Pro BrExit voters - how do you feel now?

[Tiber]

Feel absolutely fine about it. Brexit was never going to be an easy process nor was it a decision made for the sake of impacting the first 3 weeks.

The media pant wetting from pro-remain journalists has been utterly pathetic.

- why you voted leave

I wanted to control (not end, control) immigration, get back control of laws, courts etc. I believe that the EU is not un-democratic, but anti-democratic, I hate the impact that it has on many industries such as fishing, farming etc but also not so specialised jobs like security guards ... basically many of the same reasons people have been banging om about really. I could go in depth here but I feel like we all heard the reasons a million times.

Immigration is a big issue for me, I know that some will always portray any concern about immigration as racism but it isn't that - I have watched the impact that uncontrolled immigration has had on local towns and communities, I have seen family members lose income and wages because the vast amounts of cheap labour has made more and more jobs offer the minimum wage. I very much worry about the amount of school places and hospital beds and things like that, it is a cliche I know that, but I think there is also truth. I think that bringing in an Australian style immigration system is really important - I am not saying end unskilled immigration, but I defiantly think that it is important to be able to slow it if necessary

I have worked for the EU and know just how little they care about what the ordinary people think. It is a bubble of elites and they genuinely do not give a shit about the little people or what they think. In many ways we disgust them.

It wasn't a vote for the status quo or Brexit, it was a vote for a more powerful EU or Brexit. The Commission and so many people within the EU want a United States of Europe. I do not want to see British Soldiers die under an EU flag, I do not want to be an EU citizen, I do not want to be governed by an unelected Commission in Belgium. I want to be British. I also do not want to be in political Union with Turkey - talks opened last week

I think that the EU is a bad organisation - worse, I think that it is hell bent on not reforming and wants nothing more than more integration and more power. But even setting aside the whole "the EU doesn't work" thing, I have never felt drawn to the idea of a European Superstate. Others on the Leave side will disagree with me but I have never really felt "European" at any point in my life. Culturally I feel much closer to Oz, Canada, America and many Commonwealth countries than I do to Luxembourg or Austria. The only time I ever feel "European" is watching United play in the Champions league - and Israel plays in that!

- if you still think you made the right decision and why

Ask me this question in a decade - it has been a week, other than the guardian moaning a lot nothing has actually happened yet.

- has the past week been as expected

I expected better from the BBC (the website coverage especially has just been pathetic since the rules got relaxed) but I fully expected a pity party from the Pro-EU side of the media.

It is very disappointing to see thousands of people march in London against democracy - but the capital is in a different world than the rest of the country at the best of times.

Our political class are morons - pretty much to a man/woman. With a few notable exceptions I have very little time for most of the politicians on both sides and am not surprised that the country is currently suffering from a famine of leadership and bountiful politicians playing petty games.

- how you expect next few weeks and months to play out.

Tough, with a lot of propaganda in the media from both sides. Brexit will only work with strong leadership - leaving the EU is not going to be "easy" we need a good deal from Europe (they can blab on about not giving us a deal all they like but when it comes down to it countries like the ROI and Germany can't afford to lose thousands of jobs as a result of a petty trade war anymore than the UK can.)

Once we have the EU deal it's time to look to the world. I am not a little Englander but nor am I a little European - we need to do a deal with the EU then look globally, get deals done with Australia, NZ (its a disgrace that we don't have Commonwealth deals already) Canada, America, India, South Korea, Japan ... this is a global world, looking beyond little Europe needs to be more than a campaign slogan.

What I will say is that I believe Brexit will be great for the UK but it is one change - we need many more - starting with bringing in PR for Westminster elections and bringing in an elected senate to replace the House of Lords. I grew up in Northern Ireland which is a mess in so many ways but the way we vote for Assembly elections is light years ahead of England. Say what you like about UKIP, I could type out many pages of criticisms but I think that it is a disgrace than 4 million UKIP voters have one voice in the Westminster and parties with many many less votes have significant representation.

I live in the North of England and so many people feel completely out of touch with even the local MPs never mind the Westminster lot - just look at the some of the areas with incredibly pro EU MPs but 70% of people voting for Brexit - we need politicians that represent the people of the UK, not a tiny group of ex think tank employees and multi millionaires who dread the thought of meeting a constituent.


Do I still believe in Brexit? Yes. Do I believe the out of touch elitist political class are capable of making a good job of it? lol


I think it is a shame that every bad thing that happens in the next ten years, every attack from a racist moron, every shop that closes, every time someone gets a cold - is going to be blamed on Brexit - but I suppose that is the world we live in.


