Mass shooting at Gay night club in Orlando

MJJ said:
Unlike you I have no idea what goes on in other people's mind.

You clearly have very little knowledge about Islam, the current state of affairs regarding terrorists and even this shooter, it would be wiser for you to spend some time googling rather than "questioning Islam"
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Let us be brutally honest here, it is not like these guys are yelling "Buddah U Akhbar" or "Jesus Uh Akhbar" while they are comitting these crimes. There is one common denominator in most of these cases, and that needs to be adressed sooner or later.

Blah blah blah, religion of peace, blah blah, we have heard it all before. The facts is that there are deepfound issues within your religion, and more apologist arguments won't ever change that.

Sorry if I come out crass, but we have heard apologists harp on for 10 years now with little or no change, or if there has been any change it has been towards the worse.
 
Dwazza von Moosesteiger said:
As ideas go it would be completely unsellable in the US. I advocate small steps as more likely to effect change over massive measures that guarantee opposition from the NRA et. al.
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I know what you mean, but would that not take decades to get to somewhere sensible? I suppose it could take that long for any instant major measures to have a proper effect anyway.
 
That is scary figure to be honest but I hope those 52% are the first generation muslims, and for sure those born in Uk or are grew up there mostly have different opinion to their parents in most cases.
 
GiddyUp said:
So you can buy and own a type of weapon but you can't take it out of you're house. The thing that can be done right now is a national limit on round capacity. Limit weapons to a certain amount per clip and if the worst happens it could give a crowd of innocent people a chance to run from or engage the shooter. But I disagree with you, certain chemicals can be banned for public sale and you cant drive around town in a Formula One car. Guns are a product and should be stringently regulated for the safety of the public. This guy walked in to a store to purchase this weapon and walked out in minutes with it under his arm.
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This weapon has no place in the hands of someone outside of military or law
Enforcement.
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Firearm during the writing of the second amendment.

Times change, especially over the last two hundred years, shouldn't the interpretation of this amendment change when considering the difference in weapons?
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NY State Safe Act tried to limit the size of magazines, limited people to magazines with a seven round capacity. Problem being......NOBODY makes a magazine that holds only seven rounds. so then they changed the law to say you could only put seven rounds in a magazine at a time. Brilliant stuff from my NY State Legislature. Heart was in the right place, sort of screwed up the on the follow through.

They had a few other problems with the law (passed after Sandy Hook), some fixed some not.
 
Fwiw, unlike rednev I don't think Islam is a religion of hate at all. It can be a beautiful thing for people who need hope in their life, just like any other religion.

My main concern is that there seems to be a lot of ambiguous text that can be interpret wrongly. That's just a simple fact that noone can deny anymore surely? I'm not saying we should try to abolish religion but something clearly needs to happen to address that issue?
 
SwansonsTache said:
Let us be brutally honest here, it is not like these guys are yelling "Buddah U Akhbar" or "Jesus Uh Akhbar" while they are comitting these crimes. There is one common denominator in most of these cases, and that needs to be adressed sooner or later.

Blah blah blah, religion of peace, blah blah, we have heard it all before. The facts is that there are deepfound issues within your religion, and more apologist arguments won't ever change that.

Sorry if I come out crass, but we have heard apologists harp on for 10 years now with little or no change, or if there has been any change it has been towards the worse.
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Sorry if you mistook my posts either as an apology or as apologist arguments, why would I apologize for someone who was mentally sick and by all accounts, not a muslim?
 
Vato said:
Fwiw, unlike rednev I don't think Islam is a religion of hate at all. It can be a beautiful thing for people who need hope in their life, just like any other religion.

My main concern is that there seems to be a lot of ambiguous text that can be interpret wrongly. That's just a simple fact that noone can deny anymore surely? I'm not saying we should try to abolish religion but something clearly needs to happen to address that issue?
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I actually agree with you here, there needs to be better guidance and a central liberal leaning body which guides Islam not the current state of affairs but not because of nutjobs like this shooter.

There is a lot lacking in the current teachings of Islam which should ideally be improved on.
 
MJJ said:
Sorry if you mistook my posts either as an apology or as apologist arguments, why would I apologize for someone who was mentally sick and by all accounts, not a muslim?
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:lol: That's part of the problem imo.

Who are you to say he's not a muslim? You might not see him as one but in his mind he most definately is.
 
GiddyUp said:
It's a tough one buddy especially the handgun and semi issues. I just really hate feeling this way every few months it seems. I'm not anti gun, just anti tens of innocent people shot up with no hope of escape or opertunity to fight for their lives.
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It's horrible all right. The two camps are so far apart in the US that proposals for extreme control measures seem to do more harm than good. I'll imagine that Hillary's weapon of war comments will lead to a massive increase in sales of black rifles, etc.
 
