Social cohesion post-Brexit: let 'em rot?

Stanley Road said:
Dunno, did i say on here?
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You said.
it's a common phrase used by the bitter 48%
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Which describes a lot of the caf. I'm bitter. I voted for remain. So did and so are a lot of people.

What you mean to is, you wanted to insult the remainers, so you took the opportunity to do so.
 
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Anyone I wasn't meaning to call you out on it. No point making this become a thing.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
The problem with the blame game is that the main culprit isn't on the table. Social cohesion and the lack of it is a problem in every Western European member state. Lack of support for the EU is a problem in the whole of Western Europe, not just in the UK. In every Western member state the working class is on the wrong end of the deal.

The EU as an institution has failed miserably. It really wasn't that hard, Europe was already there, a continent full of stable social democracies with people who want to and know how to trade with eachother, who want to travel, move and live in different countries, who want eachothers products and want to compete with eachother in a friendly spirit and who respect and enjoy eachothers differences and cultures.

Basically all they had to do was to organize a transparant and democratically controlled bureaucracy to remove the barriers that stood in the way of Europeans beeing Europeans and act European. The economic activity that is freed up by removing the barriers will make everybody more wealthy. Instead, they used the building process of the institution to take away the power from democracies and give it to multinational companies and take wealth from the working classes and shift it to the haves and the haute finance. And while doing so, it creates crisis it can't solve and worsens crisis it didn't create.

The UK really isn't that unique, it's not like that if those crazy waveruling people are out it's just business as usual with the EU. There will be more referenda, civil unrest, protests, strikes, road blocks, riots, boycots etc. The best thing that could happen right now is that this Brexit gives momentum to the broad European sense that the EU really needs to change fundamentally and that the national politicians and het EU ones go back to the drawing table and come up with a EU that has solid public support. And I don't mean 52% or something, there is no good reason why a EU that works for the people wouldn't have the support of at least 70% of each of the populations. Also there's no good reason why this can't be decided within two years. Like all other member states, Scotland and Northern Ireland, the UK deserves a better EU.
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This is basically the result of the unhinged and blind belief in the greatness of the free market as a driving force for a better life for everyone isn't it? Again mostly the big hard on of the entire conservative/right spectre of European politics, although to a degree you find the same thing going on in the labour movement as well. What happened to Keynes and FDR's New Deal?
 
Andrew~ said:
I must say, the melodramatic reaction from Remainers to this has so far been incredibly funny and also incredibly disconcerting. It has an almost American feel to it.
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This. The number of economists on Facebook has risen 10,000% in the last few days.
 
Chorley1974 said:
This. The number of economists on Facebook has risen 10,000% in the last few days.
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Perhaps you confuse economists, with people listening to the views of the vast majority of economists. Usually when one is uninformed on a subject they go to people who are informed in order to get answers. I know the leave campaign is the exception to this, but I'm talking in a general sense.

I asked you twice already but you seem to not want to answer, who do you get your information from?
 
Born2Lose said:
So you make a long post about how you feel "different" and then use the word "retard". My idea of "dumb" is someone who doesn't have the vocabulary or sensitivity to choose a better word than "retard".

That I'm the only person to pick you up on it in over 2 hours really doesn't reflect well on others here.

All this thread shows is that there are ignorant bigots on both sides of the debate. It would serve a lot of people here better if they took a long hard look in the mirror and thought about changing their attitudes towards others, than using abusive language constantly.
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:lol:
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
The problem with the blame game is that the main culprit isn't on the table. Social cohesion and the lack of it is a problem in every Western European member state. Lack of support for the EU is a problem in the whole of Western Europe, not just in the UK. In every Western member state the working class is on the wrong end of the deal.

The EU as an institution has failed miserably. It really wasn't that hard, Europe was already there, a continent full of stable social democracies with people who want to and know how to trade with eachother, who want to travel, move and live in different countries, who want eachothers products and want to compete with eachother in a friendly spirit and who respect and enjoy eachothers differences and cultures.

Basically all they had to do was to organize a transparant and democratically controlled bureaucracy to remove the barriers that stood in the way of Europeans beeing Europeans and act European. The economic activity that is freed up by removing the barriers will make everybody more wealthy. Instead, they used the building process of the institution to take away the power from democracies and give it to multinational companies and take wealth from the working classes and shift it to the haves and the haute finance. And while doing so, it creates crisis it can't solve and worsens crisis it didn't create.