Oh and I am still waiting for the outbreak of WW3 and the promised locusts.

 

[Stanley Road]

Dobs hat

 

[TwoSheds]

Feel absolutely fine about it. Brexit was never going to be an easy process nor was it a decision made for the sake of impacting the first 3 weeks.

The media pant wetting from pro-remain journalists has been utterly pathetic.

- why you voted leave

I wanted to control (not end, control) immigration, get back control of laws, courts etc. I believe that the EU is not un-democratic, but anti-democratic, I hate the impact that it has on many industries such as fishing, farming etc but also not so specialised jobs like security guards ... basically many of the same reasons people have been banging om about really. I could go in depth here but I feel like we all heard the reasons a million times.

Immigration is a big issue for me, I know that some will always portray any concern about immigration as racism but it isn't that - I have watched the impact that uncontrolled immigration has had on local towns and communities, I have seen family members lose income and wages because the vast amounts of cheap labour has made more and more jobs offer the minimum wage. I very much worry about the amount of school places and hospital beds and things like that, it is a cliche I know that, but I think there is also truth. I think that bringing in an Austrian style immigration system is really important - I am not saying end unskilled immigration, but I defiantly think that it is important to be able to slow it if necessary

I have worked for the EU and know just how little they care about what the ordinary people think. It is a bubble of elites and they genuinely do not give a shit about the little people or what they think. In many ways we disgust them.

It wasn't a vote for the status quo or Brexit, it was a vote for a more powerful EU or Brexit. The Commission and so many people within the EU want a United States of Europe. I do not want to see British Soldiers die under an EU flag, I do not want to be an EU citizen, I do not want to be governed by an unelected Commission in Belgium. I want to be British. I also do not want to be in political Union with Turkey - talks opened last week

I think that the EU is a bad organisation - worse, I think that it is hell bent on not reforming and wants nothing more than more integration and more power. But even setting aside the whole "the EU doesn't work" thing, I have never felt drawn to the idea of a European Superstate. Others on the Leave side will disagree with me but I have never really felt "European" at any point in my life. Culturally I feel much closer to Oz, Canada, America and many Commonwealth countries than I do to Luxembourg or Austria. The only time I ever feel "European" is watching United play in the Champions league - and Israel plays in that!

- if you still think you made the right decision and why

Ask me this question in a decade - it has been a week, other than the guardian moaning a lot nothing has actually happened yet.

- has the past week been as expected

I expected better from the BBC (the website coverage especially has just been pathetic since the rules got relaxed) but I fully expected a pity party from the Pro-EU side of the media.

It is very disappointing to see thousands of people march in London against democracy - but the capital is in a different world than the rest of the country at the best of times.

Our political class are morons - pretty much to a man/woman. With a few notable exceptions I have very little time for most of the politicians on both sides and am not surprised that the country is currently suffering from a famine of leadership and bountiful politicians playing petty games.

- how you expect next few weeks and months to play out.

Tough, with a lot of propaganda in the media from both sides. Brexit will only work with strong leadership - leaving the EU is not going to be "easy" we need a good deal from Europe (they can blab on about not giving us a deal all they like but when it comes down to it countries like the ROI and Germany can't afford to lose thousands of jobs as a result of a petty trade war anymore than the UK can.)

Once we have the EU deal it's time to look to the world. I am not a little Englander but nor am I a little European - we need to do a deal with the EU then look globally, get deals done with Australia, NZ (its a disgrace that we don't have Commonwealth deals already) Canada, America, India, South Korea, Japan ... this is a global world, looking beyond little Europe needs to be more than a campaign slogan.

What I will say is that I believe Brexit will be great for the UK but it is one change - we need many more - starting with bringing in PR for Westminster elections and bringing in an elected senate to replace the House of Lords. I grew up in Northern Ireland which is a mess in so many ways but the way we vote for Assembly elections is light years ahead of England. Say what you like about UKIP, I could type out many pages of criticisms but I think that it is a disgrace than 4 million UKIP voters have one voice in the Westminster and parties with many many less votes have significant representation.

I live in the North of England and so many people feel completely out of touch with even the local MPs never mind the Westminster lot - just look at the some of the areas with incredibly pro EU MPs but 70% of people voting for Brexit - we need politicians that represent the people of the UK, not a tiny group of ex think tank employees and multi millionaires who dread the thought of meeting a constituent.


Do I still believe in Brexit? Yes. Do I believe the out of touch elitist political class are capable of making a good job of it? lol


I think it is a shame that every bad thing that happens in the next ten years, every attack from a racist moron, every shop that closes, every time someone gets a cold - is going to be blamed on Brexit - but I suppose that is the world we live in.