MJJ said:
Sorry if you mistook my posts either as an apology or as apologist arguments, why would I apologize for someone who was mentally sick and by all accounts, not a muslim?
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My comment was a general one. Now within two days we have had two incidents where both have claimed the support of ISIS which is an organisation that claim they have the correct and salafist view towards Islam.

We need to get real in this discussion and actually aknowledge that there seems to be a big vacuum for hate in Islam. You can hardly open the newspaper these days without reading about another act of terrorism commited in the name of Islam. All the while we hear the same harping on about how it is the religion of peace etc.

We actually had a muslim scholar in a big Norwegian newspaper rallying all muslims to drop the "victimhood" and start looking inwards instead of outwards to explain what is going on. And I fully agree with him.
 
JustAFan said:
NY State Safe Act tried to limit the size of magazines, limited people to magazines with a seven round capacity. Problem being......NOBODY makes a magazine that holds only seven rounds. so then they changed the law to say you could only put seven rounds in a magazine at a time. Brilliant stuff from my NY State Legislature. Heart was in the right place, sort of screwed up the on the follow through.

They had a few other problems with the law (passed after Sandy Hook), some fixed some not.
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fecking loopholes. The issue may also be the people who write legislation, the lobbyists are just too powerful in American life.
 
Vato said:
:lol: That's part of the problem imo.

Who are you to say he's not a muslim? You might not see him as one but in his mind he most definately is.
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How do you even know what is going on his mind? Isnt that part of the problem as well, making presumptive judgements?

SwansonsTache said:
My comment was a general one. Now within two days we have had two incidents where both have claimed the support of ISIS which is an organisation that claim they have the correct and salafist view towards Islam.

We need to get real in this discussion and actually aknowledge that there seems to be a big vacuum for hate in Islam. You can hardly open the newspaper these days without reading about another act of terrorism commited in the name of Islam. All the while we hear the same harping on about how it is the religion of peace etc.

We actually had a muslim scholar in a big Norwegian newspaper rallying all muslims to drop the "victimhood" and start looking inwards instead of outwards to explain what is going on. And I fully agree with him.
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MJJ said:
I actually agree with you here, there needs to be better guidance and a central liberal leaning body which guides Islam not the current state of affairs but not because of nutjobs like this shooter.

There is a lot lacking in the current teachings of Islam which should ideally be improved on.
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See above, I do agree with you that there needs to be an educated central authority which can decide how we want Islam to be spread rather than leave it to the likes of ISIS but not just because of terrorists. If you try to reform Islam because of terrorists only, I dont believe it will work. In my opinion, educating people will work a lot better.
 
Fearless said:
No. More like swearing allegiance to Christ, regardless of Catholic or Protestant beliefs.
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It's not like that though fearless, its much more polarised, especially when it concerns radicalised muslims (as I'm sure you're more than aware of) those specific groups do not consider the others to be adherents of the same religion, to even pronounce allegiance to one of those groups invites an instant death sentence from there others (but I'm sure you already know that).
 
MJJ said:
How do you even know what is going on his mind? Isnt that part of the problem as well, making presumptive judgements?
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Aren't you doing exactly the same though?
MJJ said:
He was gay, drank, visited a gay nightclub for three years while pledging allegiance to three rival organizations. For some reason, I doubt religion was his main motivation.
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Dwazza von Moosesteiger said:
It's horrible all right. The two camps are so far apart in the US that proposals for extreme control measures seem to do more harm than good. I'll imagine that Hillary's weapon of war comments will lead to a massive increase in sales of black rifles, etc.
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Already have, happens every time a weapon like this is used. What I find really crazy is that over 75% of NRA members want stricter background checks and a closure of the gun show loop hole. Unfortunately this association is a lobby for gun manufacturers and not representatives for a national association of responsible gun owners.
 
MJJ said:
How do you even know what is going on his mind? Isnt that part of the problem as well, making presumptive judgements?





See above, I do agree with you that there needs to be an educated central authority which can decide how we want Islam to be spread rather than leave it to the likes of ISIS but not just because of terrorists. If you try to reform Islam because of terrorists only, I dont believe it will work. In my opinion, educating people will work a lot better.
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I agree with a lot of your sentiments.

A young muslim girl from Iran who currently lives in Norway had a nice way of putting it I think, she said something along the lines of "We need to stop letting angry old men with beards tell us how we are supposed to interpret our religion, or how to live our lives. The world belongs to the youth, and it is our job to define it."
 