The UK really isn't that unique, it's not like that if those crazy waveruling people are out it's just business as usual with the EU. There will be more referenda, civil unrest, protests, strikes, road blocks, riots, boycots etc. The best thing that could happen right now is that this Brexit gives momentum to the broad European sense that the EU really needs to change fundamentally and that the national politicians and het EU ones go back to the drawing table and come up with a EU that has solid public support. And I don't mean 52% or something, there is no good reason why a EU that works for the people wouldn't have the support of at least 70% of each of the populations. Also there's no good reason why this can't be decided within two years. Like all other member states, Scotland and Northern Ireland, the UK deserves a better EU.
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Good post.

I fear your best case scenario is a lot longer away than two years though, more like two decades. The EU is just so staggeringly out of touch with what people actually want that it will have to be pushed to near collapse before true reform is possible.
 
I agree that the EU has a lot of flaws and needs to change and I would imagine there are people who voted leave did it for that reason. However I am now sure that most that voted leave are not even considering the EU, but immigration and they are now showing their true colours. They would be the sort who discriminate against the minorities back in the 50's and 60's when people moved here from the West Indies etc to get work. We weren't in the EU then. I think we should be fighting for change from being in the EU, not watching from the outside and then trying to crawl back years later.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
i think the problem is their has been no social cohesion in the first place, as by in large the rich voted in and the poor voted out.

i think as a country we should be asking why, not blaming not shouting, we have more then enough money in this country to pay decent wages for everyone who wants to work, but we havnt been, the last decade things have got worse and worse and worse for workers rights, with zero hour contracts, constants reshuffles, redundancies, increased automation reducing jobs...... and all the time the rich get richer .....

basically we have abused our working class too much over the last decade, and the price was paid with this vote
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That does overlook the fact we have a minimum wage, soon to become a living wage, and a welfare system. It's no secret that so many central and Eastern Europeans have been able to get menial jobs over here because a strata of our society refuse to do them, believing it is beneath them.
 
What menial jobs are you talking about exactly? Over here it's mostly agricultural jobs that really are minging to do. Cleaning offices and such aren't that bad in comparison.
 
Grinner said:
What menial jobs are you talking about exactly? Over here it's mostly agricultural jobs that really are minging to do. Cleaning offices and such aren't that bad in comparison.
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Was thinking things like maids at hotels, serving in cafes etc...they might do minging ones too. That summer job I had at a frozen fish factory was really minging.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
I agree that the EU has a lot of flaws and needs to change and I would imagine there are people who voted leave did it for that reason. However I am now sure that most that voted leave are not even considering the EU, but immigration and they are now showing their true colours. They would be the sort who discriminate against the minorities back in the 50's and 60's when people moved here from the West Indies etc to get work. We weren't in the EU then. I think we should be fighting for change from being in the EU, not watching from the outside and then trying to crawl back years later.
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I hate this reason, not saying the point you make is bad. I mean I hate that we as a society have not made any progress in 60 years, people are still to their core racist and discriminatory.

We look for differences, and not what makes us strong as a nation and that is something I cannot tolerate, I firstly see myself as a European before a Briton. I see a world that is broken and the people who vote leave and to be insular really make me resent them.

There is no growth when you get people telling others to "leave" based on a vote. It's the minorities who show such hatred towards others based on what soil they are born on! in what hospital they are born in.

We are all distinctly human so why show hatred because of an accent or a place of birth, it drives me nuts. Diversity is a good thing and those people who show that kind of prejudice are probably lesser educated than their counterparts.

Brexit has truly thrown this country into disrepute and I am not a nationalist, any shred of pride I had in this country is now gone.
 
Jippy said:
Was thinking things like maids at hotels, serving in cafes etc...they might do minging ones too. That summer job I had at a frozen fish factory was really minging.
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I don't think those are too bad. Not exactly a career, but hardly beneath a young person who doesn't have much education. Can you live off that sort of job's wage?
 
Grinner said:
I don't think those are too bad. Not exactly a career, but hardly beneath a young person who doesn't have much education. Can you live off that sort of job's wage?
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There's a minimum wage for a reason, so yes. But you wouldn't have any sort of luxury in life.

Those kind of jobs are the ones after even months of labour the person goes "I wish i tried harder in school".

I personally think getting kids into career choices earlier or to try different career paths would help young-adults in this country.

You get 14-16 year olds in school, what did you learn? "nothing", did you like school today? "not really".