Oh and I am still waiting for the outbreak of WW3 and the promised locusts.

But that's the whole point. You've left something incredibly complicated and near impossible to implement in the hands of a load of people you despise. Meantime the whole country will suffer economically and socially.

And this.https://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/...policy-time-for-the-facts,-time-for-humanity/

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Having read this, I really don't think I'll be able to change your mind as it's clearly been made up before understanding the context of the vote.

It's not that I'm blind to that, the other side of the context is that the EU is heading in the same direction fast and that can't be changed by an election result.

However, I would like to just object to your point that "British people obviously like having a shit press so feck it". Two things in response: how can they know what they want when they've never had anything else? It's been absolute corruption and bile ever since Thatcher abolished the rules governing monopolisation of the press to allow Murdoch control. And I would suggest you think of it as a crack addiction. People love that too, but it doesn't mean it's good for them and it doesn't mean you should allow unregulated distribution of poor quality crack. You wouldn't just give up on a family member who had a crack addiction and say "well they like it and they're not hurting anyone". At least I'd hope you wouldn't.

I would compare it to a junkfood habit, people know it's bad for them, but they like it and indulge in it. The government regulating the press is always a difficult thing, and in the end it's a matter of vote with you pound and vote with your remote. If you keep paying for junk, junk is what you're going to get. And with the internet there are more alternatives than ever. In a way there something very democratic about the media you get.

 

[Tiber]

But that's the whole point. You've left something incredibly complicated and near impossible to implement in the hands of a load of people you despise. Meantime the whole country will suffer economically and socially.

And this.https://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/...policy-time-for-the-facts,-time-for-humanity/

What is just about the only thing more out of touch than project fear? The Green Party inmigration policy.

Unlike the EU i can at least attempt to get rid of thosr people, Lets get some new politicans then. Getting rid of the unaccountable EU is the first of many tough steps that must be taken. Just because a thing is not easy is no reason not to do it.

One of the worst pro EU arguments was "Brexit has never happened before it might not be easy, even if it might be better in the long term we should just play it safe" bloody hell if we took that attirude we would still be living in caves waiting for the dinosaurs to return

 

[Barca84]

Feel absolutely fine about it. Brexit was never going to be an easy process nor was it a decision made for the sake of impacting the first 3 weeks.

The media pant wetting from pro-remain journalists has been utterly pathetic.

- why you voted leave

I wanted to control (not end, control) immigration, get back control of laws, courts etc. I believe that the EU is not un-democratic, but anti-democratic, I hate the impact that it has on many industries such as fishing, farming etc but also not so specialised jobs like security guards ... basically many of the same reasons people have been banging om about really. I could go in depth here but I feel like we all heard the reasons a million times.

Immigration is a big issue for me, I know that some will always portray any concern about immigration as racism but it isn't that - I have watched the impact that uncontrolled immigration has had on local towns and communities, I have seen family members lose income and wages because the vast amounts of cheap labour has made more and more jobs offer the minimum wage. I very much worry about the amount of school places and hospital beds and things like that, it is a cliche I know that, but I think there is also truth. I think that bringing in an Austrian style immigration system is really important - I am not saying end unskilled immigration, but I defiantly think that it is important to be able to slow it if necessary

I have worked for the EU and know just how little they care about what the ordinary people think. It is a bubble of elites and they genuinely do not give a shit about the little people or what they think. In many ways we disgust them.

It wasn't a vote for the status quo or Brexit, it was a vote for a more powerful EU or Brexit. The Commission and so many people within the EU want a United States of Europe. I do not want to see British Soldiers die under an EU flag, I do not want to be an EU citizen, I do not want to be governed by an unelected Commission in Belgium. I want to be British. I also do not want to be in political Union with Turkey - talks opened last week

I think that the EU is a bad organisation - worse, I think that it is hell bent on not reforming and wants nothing more than more integration and more power. But even setting aside the whole "the EU doesn't work" thing, I have never felt drawn to the idea of a European Superstate. Others on the Leave side will disagree with me but I have never really felt "European" at any point in my life. Culturally I feel much closer to Oz, Canada, America and many Commonwealth countries than I do to Luxembourg or Austria. The only time I ever feel "European" is watching United play in the Champions league - and Israel plays in that!

- if you still think you made the right decision and why

Ask me this question in a decade - it has been a week, other than the guardian moaning a lot nothing has actually happened yet.

- has the past week been as expected

I expected better from the BBC (the website coverage especially has just been pathetic since the rules got relaxed) but I fully expected a pity party from the Pro-EU side of the media.