GiddyUp said:
fecking loopholes. The issue may also be the people who write legislation, the lobbyists are just too powerful in American life.
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Was not really a loophole it was a problem with the politicians being in such a rush to get some legislation passed they feck a few things up. Can't totally blame them for trying to get something done post Sandy Hook
 
JustAFan said:
NY State Safe Act tried to limit the size of magazines, limited people to magazines with a seven round capacity. Problem being......NOBODY makes a magazine that holds only seven rounds. so then they changed the law to say you could only put seven rounds in a magazine at a time. Brilliant stuff from my NY State Legislature. Heart was in the right place, sort of screwed up the on the follow through.

They had a few other problems with the law (passed after Sandy Hook), some fixed some not.
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:wenger: why seven? That's so completely idiotic, like someone just plucked the number out of thin air or asked a focus group how many deaths were acceptable in a mass shooting event.

Ten rounds is the best starting point. The magazines are still ergonomically functional (five round rifle mags are oddly sized for the AR platform). I have a couple of dedicated 10 rounders from Rock River Arms, they're very popular up here.

Sigh. Then again, there's a newish AR platform that uses a round called .50 Beowulf whose magazine holds only five of those rounds but will hold plenty (11-15 rounds) of 5.56/.223 it's very difficult to control capacity, too.
 
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Vato said:
Aren't you doing exactly the same though?
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Am I? Am making a statement that he isnt a muslim based on the facts before me, you while you are arguing that he thought of himself as a muslim in his mind. Two different things, the first one is my opinion on him while yours is an opinion on what he thought of himself.

If I would have said that he didnt think of himself as a muslim, it would be exactly the same thing.

SwansonsTache said:
I agree with a lot of your sentiments.

A young muslim girl from Iran who currently lives in Norway had a nice way of putting it I think, she said something along the lines of "We need to stop letting angry old men with beards tell us how we are supposed to interpret our religion, or how to live our lives. The world belongs to the youth, and it is our job to define it."
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Beautifully said. I agree with her 100%.
 
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Fearless said:
No. More like swearing allegiance to Christ, regardless of Catholic or Protestant beliefs.
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If you looked at it in the most simplistic terms possible and ignored centuries of complex history... and pledged allegiance to Allah, or even Islam in general - which this guy didn't, he named organisations.

So yes its pretty much exactly like pledging allegiance to the IRA and UVF at the same time.
 
Dwazza von Moosesteiger said:
:wenger: why seven? That's so completely idiotic, like someone just plucked the number out of thin air or asked a focus group how many deaths were acceptable in a mass shooting event.

Ten rounds is the best starting point. The magazines are still ergonomically functional (five round rifle mags are oddly sized for the AR platform). I have a couple from Rock River Arms, they're very popular up here.
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Like I say I really think they just hurried the legislation through while they could do so and yeah I think they pulled the number out of Cuomo's backside.
 
Dwazza von Moosesteiger said:
:wenger: why seven? That's so completely idiotic, like someone just plucked the number out of thin air or asked a focus group how many deaths were acceptable in a mass shooting even

Ten rounds is the best starting point. The magazines are still ergonomically functional (five round rifle mags are oddly sized for the AR platform). I have a couple from Rock River Arms, they're very popular up here.
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My magazines for mine are 20 rounders. Bought them because the average 5.56 ammo box is packs of 20. I think somewhere between 10 and 20 would be politically feasible. Especially if they try to do a blanket limit instead of a specific ban for rifles, pistols, etc. My 9mm Glock holds 15 with a standard magazine.

One thing people don't take into effect is that when you limit round capacity too much, people end up turning to higher caliber firearms. The 7 round limit in New York basically restricts you to the granddaddy of all semi-auto pistols.. the .45 caliber Model 1911.
 
Dwazza von Moosesteiger said:
It's horrible all right. The two camps are so far apart in the US that proposals for extreme control measures seem to do more harm than good. I'll imagine that Hillary's weapon of war comments will lead to a massive increase in sales of black rifles, etc.
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Gun shop down the road from my place laughs to the bank everytime something like this happens.
 
Dwazza von Moosesteiger said:
It's horrible all right. The two camps are so far apart in the US that proposals for extreme control measures seem to do more harm than good. I'll imagine that Hillary's weapon of war comments will lead to a massive increase in sales of black rifles, etc.
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Confirmed by NPR that sales have gone up. This happens immediately following a high profile shooting with subsequent gun control talks.

Then you look at the social media feeds to see all the nonsense about "they're taking our guns!" One FB friend, who I was actually fairly good friend with four years ago but have since distanced myself from, strongly believes the fed is disarming the people and will assert full control. Nonsense. And this from a retired O-4 (USAF).
 
MrMarcello said:
Confirmed by NPR that sales have gone up. This happens immediately following a high profile shooting with subsequent gun control talks.

