I was just doing league - 5 assists last season, 1 assist post December the year before. Include Cups and he's on 8 (though 2 of those came in the CL, which Mata couldn't play in)
Juan Mata - Shall he be our #10?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I was just doing league - 5 assists last season, 1 assist post December the year before. Include Cups and he's on 8 (though 2 of those came in the CL, which Mata couldn't play in)
I'd love him to be the #10 with pace to his left (Depay), Right (Pedro) and in front (Rooney???) - with legs in Schneiderlin and maybe Herrera behind with Carrick he'd be great.
No, it’s not okay to play Depay in number 10 position. IMO whole concept of playing 4-4-1-1 (that’s the formation with Mata/Depay behind the striker) is a bad idea, and I hope we switch to 4-3-3 as soon as possible. His stats are great but once we get Pedro I don’t think there is place for Mata in first 11.
It’s possible that Mata will be the loser, not Januzaj/Pereira. It seems van Gaal doesn’t fancy him in central position at all.
This guy on reddit critically assessed Mata yesterday and gave reasons why he believes he isn't as good now as he was back then. It's a fairly long read, but very interesting.
The problem with Juan Mata
The problem with Juan Mata
I quite liked the reply in the comments section on your link, worth a read...
1: While I understand why you're comparing Mata to Hazard, Ozil and Silva, you have to understand the context of each team the player is playing within. Eden Hazard was playing for the champions, David Silva for last season's champions and Ozil for the team who had won the FA Cup twice on the bounce. All three teams finished above Utd. Mata, however, was playing for a team that was recovering from its worst season in decades and was still very much in its rebuilding phase.
Our most creative player last season was Di Maria, who created 'only' 51 chances. Juan Mata was second with 50. The problem last season was not Juan Mata not creating enough, it was our entire team not creating enough.
When compared with Herrera, Young, Di Maria and Herrera, players in the Utd team he should be realistically competing against, he scored more goals, was 2nd in terms of key passes, had the highest pass completion % and was 2nd in terms of chances created.
I completely disagree with your last sentence, too. I remember when we used to park the bus against Chelsea when Mata was at his pomp, and he still always tore us to shreds.
2: You're asserting that one player is responsible for how the entire team plays, when that player is playing for the absolute 'system over individual' manager?
Unless I'm misunderstanding what a "Successful Take On" is according to Squawka, Mata actually has a higher % of them per game than Young?
The entire paragraph about his strength is based on nothing. You've backed up your claim that he will lose possession two or three times a match in dangerous positions with nothing, he played about ten minutes against Leicester and it's incredibly harsh to use somebody's pre-season form against them - it's pre-season.
His height hasn't been that much a problem for us. We don't use the crossfield switch of play that much - any long ball we do is a lump towards Fellaini.
3: Ashley Young's workrate isn't actually anywhere near as good as you think it is. In terms of average distance covered on the pitch per 90 minutes, Young is the 8th hardest working player. Juan Mata is the hardest working player, and by quite a distance.
Although his tackling and interception stats won't be as good as Young, a player who has played parts of the season as a full back and wing back, Mata has improved immensely on his defensive game.
And you say Sanchez and Hazard ran riot down our right flank, but what's this based on? We lost to each team once - against Chelsea Herrera let Hazard run and he scored, and Mata didn't get on the field when we lost against Arsenal. And it wouldn't be Mata's job to mark Hazard or Sanchez anyway, that has always been the job of the right back. For instance, if you watch our games against Arsenal, LVG assigns Valencia to aggressively mark Sanchez and to even follow him around the pitch.
Mata's position isn't tactically obsolete, in my opinion. Our best football last season was borne out of his relationship with Herrera, when Mata was deployed on the right and allowed to drift. He's a brilliant player with a brilliant footballing mind: he understands at every point what position he should be and what his next pass will be; he knows how to time his runs into the box, hence why he's such a consistent goal-scorer; and he knows what's needed at any given point in the game, whether we should speed the game up or slow the game down. The problems you're criticising Mata for are either issues we had throughout the team for the entire season or issues you're inventing.
Our most creative player last season was Di Maria, who created 'only' 51 chances. Juan Mata was second with 50. The problem last season was not Juan Mata not creating enough, it was our entire team not creating enough.
When compared with Herrera, Young, Di Maria and Herrera, players in the Utd team he should be realistically competing against, he scored more goals, was 2nd in terms of key passes, had the highest pass completion % and was 2nd in terms of chances created.
I completely disagree with your last sentence, too. I remember when we used to park the bus against Chelsea when Mata was at his pomp, and he still always tore us to shreds.