It is very disappointing to see thousands of people march in London against democracy - but the capital is in a different world than the rest of the country at the best of times.

Our political class are morons - pretty much to a man/woman. With a few notable exceptions I have very little time for most of the politicians on both sides and am not surprised that the country is currently suffering from a famine of leadership and bountiful politicians playing petty games.

- how you expect next few weeks and months to play out.

Tough, with a lot of propaganda in the media from both sides. Brexit will only work with strong leadership - leaving the EU is not going to be "easy" we need a good deal from Europe (they can blab on about not giving us a deal all they like but when it comes down to it countries like the ROI and Germany can't afford to lose thousands of jobs as a result of a petty trade war anymore than the UK can.)

Once we have the EU deal it's time to look to the world. I am not a little Englander but nor am I a little European - we need to do a deal with the EU then look globally, get deals done with Australia, NZ (its a disgrace that we don't have Commonwealth deals already) Canada, America, India, South Korea, Japan ... this is a global world, looking beyond little Europe needs to be more than a campaign slogan.

What I will say is that I believe Brexit will be great for the UK but it is one change - we need many more - starting with bringing in PR for Westminster elections and bringing in an elected senate to replace the House of Lords. I grew up in Northern Ireland which is a mess in so many ways but the way we vote for Assembly elections is light years ahead of England. Say what you like about UKIP, I could type out many pages of criticisms but I think that it is a disgrace than 4 million UKIP voters have one voice in the Westminster and parties with many many less votes have significant representation.

I live in the North of England and so many people feel completely out of touch with even the local MPs never mind the Westminster lot - just look at the some of the areas with incredibly pro EU MPs but 70% of people voting for Brexit - we need politicians that represent the people of the UK, not a tiny group of ex think tank employees and multi millionaires who dread the thought of meeting a constituent.


Do I still believe in Brexit? Yes. Do I believe the out of touch elitist political class are capable of making a good job of it? lol


I think it is a shame that every bad thing that happens in the next ten years, every attack from a racist moron, every shop that closes, every time someone gets a cold - is going to be blamed on Brexit - but I suppose that is the world we live in.


Oh and I am still waiting for the outbreak of WW3 and the promised locusts.

Good post sir. Eloquently put and I'm with you all the way.

You've left something incredibly complicated and near impossible to implement in the hands of a load of people you despise. Meantime the whole country will suffer economically and socially.

Vast swathes of the country are suffering "economically and socially" as it is. It's become clear post referendum that a lot of people pro remain simply do not know "how the other half live" or aren't concerned. In the 5th largest economy in the world entire communities live in a collective squalor. Intergenerational unemployment. No hopes or aspirations. Community services slashed. Benefits squeezed. We have a level of inequality here that is shameful and those most marginalised have played their part in what is effectively a vote for change. And part of the reason for that is, for many, things can't really get any worse "economically and socially". They have nothing to lose. In just the last decade the gap between the rich and the poor has only widened.

Whether or not Brexit is a step in the right direction for the above is up for debate but one thing is for sure - being in the EU hasn't been deemed to work for a lot of people so they've taken the country out.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

- why you voted leave

I wanted to control (not end, control) immigration, get back control of laws, courts etc. I believe that the EU is not un-democratic, but anti-democratic, I hate the impact that it has on many industries such as fishing, farming etc but also not so specialised jobs like security guards ... basically many of the same reasons people have been banging om about really. I could go in depth here but I feel like we all heard the reasons a million times.

Immigration is a big issue for me, I know that some will always portray any concern about immigration as racism but it isn't that - I have watched the impact that uncontrolled immigration has had on local towns and communities, I have seen family members lose income and wages because the vast amounts of cheap labour has made more and more jobs offer the minimum wage. I very much worry about the amount of school places and hospital beds and things like that, it is a cliche I know that, but I think there is also truth. I think that bringing in an Australian style immigration system is really important - I am not saying end unskilled immigration, but I defiantly think that it is important to be able to slow it if necessary

I have worked for the EU and know just how little they care about what the ordinary people think. It is a bubble of elites and they genuinely do not give a shit about the little people or what they think. In many ways we disgust them.

It wasn't a vote for the status quo or Brexit, it was a vote for a more powerful EU or Brexit. The Commission and so many people within the EU want a United States of Europe. I do not want to see British Soldiers die under an EU flag, I do not want to be an EU citizen, I do not want to be governed by an unelected Commission in Belgium. I want to be British. I also do not want to be in political Union with Turkey - talks opened last week

I think that the EU is a bad organisation - worse, I think that it is hell bent on not reforming and wants nothing more than more integration and more power. But even setting aside the whole "the EU doesn't work" thing, I have never felt drawn to the idea of a European Superstate. Others on the Leave side will disagree with me but I have never really felt "European" at any point in my life. Culturally I feel much closer to Oz, Canada, America and many Commonwealth countries than I do to Luxembourg or Austria. The only time I ever feel "European" is watching United play in the Champions league - and Israel plays in that!