Then you look at the social media feeds to see all the nonsense about "they're taking our guns!" One FB friend, who I was actually fairly good friend with four years ago but have since distanced myself from, strongly believes the fed is disarming the people and will assert full control. Nonsense. And this from a retired O-4 (USAF).
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:wenger: talk about taking the 2nd too seriously.
 
SwansonsTache said:
I agree with a lot of your sentiments.

A young muslim girl from Iran who currently lives in Norway had a nice way of putting it I think, she said something along the lines of "We need to stop letting angry old men with beards tell us how we are supposed to interpret our religion, or how to live our lives. The world belongs to the youth, and it is our job to define it."
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Excellent point
 
Carolina Red said:
My magazines for mine are 20 rounders. Bought them because the average 5.56 ammo box is packs of 20. I think somewhere between 10 and 20 would be politically feasible. Especially if they try to do a blanket limit instead of a specific ban for rifles, pistols, etc. My 9mm Glock holds 15 with a standard magazine.

One thing people don't take into effect is that when you limit round capacity too much, people end up turning to higher caliber firearms. The 7 round limit in New York basically restricts you to the granddaddy of all semi-auto pistols.. the .45 caliber Model 1911.
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In Canada it's maximum 10 rounds for pistols and semi-automatic rifles are limited to five...except for AR15s which can use a 10 round magazine because there's a pistol available for sale in the same calibre. It's a bit loony all things considered. Our licensing system is the most effective control.
 
Dwazza von Moosesteiger said:
In Canada it's maximum 10 rounds for pistols and semi-automatic rifles are limited to five...except for AR15s which can use a 10 round magazine because there's a pistol available for sale in the same calibre. It's a bit loony all things considered. Our licensing system is the most effective control.
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I did not realize that you had the 10 round exemption for AR's. I'd always thought it was 5 rounds for them as well. It wouldn't bother me at all if 15 rounds became the compromise point federally here, with states able to go lower if they felt like it. I doubt 10 would pass Congress.

Licensing or something like it would go a long way towards helping here in the States I believe. It would be a long, tedious process however, as that's going to end up being fought on the issue of "state's rights" I believe. South Carolina for instance has ZERO form of gun registry. The state government has no idea how many guns are in the state or who owns them... that's kinda disturbing.
 
Carolina Red said:
I did not realize that you had the 10 round exemption for AR's. I'd always thought it was 5 rounds for them as well. It wouldn't bother me at all if 15 rounds became the compromise point federally here, with states able to go lower if they felt like it. I doubt 10 would pass Congress.

Licensing or something like it would go a long way towards helping here in the States I believe. It would be a long, tedious process however, as that's going to end up being fought on the issue of "state's rights" I believe. South Carolina for instance has ZERO form of gun registry. The state government has no idea how many guns are in the state or who owns them... that's kinda disturbing.
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It's not really an exemption it's just unenforceable. The magazine has to have 'pistol' stamped on it to be legit and since we can only use ARs at an approved shooting range it seems pointless to even attempt enforcing anything.

Our licensing is for people not guns. We don't register all guns anymore, just handguns and black rifles, etc (have done those since the 1930s). It's a lengthy process but seems to be effective (after taking and passing your courses and exams it's a three month wait for your license). Even when we registered all firearms it was estimated that only half of all existing guns made it into the list. We can't say it was very useful, either. Better to know who might have guns than to know what they have.
 
Dwazza von Moosesteiger said:
It's not really an exemption it's just unenforceable. The magazine has to have 'pistol' stamped on it to be legit and since we can only use ARs at an approved shooting range it seems pointless to even attempt enforcing anything.

Our licensing is for people not guns. We don't register all guns anymore, just handguns and black rifles, etc (have done those since the 1930s). It's a lengthy process but seems to be effective. Even when we registered all firearms it was estimated that only half of all existing guns made it into the list. We can't say it was very useful, either. Better to know who might have guns than to know what they have.
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Gotcha. At least you have some info though lol. Some US states have registration systems, but because of federalism it is a state by state issue.
 
Carolina Red said:
Gotcha. At least you have some info though lol. Some US states have registration systems, but because of federalism it is a state by state issue.
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Definitely. I think the people info is more important than the gun info. Another fun part of our system is that as a firearms licence holder I am criminally background checked in real time every minute of every day. I'd say that's pretty effective.
 
JustAFan said:
First I am hearing about 1000 rounds being fired or the gun battle lasting that long. though I guess if you are firing 1000 rounds you probably are not aiming much.
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Sounds like conspiratorial nonsense to me.

That O-4 I mentioned posted it. One comment read, "320 people couldn't gang up on one man?"

These clowns do live in a fantasy world where movies provide rational thought. Must be so damn easy to gang up on an armed person in a dimly lit room with dozens scattering in panic.

"Hey, everyone, stop, collaborate, and listen. Let's gang up on the shooter!"
 
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