2: You're asserting that one player is responsible for how the entire team plays, when that player is playing for the absolute 'system over individual' manager?
Unless I'm misunderstanding what a "Successful Take On" is according to Squawka, Mata actually has a higher % of them per game than Young?
The entire paragraph about his strength is based on nothing. You've backed up your claim that he will lose possession two or three times a match in dangerous positions with nothing, he played about ten minutes against Leicester and it's incredibly harsh to use somebody's pre-season form against them - it's pre-season.
His height hasn't been that much a problem for us. We don't use the crossfield switch of play that much - any long ball we do is a lump towards Fellaini.
3: Ashley Young's workrate isn't actually anywhere near as good as you think it is. In terms of average distance covered on the pitch per 90 minutes, Young is the 8th hardest working player. Juan Mata is the hardest working player, and by quite a distance.
Although his tackling and interception stats won't be as good as Young, a player who has played parts of the season as a full back and wing back, Mata has improved immensely on his defensive game.
And you say Sanchez and Hazard ran riot down our right flank, but what's this based on? We lost to each team once - against Chelsea Herrera let Hazard run and he scored, and Mata didn't get on the field when we lost against Arsenal. And it wouldn't be Mata's job to mark Hazard or Sanchez anyway, that has always been the job of the right back. For instance, if you watch our games against Arsenal, LVG assigns Valencia to aggressively mark Sanchez and to even follow him around the pitch.
Mata's position isn't tactically obsolete, in my opinion. Our best football last season was borne out of his relationship with Herrera, when Mata was deployed on the right and allowed to drift. He's a brilliant player with a brilliant footballing mind: he understands at every point what position he should be and what his next pass will be; he knows how to time his runs into the box, hence why he's such a consistent goal-scorer; and he knows what's needed at any given point in the game, whether we should speed the game up or slow the game down. The problems you're criticising Mata for are either issues we had throughout the team for the entire season or issues you're inventing.
I'm amazed this post is getting as much love as it is on there. I mean, it makes some half-decent(ish) points, but some of it... in fact, a lot of it, is really feckin' daft.
I mean, he lists Juan Mata's height as a big flaw (Quote: His height is an issue in that we lose almost every aerial duel he competes in and he offers no help defensively at clearing crosses, set pieces and long balls.) I mean... how is that a serious criticism of Mata? It's not his job to do any of those things, so why bother wasting a paragraph there? He then goes on to say "The biggest problem with a lack of height is LvG's love for cross field "long balls" to switch play after drawing defences to one side of the pitch with a spell of possession. We can't employ this tactic well with Mata because he can't retain the ball when it's launched high. Mata's aerial duels won say it all really." - which is really feckin' daft. Switching the play ideally means playing long bals to a guys FEET, not his sodding head! And considering Mata has the best first touch out of anyone in our team - and the fact that he can accurately spread the play himself - he's ideal for such a tactic.
He also states that because he can't take-on a man, he's not dangerous... or something like that... which is a bit daft. You can be a dangerous footballer without having to speed past a man at every opportunity (In fact, just being able to beat a man doesn't make you a great winger - note: Andros Townsend, Aaron Lennon and Victor Moses) so the fact that he places such importance in "take-ons" is ill founded. He lists his creative passes as being way below Hazard and Silva, but of course they would be in our team for the last 1.5 years... the movement in front/around him has largely been dire.
Mata was one of our most productive players last season in terms of output. That pretty much defunts the whole article, the only issue with Mata is his lack of pace. However if we add pace in and around him, don't really think it will be a big issue.
It shouldn't be. He's not slow in the old coconut.
The problem, here and now, for those of us who want to see him in a central role - is LVG. And I don't mean that in an "LVG is a tinkering fool who plays people out of position just for kicks" way. But LVG - clearly - prefers his trusted model with a third (attacking) midfielder (as per his definition) who can overlap with the striker and make deep runs into the area frequently. Hence Memphis in that role. He may not persist with it if Memphis fails to deliver (he is, after all, capable of pragmatism - as we've seen) but it's the way he wants to play.
And Mata - clearly - is not an ideal man for that role whether we like it or not. Nor is Herrera, for that matter.
Looks to me as though Van Gaal has decided he needs power in the number 10 position and you cant really blame him with the number of powerful defensive midfielders in the Premiership and prefers to play the smaller more creative players on the wings. There was a huge difference between watching Mata and DiMaria getting knocked off the ball and giving away possession fairly easily and having Fellaini playing there who isnt half the player but was able to hold the ball under challenge and allow us to move up the pitch.
He's certainly a great option to have there.