There's some great jobs out there, with real nice lifestyles associated with them kids should be able to push their interests a bit earlier rather than be stuck in classes with no interest to them.
 
Grinner said:
But service jobs are always going to exist. Not everybody can go to college and be an engineer.
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Service jobs aren't always going to be actually, eventually they'll be gone... maybe not for 20 years though.

Would you have said driver-less cars would be coming, 10 years ago?

And yes everybody can go to college to be an engineer. It's just not everybody wants to.

There's all kinds of schemes such as night classes after a work day, courses being paid by the government or job centres, you'd be surprised.
 
Grinner said:
I don't think those are too bad. Not exactly a career, but hardly beneath a young person who doesn't have much education. Can you live off that sort of job's wage?
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Would be a fairly spartan existence in London, given rents. The issue more is getting some Brits off their arse to actually do these jobs though.
 
TheNewEra said:
Service jobs aren't always going to be actually, eventually they'll be gone... maybe not for 20 years though.

Would you have said driver-less cars would be coming, 10 years ago?

And yes everybody can go to college to be an engineer. It's just not everybody wants to.

There's all kinds of schemes such as night classes after a work day, courses being paid by the government or job centres, you'd be surprised.
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I'm more saying that some people are just thick. Nothing against them but they'll never be able to go above a certain level.
 
Grinner said:
I don't think those are too bad. Not exactly a career, but hardly beneath a young person who doesn't have much education. Can you live off that sort of job's wage?
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They shouldn't be below them, it's a job, a job can lead to a better job if you work hard and show initiative. Yet some won't do them, or waiting in a cafe is a job you do as a kid for pocket money. People never used to turn their noses up at work. Why has that changed?
 
Jippy said:
Would be a fairly spartan existence in London, given rents. The issue more is getting some Brits off their arse to actually do these jobs though.
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Yup just look at youtube for "benefits britain" to see that point illustrated.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
They shouldn't be below them, it's a job, a job can lead to a better job if you work hard and show initiative. Yet some won't do them, or waiting in a cafe is a job you do as a kid for pocket money. People never used to turn their noses up at work. Why has that changed?
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Many reasons but I don't think too many Poles is one of them.
 
It's impossible to have a proper debate about race because (nativist) racists love to bring up the idea that minorities can be racist as well, so everything must somehow be equal. Well, it's not. Ethnic minorities get the shitty end of the stick, and it's only on occasions like this that the truth gets revealed.
 
Zarlak said:
Perhaps you confuse economists, with people listening to the views of the vast majority of economists. Usually when one is uninformed on a subject they go to people who are informed in order to get answers. I know the leave campaign is the exception to this, but I'm talking in a general sense.

I asked you twice already but you seem to not want to answer, who do you get your information from?
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Whom do i get my information from? There are a lot of business people that think Brexit makes sense, do you want me to name them? You should also realise that there are a lot of opinions from sources who have skin in the game and aren't impartial to say the least. Some of the cataclysmic predictions about the stock market have turned out to be untrue already, the stock market is now where it was about 3 weeks ago.

Honest question; What's your issue with people having a different opinion? I voted to remain but have opened up a few questions regarding the leave campaign and the response is somewhat vitriolic, I'm intrigued.
 
Grinner said:
Many reasons but I don't think too many Poles is one of them.
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My dentists are Polish and the best dentists I have had. My former hairdresser is Polish as well and a damn good hairdresser, she unfortunately had to go back to Poland because of family illness.
 
Dante said:
It's impossible to have a proper debate about race because (nativist) racists love to bring up the idea that minorities can be racist as well, so everything must somehow be equal. Well, it's not. Ethnic minorities get the shitty end of the stick, and it's only on occasions like this that the truth gets revealed.
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Agreed, in-fact racism hasn't gone anywhere.

A large reason why the job market has changed is down to "equal opportunity" laws.

Job applications have a form asking for your ethnic background and sexuality to get everybody to have an equal opportunity at a job or career progression. If you were an ethnic minority, highly-educated and you lost out on a job to somebody who was less qualified then you could sue essentially.

The majority of the workplace is down to laws like that now. but I don't think the mindset has changed I just think a lot of the time it's down to the legal system.

Me personally I don't understand as some others has put it out there "the small mindedness" has gone away, but I think a lot of what goes on is down to "projection" a Psychological term for people reflecting how they feel about themselves onto others. AKA they are not happy about their lives, or their education, job prospects etc and let that out on others.