Not being funny but for a "non-racist/non-xenophobe".... hmmm.

How strange that you feel "closer" to all the white countries that were "seeded" by your ancestors.... coincidence? Do you feel closer to India and Belize too? Strange you missed them off your list.

 

[Tiber]

Not being funny but for a "non-racist/non-xenophobe".... hmmm.

How strange that you feel "closer" to all the white countries that were "seeded" by your ancestors.... coincidence? Do you feel closer to India and Belize too? Strange you missed them off your list.

Charming. Crazy that I feel closer to countries that speak English and have similar culture and outlook to the UK in many ways.

You want to talk about racism? Lets look at the EU system that is happy to let in unskilled workers from Poland or Italy no questions asked but is specifically designed to treat doctors from India or engineers from Zambia as second class immigrants. Outside of the EU applicants will judged on what they offer the UK - not what country they were born in.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Not being funny but for a "non-racist/non-xenophobe".... hmmm.

How strange that you feel "closer" to all the white countries that were "seeded" by your ancestors.... coincidence? Do you feel closer to India and Belize too? Strange you missed them off your list.

But he has a close affinity with Nigeria and Ghana...

 

[Tiber]

Not being funny but for a "non-racist/non-xenophobe".... hmmm.

How strange that you feel "closer" to all the white countries that were "seeded" by your ancestors.... coincidence? Do you feel closer to India and Belize too? Strange you missed them off your list.

Culturally I do feel closer to the US or Australia than India - I will openly admit that I feel culturally they are more similar to the UK than India is.

However I was very pleased to see the State Bank of India declare that Brexit will be good for India and I hope that we can now strengthen our links to such a powerful economy - one that will soon be much more relevant on the world stage than we are

 

[NinjaFletch]

Charming. Crazy that I feel closer to countries that speak English and have similar culture and outlook to the UK in many ways.

You want to talk about racism? Lets look at the EU system that is happy to let in unskilled workers from Poland or Italy no questions asked but is specifically designed to treat doctors from India or engineers from Zambia as second class immigrants. Outside of the EU applicants will judged on what they offer the UK - not what country they were born in.

It's not crazy. But I'd be amazed if you spent any time in any European country (but most specifically Western Europe) and didn't come to the same conclusion about those countries too. Sure, there's some cultural differences, but the most obvious one (language) is far more irrelevant than you'd think when a majority of people speak English. Seriously, live in Germany for a year and tell me that the cultural difference between the UK and Germany is substantially bigger than between the UK or the US or Australia.

 

[Javi]

No not really, it's not just a sector like others, it feeds off people who actually produce or are in other services. A financial sector is necessary to get money from people who have more than they want to spend to people who have less than they want to invest in their company in order to make more money producing what they produce for example. You can't have an economy with let's say 90% consists of the financial sector. And if I need a million to make my company grow I wouldn't pay 12% to the middlemen getting me to that money. Why would that be different for a country as a whole?

The UK is part of a globalised world, so there is no point in just narrowing the view on the UK alone. In theory there is no problem with having an economy that consists of 90% financial services and only 10% industry because they don't just offer their services in said country but in the world (there are of course problems with having a undiversified economy f.e. when the sector is in crisis).

If it's 12% so there really is no problem with that (as long as the country participates in the world market of course) and your comparsion with paying 12% of your earning to the middlemen and the country is downright absurd because there is no connection between the prices for a specific service and it's percentage share of the economy alone.

 

[Javi]

I would compare it to a junkfood habit, people know it's bad for them, but they like it and indulge in it. The government regulating the press is always a difficult thing, and in the end it's a matter of vote with you pound and vote with your remote. If you keep paying for junk, junk is what you're going to get. And with the internet there are more alternatives than ever. In a way there something very democratic about the media you get.

There is nothing difficult about the government implementating anti-monopoly regulation upon the press, it's not like they tell them what to write and whatnot. It ensures a diversified media that is especially important if you rely on them being the 4th power of checks and balances.

Besides, I wouldn't agree that people generally know that it's bad for them. Some undeniably do but there is a significant part that appears to think that the world is in fact that simple.

 

[TwoSheds]

Good post sir. Eloquently put and I'm with you all the way.



