I'm a day behind on this conversation but this was the point I was going to make. Even if you go by the logic that an armed civilian could've saved the day - a nightclub is not the place for that, the last thing you'd want in a club with drinking involved is a bunch of people with guns thinking they're going to save the day.
Mass shooting at Gay night club in Orlando
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I'm a day behind on this conversation but this was the point I was going to make. Even if you go by the logic that an armed civilian could've saved the day - a nightclub is not the place for that, the last thing you'd want in a club with drinking involved is a bunch of people with guns thinking they're going to save the day.
One thing to start at which is different from the US vs France and most european countries, and it is both a positive and a negative: these situations will be responded to by local SWAT. There's no time to fly out the FBI HRT, there's no precedent in the US for the military taking lead, and there's the same time constrain to fly out a team from North Carolina or Virginia. I can't imagine that's even a contingency of theirs anymore since 9/11. So response is probably quicker because its local, but it the quality and resources of the local SWAT are variable, and not up to the very best that could be brought if time wasn't an issue.
That leads to your question about tactics shifting. Maybe, but did Orlando SWAT practice this too, or are they maybe still practicing older Hostage Rescue scenarios (which still happen btw)? And even then, as fast as you might want to be, I think no unit wants to go in without an understanding of the layout, number and possibly appearance of suspects, etc.
This is all speculation on my part though. I can't imagine there's any way to respond as quick as we'd like to these events, because there's no way to be alert 24/7 and respond in minutes. The wall thing I'd guess is that in any regular building as conspicuous as you can be you must always funnel through doors. Blowing a hole in a wall creates a surprising point of entry.
Naturally some of them will be mentally disturbed. This guy doesn't sound like a stable kind of guy from the testimony of his ex wife. In life we are all a product of our genes and environment. I am not saying that he was Mr all America and then last week read the Koran, some ISIS propaganda and went to commit the atrocity. Of course it will be the perfect storm of numerous factors in his life. But at the core of his motivation I believe would be his interpretation of Islam, his final justification if you like, hence the last minute call pledging his allegiance
Isn't lone attackers exactly what they asked for? So if he's there's any evidence of interest in them then it would seem a fair link and a likely contribution to the motivation.
Then this tragedy is entirely of his own making, and nothing to do with his religion - how we choose to interpret religious texts is a personal thing.
I don't want to argue because I'm not really disagreeing with you. My concern is - or this could be seen as an opportunity depending on your outlook - is that if ISIS' strategy is to encourage 'lone wolves' - and if a large proportion of those people are mentally unstable/vulnerable - then what can we do to reduce the pool of potential lone wolves out there?
This guy gets it. Bravo.
just the columbine, san ysidro, sandy hook, Edmond, Lafayette etc to worry about then /s
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His interpretation is the ISIS conservative Wahhabism version of Islam, he believes in the Caliphate. Essentially a strict observance of the Koran so I do believe it to be about religion to a significant degree.
I don't know if a large portion of them are mentally unstable or not.
War of ideas, give them a hug? I really I have no plan of action to suggest.
My intuition is that most of them are mentally unstable. I say this because I can't imagine mentally stable people doing such things.
In terms of what to do, I think better mental health care in general would help.
While I do agree that interpreting ancient religious texts literally is a personal choice, you do have Hadith that quote the Prophet Muhammad as such...
Book 38, Number 4447:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Orlando shootings: 'No clear evidence' of IS link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36521761
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36521761
Seems as if our government are trying to ignore the fact that ISIS called for lone wolf attacks across the country during Ramadan and then a lone wolf attack happens in our country during Ramadan.
It is as though they're arguing semantics about what "link" means.
They asked for it. They got it. Do they have to send the guy an officially sealed order in iambic pentameter or something?
That's depressing. I know history teachers are a pretty big pool here, but nursing is a massively understaffed profession in the states.
I wonder if I could look up a long lost cousin over there to sponsor lol.
Well, there is certainly correlation there but that doesn't necessarily mean causation? I think there are quite a few degrees to linkage as well, like was this guy considering doing something like this and decided the timing because of ISIS, or he wouldn't have done anything at all if not for their influence?
I'm not too clear on exactly what the facts of this link are, at the moment.
The point's being missed; it is: even if your religious text orders you to kill, you still have the choice not to do so.
Top quality post.
Indeed you do.
I mean.. for the record: Genesis 19 and Leviticus 20:13 is most likely where Muhammad got the inspiration to say what he said. I think it's historical fact that Islam is heavily influenced by the other 2 Abrahamic faiths in the area, yet even the loonies at Westboro aren't actually killing people.
It would be interesting to see the take of those who post in the "Religion, what's the point" thread on whether you blame the individuals for their actions or their religions.
Fat Chicks, Little Dicks. Their views on arming the country are insane. Although the vast majority of members have demanded more stringent background checks the association continue to suggest everyone be armed to the teeth. Wayne LaPierre is an odious cnut and I would gladly see his life taken by the violence of firearms then the thousands who have sadly lost theirs at the hands of lunatics who had no issues buying weapons of war.
Well obviously....just like even if you have guns it is your own choice to kill someone. Doesn't stop people from blaming guns now does it.
Islam and religion in general is one of the main reasons for homophobia and the issue should be tackled not ignored. Ignoring it is not going to help educate the idiots who still swear by fairy tales.
Religion is a motivator but is only an excuse for the heinous actions committed on Sunday. Homophobia is rampant through most of religion but this was a hate crime pure and simple. His father told the media he was not religious and freaked out when he saw two blokes kissing last month. I am willing to bet he was a closet homosexual himself and watching this sent him right over the edge to ultimate point of mass murder.
Spot on here.
In America definitely. The mentally ill are generally on the fringes of society, uninsured and therefore forsaken essentially.
This chap was in training to be in the NYPD however, so I am not sure if he was impoverish or not.
Goes back to Ronald Reagan doesn't it?
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And beyond, go look at some of the ways we treated the mentally ill back over the 1900's and before
Oh well, back then everyone was doing terrible things to the mentally ill.
What I'm referring to is this...
http://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/ronald_reagans_shameful_legacy_violence_the_homeless_mental_illness/
He was all for de-institutionalization and equated psychiatry with communism etc.
You missed my point. I'm not blaming ISIS for this. I'm blaming this idiot for his own actions. ISIS needs to be exterminated because of their atrocities in the Middle East, not because they have a Youtube video filled with hateful gibberish.
That's separate from the point that people are selective regarding blaming "influences" depending on who the shooter is.
Disgusted Owen Jones walks out of Sky News over bid to distance Orlando shooting from gay hate crime
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...rime/ar-AAgYmj1?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignoutmd
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...rime/ar-AAgYmj1?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignoutmd
The reason I think we need to understand the connection with ISIS through some indirect or direct inspiration is because so many people in this country think that ISIS can't come here... especially young people. I can't tell you how many students I've had who have a could-care-less attitude about this issue. People need to realize that it isn't a case of "if" or "when" ISIS can come here, but rather a case in which they are already here.
For me, it has nothing to do with who to blame, but rather with accepting the fact that we've been infiltrated by ISIS without them actually coming here.
Douglas Murray who I pretty much disagree with on everything is pretty much spot on here -
Next you'll tell me video games are to blame for school massacres.
And Marilyn Manson.
What a ridiculous comparison. The religious undertones to this are quite blatant but apparently you cannot point a finger at religion. Give me a break.
How do you tackle it though>?
Tbf Manson might have deserved a bit more scrutiny if a series of people had referenced him as a motivating factor for their mass killings. At that point it would probably be weirder if he didn't become one of the focuses of the story.