There is a lot of resentment because they see somebody working hard, they are on the dole and it's much easier to point the finger and project rather than think right, time to get a job!
 
Chorley1974 said:
Whom do i get my information from? There are a lot of business people that think Brexit makes sense, do you want me to name them? You should also realise that there are a lot of opinions from sources who have skin in the game and aren't impartial to say the least. Some of the cataclysmic predictions about the stock market have turned out to be untrue already, the stock market is now where it was about 3 weeks ago.

Honest question; What's your issue with people having a different opinion? I voted to remain but have opened up a few questions regarding the leave campaign and the response is somewhat vitriolic, I'm intrigued.
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Yeah, I would like to know them. Maybe I can educate myself, or the rest of us can educate ourselves because nobody ever named any of these experts supporting the leave campaign in like, the last few months.

I don't have an issue with anyone having a different opinion, I'm just interested to see where that opinion comes from. Most of the time it seems to be nowhere, or Boris Johnson, or Michael Gove, or Britain first. You question them about it and they distance themselves away from it with 'no I made my own mind up' but when you ask where they informed themselves they seem not to want to say. My own suspicion is because they don't have any credible source but want you to think they did. Or they did infact take their information from Boris Johnson for example but because they know how much of a dickhead he is they don't want to say his name and prove any point. So I'm genuinely interested to find out where it came from. I'm happy to be wrong. All the experts pretty much were in favour of remain, so if there were masses of them that were not then maybe they should have been more vocal or the leave voters should have brought them up in any of the debates to counter the expert opinion that the remain side brought forward instead of just replying with 'scaremongering'.
 
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I'm pretty sure my sister got all her info from FB posts. I sent her some articles on what it would mean for her severely disabled daughter but she only cared about the immigrants.
 
TheNewEra said:
Agreed, in-fact racism hasn't gone anywhere.

A large reason why the job market has changed is down to "equal opportunity" laws.

Job applications have a form asking for your ethnic background and sexuality to get everybody to have an equal opportunity at a job or career progression. If you were an ethnic minority, highly-educated and you lost out on a job to somebody who was less qualified then you could sue essentially.

The majority of the workplace is down to laws like that now. but I don't think the mindset has changed I just think a lot of the time it's down to the legal system.

Me personally I don't understand as some others has put it out there "the small mindedness" has gone away, but I think a lot of what goes on is down to "projection" a Psychological term for people reflecting how they feel about themselves onto others. AKA they are not happy about their lives, or their education, job prospects etc and let that out on others.

There is a lot of resentment because they see somebody working hard, they are on the dole and it's much easier to point the finger and project rather than think right, time to get a job!
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Maybe this lot should all go to Poland as according to them all the Poles are over here doing their jobs. The Poles are hardworking and will go to where there are jobs. While a lot of the moaners are too scared to move away from home to find work.
 
Grinner said:
I'm pretty sure my sister got all her info from FB posts. I sent her some articles on what it would mean for her severely disabled daughter but she only cared about the immigrants.
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My sister is disabled and I am worried what Brexit have dropped on her.
 
Zarlak said:
Yeah, I would like to know them. Maybe I can educate myself, or the rest of us can educate ourselves because nobody ever named any of these experts supporting the leave campaign in like, the last few months.

I don't have an issue with anyone having a different opinion, I'm just interested to see where that opinion comes from. Most of the time it seems to be nowhere, or Boris Johnson, or Michael Gove, or Britain first. You question them about it and they distance themselves away from it with 'no I made my own mind up' but when you ask where they informed themselves they seem not to want to say. My own suspicion is because they don't have any credible source but want you to think they did. Or they did infact take their information from Boris Johnson for example but because they know how much of a dickhead he is they don't want to say his name and prove any point. So I'm genuinely interested to find out where it came from. I'm happy to be wrong. All the experts pretty much were in favour of remain, so if there were masses of them that were not then maybe they should have been more vocal or the leave voters should have brought them up in any of the debates to counter the expert opinion that the remain side brought forward instead of just replying with 'scaremongering'.
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You didn't answer my question on your issues in terms of the vitriol and abuse, can you not just respect people's opinions? in the meantime I will consider whether to bother to pull together a list of brexit business supporters/economists, there are a bunch of them who supported brexit, JCB boss etc etc.

I voted remain, but can't help believe that your attitude drove others to vote out.
 
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