Vast swathes of the country are suffering "economically and socially" as it is. It's become clear post referendum that a lot of people pro remain simply do not know "how the other half live" or aren't concerned. In the 5th largest economy in the world entire communities live in a collective squalor. Intergenerational unemployment. No hopes or aspirations. Community services slashed. Benefits squeezed. We have a level of inequality here that is shameful and those most marginalised have played their part in what is effectively a vote for change. And part of the reason for that is, for many, things can't really get any worse "economically and socially". They have nothing to lose. In just the last decade the gap between the rich and the poor has only widened.

Whether or not Brexit is a step in the right direction for the above is up for debate but one thing is for sure - being in the EU hasn't been deemed to work for a lot of people so they've taken the country out.

On the contrary, I think it's clear that you don't understand how much worse it can, and will, get.

 

[Javi]

[...].

So let me get this straight: You are worried about the effects of neoliberalism and the inherent globalisation on local communities but want to exacerbate it by making even more trade deals all over the world - competition is going to increase so those communities will be even worse off. If those workers don't have the skills to make a living when competing with other european nations, how is that going to work out with India?

The part about the EU wanting a United States of Europe is at least unsubstantiated, feel free to back it up with sources but atm I don't even see that discussion happening (and I don't mean in the media).

The infrastructure bit doesn't seem to be related to the EU but the national government so I feel it's not really apt to mention it as why you have voted to leave.

 

[Raees]

A few questions for remainers, out of interest do you think that England has disproportionately in relation to its land mass been affected by mass immigration from Europe, to a point where it is a) unsustainable and b) could it have been done more slowly so the local population could be given time to adapt and not feel as though their entire communities have changed before their very eyes in a rapid amount of time and (c) if other european countries i.e. Poland was receiving alot of immigrants from the UK i.e. 600,000 of us went there a year, would they be as welcoming and would they be as open-minded as the British.

I think these are questions which we are quick to dismiss, as we assume europe is so much more liberal and open minded than the UK.

Also are Fifa and Uefa examples of where centralised power in foreign super-states doesn't really result in more transparency and fairness.

 

[Tiber]

So let me get this straight: You are worried about the effects of neoliberalism and the inherent globalisation on local communities but want to exacerbate it by making even more trade deals all over the world - competition is going to increase so those communities will be even worse off. If those workers don't have the skills to make a living when competing with other european nations, how is that going to work out with India?

The part about the EU wanting a United States of Europe is at least unsubstantiated, feel free to back it up with sources but atm I don't even see that discussion happening (and I don't mean in the media).

The infrastructure bit doesn't seem to be related to the EU but the national government so I feel it's not really apt to mention it as why you have voted to leave.

Quite frankly why I voted Leave isn't up to you.

Trade deals and open door immigration is not the same thing.

Many EU figures as senior Barroso have been perfectly open about wanting to horde ever more power and sovereignty to Brussels. The solution to every problem always seems to be "more Europe" - if you listen to Guy Verhofstadt the only reason we get rain is a lack of EU power.

 

[Stanley Road]

It's not crazy. But I'd be amazed if you spent any time in any European country (but most specifically Western Europe) and didn't come to the same conclusion about those countries too. Sure, there's some cultural differences, but the most obvious one (language) is far more irrelevant than you'd think when a majority of people speak English. Seriously, live in Germany for a year and tell me that the cultural difference between the UK and Germany is substantially bigger than between the UK or the US or Australia.

Lived in Holland 18 years, know Germany well. Big cultural difference I find

 

[devilish]

Quite frankly why I voted Leave isn't up to you.

Trade deals and open door immigration is not the same thing.

Many senior EU figures as senior Barroso have been perfectly open about wanting to horde ever more power and sovereignty to Brussels. The solution to every problem always seems to be "more Europe" - if you listen to Guy Verhofstadt the only reason we get rain is a lack of EU power.

In the single market I am afraid that you can't have one without the other.

 

[Tiber]

In the single market I am afraid that you can't have one without the other.

I wasn't aware that India was in the single market. (this was the point he was making)


But as for the EU, I don't want to be in the single market I want access to it. They say we can't have access without freedom of movement - but people say a lot of things. When the prospect of a trade war with the UK threatens thousands of German car jobs, when Irish companies who export to the UK face bankruptcy and when the Eurozone faces another crisis (on top of the Greek time bomb) I deeply suspect that compromises will be made. The EU needs us as much as we need them

 

[Stanley Road]

Quite frankly why I voted Leave isn't up to you.

Trade deals and open door immigration is not the same thing.