Herrera Schweiny
Pedro Mata Memphis
Rooney
I'd enjoy seeing that team, nice balance.Pedro Mata Memphis
Rooney
4-4-2
Romero
Darmian Mike Rojo Shaw
Morgan
Herrera width Basti
Mata
Rooney Memphis
Darmian Mike Rojo Shaw
Morgan
Herrera width Basti
Mata
Rooney Memphis
Swap Mata for Schneiderlin for difficult away games and we're sorted, with Carrick and Bastian rotating. I can't wait for the season to start.
I've always said, I think Mata is best played at no.10, with players roaming in and around him. For someone with such a slight build, he holds possession better than any of our other players. I think he'd be a great link between midfield and attack, especially with pacey players like Memphis, Young and hopefully Pedro running off him, he'd be excellent.
I don't get why LVG is so resistant to try this out! It makes perfect sense to me..
I wish we just quit fannying about and played him in the hole. His passes today were sublime!
Yes he's by far the most suitable option to play as a #10.
It's ridiculous this is even up for debate! Best #10 we have by miles.
It's ridiculous this is even up for debate! Best #10 we have by miles.
Unless im mistaken there is no one good enough to play on the right. Memphis likes playing on the left, and so does Young by the look of things. Mata seems to be able our only wide option.
Btw he isnt actually glued to that wing. He has licence to roam infield as often as he wants. I think he is fine where he is, and needs to look up more often. All those passes Messi drops over RBs, Mata is capable of doing them. And with Memphis/Pedro he will definitely have a target.
Btw he isnt actually glued to that wing. He has licence to roam infield as often as he wants. I think he is fine where he is, and needs to look up more often. All those passes Messi drops over RBs, Mata is capable of doing them. And with Memphis/Pedro he will definitely have a target.
I have him being misused on the wing. It's fecking appalling.
He roamed all over the pitch anyway today so no real issue with him starting on the right.
Contradicting myself here:
Keep him wide. He floats well, and seems to find killer passes from off of center to wide. Doesn't defend well consistently but the fullbacks cover well enough.
I'd rather see Herrera at #10.
Keep him wide. He floats well, and seems to find killer passes from off of center to wide. Doesn't defend well consistently but the fullbacks cover well enough.
I'd rather see Herrera at #10.
I would like to say the trio of Memphis/mata/adnan or young or Pedro or whoever as flexible as possible
Surely they can all make in impact in all 3 positions so change them around throughout could be effective
So far mata has been fine. And he does seem to be roaming a bit
Surely they can all make in impact in all 3 positions so change them around throughout could be effective
So far mata has been fine. And he does seem to be roaming a bit
Definitely in the hole. His vision and passing are significantly better than any other player, which tends to get wasted on the wing. I'm sure he will play more centrally when Pedro comes.
#10 is his only position. He is certainly not a winger. Either play him where he plays or sit him.
Tonight showed us that he's not a winger (again) but the pass for Adnan's goal showed exactly what he is. By far our best #10 being horribly mismanaged. I like Van Gaal, I really want him to do great things here but how he can't see this is beyond me. perhaps it's through necessity with no natural RW?
----------Rooney----------
Memphis----Mata---Pedro
Is how I'd hope we'll line up if the signing comes off.
----------Rooney----------
Memphis----Mata---Pedro
Is how I'd hope we'll line up if the signing comes off.
I think the two games so far have shown us why he was Chelsea's player of the year for two seasons. They've also shown us why Mourinho was so happy to be rid of him. The trade off for the occasional piece of brilliance is that he's slow and weak and destroys a lot of our momentum with his patented "turn back inside, wait for someone to pressure him from behind and pass the ball backwards" move. I think having him at #10 would be a disaster - even having him on the wing is a luxury that we can only afford because Darmian is so good.
Maybe this should be in the unpopular opinions thread?
Maybe this should be in the unpopular opinions thread?
Play him in the hole against the weaker teams that park the bus. Herrera there against teams who press us.
Trouble is more often than not that can be his only option because Rooney won't run and Darmain won't leave his own half. On the odd occasion Depay did make a inside forward run from the left, Mata actually tried to pick him out! Need more runner when Juan recieved it on the right or going backwards or sideways to Carrick or Morgan is all he can really do. What United really need is Darmian to overlap more or Depay to do that diagnol movement more often.
Mata isn't our 10 because he is supposed to be our creative outlet and the 10 in LvGs system is usually playing more of a shadow striker than a play maker style number 10.
Yeah, he said it himself didn't he. He (LvG) prefers a second striker in that role as opposed to a third midfielder albeit he was referring to Januzaj!
I really don't see why people have such a problem with him playing from the right.
