is better at getting into positions for the final cut-back or final pass, but that Herrera's through ball (between lines, or behind defenders) is better.