Many EU figures as senior Barroso have been perfectly open about wanting to horde ever more power and sovereignty to Brussels. The solution to every problem always seems to be "more Europe" - if you listen to Guy Verhofstadt the only reason we get rain is a lack of EU power.

The reason for that is the EU and especially the Eurozone, simply wont work unless there is more integration. Until country PM's give up some or all of their power it will remain a crap organisation

 

[Tiber]

The reason for that is the EU and especially the Eurozone, simply wont work unless there is more integration. Until country PM's give up some or all of their power it will remain a crap organisation

The UK dragged our heels on so many EU policies - I worked in the Parliament, they fecking hate us at times.

I genuinely believe that in the long term the split will be healthy for both sides, they can push on with integration if they want (though I suspect we wont be the last to leave if they do) and the UK can go our own ways whilst creating a new relationship with the EU that will probably be much more productive than the one we have had for the last 30 years which has seen two thirds (or more) of the EU pulling one way and the UK and a handful of others pulling the other.

If the Eurozone will do better with closer integration then I wish them well, but I am bloody glad that we wont be part of it.

 

[Mozza]

Charming. Crazy that I feel closer to countries that speak English and have similar culture and outlook to the UK in many ways.

You want to talk about racism? Lets look at the EU system that is happy to let in unskilled workers from Poland or Italy no questions asked but is specifically designed to treat doctors from India or engineers from Zambia as second class immigrants. Outside of the EU applicants will judged on what they offer the UK - not what country they were born in.

The latter is not an EU decision but a UK government one

 

[golden_blunder]

What is just about the only thing more out of touch than project fear? The Green Party inmigration policy.

Unlike the EU i can at least attempt to get rid of thosr people, Lets get some new politicans then. Getting rid of the unaccountable EU is the first of many tough steps that must be taken. Just because a thing is not easy is no reason not to do it.

One of the worst pro EU arguments was "Brexit has never happened before it might not be easy, even if it might be better in the long term we should just play it safe" bloody hell if we took that attirude we would still be living in caves waiting for the dinosaurs to return

its a bit like putting the cart before the horse.

I feel they should have sorted out the government first, got a strong, stable government in place. Then tackle the big issues like EU.

Not the other way round

 

[Javi]

Quite frankly why I voted Leave isn't up to you.

That's obviously true. I was just assessing your reasons and that I think is partly the point of the discussion here.

Trade deals and open door immigration is not the same thing.

Of course it's not the same thing but the competition aspect is coming with both, it's got nothing to do with the single market. How about you address my point about competition that is not exclusive to singel market agreements but also trade deals?

Many EU figures as senior Barroso have been perfectly open about wanting to horde ever more power and sovereignty to Brussels. The solution to every problem always seems to be "more Europe" - if you listen to Guy Verhofstadt the only reason we get rain is a lack of EU power.

Well yes, but that's not the view of the EU as I imagine you understand as well - so nothing more substantied about your point now.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Lived in Holland 18 years, know Germany well. Big cultural difference I find

Big is pushing it. I'm not disputing the fact that there is a cultural difference just thst it's not substantially larger than that between the UK and the US.

Although I'm probably biased because I've lived in Britain for 23 years and I'm still not sure I know what British culture actually is.

It's also probably generational. My experience of Germany and German's largely involves people my own age.

 

[devilish]

I wasn't aware that India was in the single market. (this was the point he was making)


But as for the EU, I don't want to be in the single market I want access to it. They say we can't have access without freedom of movement - but people say a lot of things. When the prospect of a trade war with the UK threatens thousands of German car jobs, when Irish companies who export to the UK face bankruptcy and when the Eurozone faces another crisis (on top of the Greek time bomb) I deeply suspect that compromises will be made. The EU needs us as much as we need them

Just to put things into perspective

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cyCg6QtW9_c/TT1vvDgqUwI/AAAAAAAABGQ/3zMLJX1rYo0/s1600/uk_india_extract.png

Don't take me wrong I can sympathise with nations who think that they are a super power despite being the size of a mouse. I come from one myself.

 

[GloryHunter07]

European Union is the greatest chance the working man has of curbing business power. Individual nations will elect individuals that will race to the bottom to win floating capital. The EU doesn't have to, it can set a standard across 28 nations that businesses can't afford to ignore. European Union, clues in the name

This worries me and we've already seen Osbourne talking about slashing corporation tax in order to appease big business.

 

[M18CTID]

Big is pushing it. I'm not disputing the fact that there is a cultural difference just thst it's not substantially larger than that between the UK and the US.

Although I'm probably biased because I've lived in Britain for 23 years and I'm still not sure I know what British culture actually is.