Nope, he should remain on the right. He's not good enough to be playing as a #10 in an organised side. His skill-set is lacking in key areas. This is what I said last season:
Mata's technical ability and productivity, even when he's not playing well, are two big reasons as to why we should not even consider selling him. But building a team around him because his stats are good would be the wrong move, as Chelsea found out. For a team to be built around a #10, they have to share responsibilities, and show that they can defend, press, transition well, act as a link between the midfield attack, and create chances.
The difference between Mata of the past two seasons and the Mata of 12/13, is that he has less freedom to do what he wants. In 12/13, he didn't have to bother with the defensive side of the game, and that resulted in lackadaisical pressing. (The GIF below is the perfect example of the free role Mata was given.) If a player needs a team to be built around him to be effective, then that's a huge limitation. Even ignoring the defensive side of his game, which has undoubtedly improved, there are a few elements of his game which do not do not fit the cohesive style Van Gaal is looking to play, IMO.
His positioning is probably the worst part of his game for me. He always likes to position himself away from congested areas - his favourite position being wide right - but it doesn't balance the side and it leads to a missing link. In the QPR game, for example, we seen that. He drifts away from space, while little pressure comes from the opposing team, and he's able to open his body up and deliver a great ball to Falcao. That's when he's at his best, but how many times have we seen him central? How many times have we seen him create chances for us with great passes?
I would understand building a team around Mata if there is any evidence to suggest that it would be the best route for the team. However, in a side that looks for balance, he's not the type of player that should have a divine right to start every game. FWIW, I like Mata and think he's a good squad option to have, but I simply don't understand building a team around him, especially when you consider that he's done nothing - for us and Chelsea - to warrant that. He's simply not a good enough player for the level of competitiveness we're looking for.
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Agree with your post, pal.
Also the bit in bold is essentially what I've been saying, when I've stated in the past that Chelsea being poor actually helped Mata to play well and stand out.
Even at his peak, had he joined any top possession team, he'd have found himself benched before long. Hence him apparently being better than Silva for a year or so, yet still being far below him in the pecking order for Spain. Silva even being played as a false 9 at times, despite Mata being a better finisher. That says it all.
I've also said, much like you, that if/when this team gets to where it needs to be, he'll probably have to move on or play the rotation role. He's just not fot the skill set to play in a seriously good side.
Not defensively able enough for any role in a top countering team, and has a number of weaknesses preventing him from playing as a 10 in a top possession team.
Not enough pace or dribbling ability to play wide for a top possession team either.
@Speak I've given up, I think it just needs to happen a few times so people can see what we're talking about.
So do you not think he could nail down a RCM or LCM position in a more conventional 4-3-3 if he were to track-back and improve his defensive attributes?
Definitely
His best work came from a central position
The assist for Januzaj and that pass to Depay came from central positions
With 2 defensive minded strong midfielders behind him hes a luxury we can afford
His best work came from a central position
The assist for Januzaj and that pass to Depay
came from central positions With 2 defensive minded strong midfielders behind him hes a luxury we can afford
OK maybe he'd be better at 10 but as long as he's on the pitch somewhere I'm happy. A player with his quality has to start as we saw tonight he can open the door to the opposition with one moment of good vision and any decent run.
Such a talented player and I think he does well on the right but at 10 he might be able to do even more
Such a talented player and I think he does well on the right but at 10 he might be able to do even more
Agree with you entirely, top quality player that with a top class striker in front of him would excel even more.
LVG's #10 needs to be stronger on the ball than Mata is. Mata has a tendency to lose us possession rather frequently and I'd rather that happen out wide than centrally. I remember in the old Kagawa debates during the Moyes season people arguing that Kagawa wasn't up to the job physically but he actually very rarely gave the ball away, unlike Mata. At the moment, for me, out first choice #10s are Rooney (form permitting) and Fellaini. Memphis could do well in this role and I prefer Herrera as a box-to-box midfielder than a #10.
Great player, nice guy. Didn't LvG try him in the n10 position last year? Anyways, I think he mostly lacks the physique to be a false-10. I can understand why Louis want to exploit Depays strenghts in that area. More than Mata, Depay's very strong and has a great shot. I'm afraid Mata's not an ideal winger either. Considering his superior technical ability, LvG's likely to use him in various positions. He doesn't care if people think he's nuts, proved that during last WC when he made Dirk Kuyt Holland's left back. Last year Rooney became a CM and this year Blind's a CB. And then he goes on lecturing others about the principals of modern football...
No, I don't think he could. Not in a top side.
Whether it's in a possession team or a counter-attacking team, he's just not good enough, ultimately. And there's only so much he can do to improve his defensive game.