It's also probably generational. My experience of Germany and German's largely involves people my own age.

FWIW, as a Leave voter I've visited Holland and Germany a fair few times and although I haven't lived in either of those countries like Stanley Road has I do think we have a hell of a lot in common with the citizens of both countries. Certainly on the occasions I've followed City in Europe, football fan culture in Germany is broadly similar to our own. But the people are great in general apart from that. Same with the Dutch.

There will be differences of opinion on this of course but my issues aren't with Europeans in general - I love visiting European cities and sampling the differing cultures, etc - but with the EU which is a completely different entity.

 

[NinjaFletch]

FWIW, as a Leave voter I've visited Holland and Germany a fair few times and although I haven't lived in either of those countries like Stanley Road has I do think we have a hell of a lot in common with the citizens of both countries. Certainly on the occasions I've followed City in Europe, football fan culture in Germany is broadly similar to our own. But the people are great in general apart from that. Same with the Dutch.

There will be differences of opinion on this of course but my issues aren't with Europeans in general - I love visiting European cities and sampling the differing cultures, etc - but with the EU which is a completely different entity.

Exactly. Id liked to see Stanleys reasons for arguing otherwise. I have lived in Germany (although not for any serious length of time) and obviously currently live in the UK and I suspect where I stayed in Germany is the areas he would visit most frequently from Holland (e.g. Nordrhein-Westfalen). So the fact we have such vastly different impressions of the same part of the world is interesting. Perhaps the UK has itself changed more than Stanley realises in the 18 years he has lived overseas?

 

[Tiber]

Just to put things into perspective

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cyCg6QtW9_c/TT1vvDgqUwI/AAAAAAAABGQ/3zMLJX1rYo0/s1600/uk_india_extract.png

Don't take me wrong I can sympathise with nations who think that they are a super power despite being the size of a mouse. I come from one myself.

The UK is smaller that India. What's your point?

Who has said that the UK is a superpower? Lichtenstein and Iceland survive outside the EU, Norway and Switzerland have outright flourished - the UK will be just fine.

 

[devilish]

The UK is smaller that India. What's your point?

Who has said that the UK is a superpower? Lichtenstein survives outside the EU, Norway and Switzerland have outright flourished - the UK will be just fine.

All are part of the EEA and they must therefore accept freedom of movement. Will the Breidiots be happy with that? I much doubt it

 

[Tiber]

I most certainly would not accept any form of freedom of movement. We import rather a lot more from the EU than Iceland and will command a much better deal. I love the little insults tho and suggestions that people who voted leave are deluded and think the UK is a superpower - very mature.

 

[Mozza]

This worries me and we've already seen Osbourne talking about slashing corporation tax in order to appease big business.

Yup. So we cut to match Irelands 12.5%. They cut to 10%, we follow, they react. Are we going to follow them to 0%? Its a daft idea.

Our fearless leavers wish to make trade agreements with India and China. Free trade with nations whos worker protections are non existant, they will crush British businesses unless we sacrifice our employees rights, which the Tories will

 

[GloryHunter07]

Yup. So we cut to match Irelands 12.5%. They cut to 10%, we follow, they react. Are we going to follow them to 0%? Its a daft idea.

Our fearless leavers wish to make trade agreements with India and China. Free trade with nations whos worker protections are non existant, they will crush British businesses unless we sacrifice our employees rights, which the Tories will

And guess who will be paying for these tax cuts?

But dont worry, we've taken back control!

 

[Mozza]

I suspect I have more in common with the average European than I do with the Toffs at the top of the Tory party

 

[Tiber]

The EU does not have to give the UK a trade deal - absolutely not, they could play hardball.

Of course we also import 1/5 of Germany's cars - if that drops significantly due to a petty EU desire to "punish" the UK for leaving and large amounts of German workers get laid off - I am sure that those former VW staff will understand Merkel's political point and loyally stand by the chancellor.

 

[M18CTID]

I suspect I have more in common with the average European than I do with the Toffs at the top of the Tory party

Most of us do mate.

 

[Tiber]

I suspect I have more in common with the average European than I do with the Toffs at the top of the Tory party

So vote them out. Good luck voting out Martin Schulz.

 

[devilish]

The EU does not have to give the UK a trade deal - absolutely not, they could play hardball.

Of course we also import 1/5 of Germany's cars - if that drops significantly due to a petty EU desire to "punish" the UK for leaving and large amounts of German workers get laid off - I am sure that those former VW staff will understand Merkel's political point and loyally stand by the chancellor.

Germans rebuilt their country twice in forty years from scratch. You can say alot of things about these people but they are resilient