Ok, it was Moyes.
Who was worse, Moyes or Van Gaal?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
In terms of entertainment the highlights from Moyes's season were more suited to You've Been Framed than Match of the Day.
Van Gaal, he wasted the clubs money, whiling doing nothing. Had Moyes stayed after his first season, I don't see how he wouldn't have been able to achieve what Van Gaal did.
He lost the dressing room and his position was untenable. Unless he changed the entire squad or at least 60-70% of it which was unlikely and also improved as a manager then i don't see how he was coming 4th the year after. Had Moyes stayed it would have likely been more of the same 6th-8th at best.
But Van Gaal did waste a lot of money foolishly i agree. He was given way too much leeway on transfers in my opinion.
If Di Maria never had that break in, he may have stayed so money not wasted.
We also have to remember he bough Martial who has been a beast. Shaw was phenomenal till injury, Blind a great utility player, Memphis has talent if he can find the right system and stride, Darmian showed glimpses of greatness ..... Schweinsteiger is over the hill and Rojo is well, Rojo, so a bit of wasted money there.
We also have to remember he bough Martial who has been a beast. Shaw was phenomenal till injury, Blind a great utility player, Memphis has talent if he can find the right system and stride, Darmian showed glimpses of greatness ..... Schweinsteiger is over the hill and Rojo is well, Rojo, so a bit of wasted money there.
If he made(which I'm sure he was going to make after that travesty of a season) several big signings that would've changed the teams dynamics and added fresh players who would've lifted morale.
This is like the autism and vaccination debate. OP starts a thread, states his opinion and creates a poll. 86% say nay and 14% say aye. End of thread. Move along.
Like who though mate? Who would have joined to play under Moyes after such a disastrous season?
Kroos was going to Real had Moyes stayed or not. We might have signed Falcao, Di Maria maybe. But both of those players turned out shit for us, so not sure how they would have changed Moyes fortunes.
The players didn't believe in him, the majority of the fans didn't believe in him, the board obviously didn't believe in him. Ergo his position was untenable, even a top coach like Mourinho would struggle to turn a situation like that around if for some reason they stayed in the job. A charisma vacuum like Moyes would have had no chance.
Moyes was done. A second season would have been as disastrous as the first if not more so.
For me Moyes was a total embarrassment but Van Gaal, well he just made me want to tear my eyes out with the football he served up. Maybe it's just because it's still so fresh as last season that my mind still just automatically gets infuriated when I think of the piss poor football we had to endure. So right now it's a choice between embarrassment or sheer anguish, not sure which you would choose.
LVG was a medicine, Moyes was a poison ( with Scottish herpes, the worst kind ).
This is not even debatable Moyes was worse. Moyes turned the PL champions into a mid table team. At least LVG got us into the CL one season and won the fa cup in his second.
In that game it felt if we'd put in another 80 crosses, we'd still not have scored a goal.
Basically, we were out of ideas, so decided to keep using PLAN A, even though PLAN A, just wasn't working.
Yeah that was evident when he brought Januzaj on and spent a few minutes giving him detailed instructions before he came on. I was at the game and thought this is it he's bringing Januzaj on to mix it up and try something different. First time Adnan got on the ball he beat a man and whipped a cross in from the left. Didn't know whether to laugh or cry that was the day i completely gave up hope on Moyes, it was probably the most bizarre game i've ever seen at Old Trafford.
Look to the future la.
Moyes.
With LVG it was boring.
With Moyes it was painful.
With LVG it was boring.
With Moyes it was painful.
Then Van Gaal the old git goes and blames the wind for a 0-2 loss at Stoke! What an absolute bell-end!
This game still fascinates me a great deal when it is brought up. I bet a lot of fans couldn't even name off the top of their head who the Fulham keeper was, how many saves he made, how many shots we had in that game and who scored in what minutes. Yet people regularly remember the 18/82 crosses and attribute it to as Steve says above "One of the most bizarre games ever seen at OT". Of course, there is nothing wrong with holding that opinion. I do believe it was probably one of the most bizarre games ever at Old Trafford as well.
On a similar plane of logic, I'd also make an educated guess that if you did a poll with only who voted for Moyes and asked them if they have gone back and re-watched and analysed that season there would be a similar overwhelming majority "NO." vote. (Which in my opinion is a large reason why people are very quick to snap Moyes off the top of their head as worse, nothing wrong with that of course.)
People probably remember that we got totally boned by Norwich last season 1-2 at home. I'd probably have that game down (as Steve said) "one of the most bizarre games ever seen at OT" as well. Because, of course that game had us connecting on 5/56 crosses. I mean, if 82 crosses is such an abomination then surely 26 less than that figure is also just as blatantly abominable? Right? Then you have a look through the line and see that we only had 2 shots on target the entire game! We couldn't even claim to have had a chance to win the game.. We had 9 shots and only 2 on target with one being the goal!! We averaged 22 crosses per game last season and connected on an average of 3.9 a game. A couple of games we had cross amounts in the 30's and 40's.
It really does fascinate me when I look into some some games from the past three seasons. Across the board just so many avenues of awful from both managers. The difference between how bad each of them are is only a whisker in my view. Even if the overwhelming majority are hell-bent on naming Moyes.
Under LVG
"If we click again today, we will win comfortably"
Under Moyes
"God I hope Januzaj can pull something out of the bag....."
"If we click again today, we will win comfortably"
Under Moyes
"God I hope Januzaj can pull something out of the bag....."
Players will come, this is man united and we have loads of money to throw around. Heck, players like hazard have joined chelsea when they didn't even have a manager. I can't see how anyone can spend the amount of money Van Gaal spent and only manage 4th and 5th place.
I think a lot of the Moyes slating comes from the fact people never wanted him in the first place. The attitude was negative to every single thing he did before the outcome was even known.
With Van Gaal it was the opposite. He only had to say the word "philosophy" and people were hailing him as a genius. People decided he was a success on here before he had even taken the job. Similar to how they decided Moyes was a failure before he even took it.
Example:
Moyes signed Fellaini, and was constantly criticised for using Fellaini to implement "dinosaur tactics" of hoofing the ball up to him. Even though he never actually did this. He played Fellaini in defensive midfield.
Van Gaal used Fellaini to repeatedly implement an ineffective tactic of hoofing the ball to Fellaini, but for some reason this was no longer a "dinosaur tactic" and was instead argued to be a strength of LVG by getting the best out of his players (despite this tactic having a negative effect on just about every player in the team and the team as a whole, and being the EXACT thing people were criticising Moyes for).
Your Norwich/Fulham comparison is another example. There were countless games under LVG where instead of crossing the ball repeatedly, our gameplan was to do absolutely nothing to try and score a goal at all. I found this equally if not more bizarre. When a game against a defensive team reaches 70 minutes and your team haven't had a shot on their goal yet, that is bizarre to me.
One thing I've realised with fans is they don't go by what actually happens. They go by what they've already decided is going to happen, and continue to until the reality is so different from their perception they're forced to change their minds. With Moyes and LVG, whichever way you look at it they were both pretty awful, so the majority of people with pre-conceived ideas that Moyes would be worse than LVG aren't going to change their minds...you can actually make a fairly good argument that they are right not to.
Yes mate now maybe but they didn't really come back then, in this hypothetical scenario where Moyes had stayed for a second season and as you suggest makes a few big signings to achieve 4th like Van Gaal did. But which big players could he have signed that we didn't sign anyway?
As i said Falcao and Di Maria would have probably both been signed even if Moyes had stayed (though to be honest i have my doubts if ADM would have joined with Moyes still here). But in any case neither were any good for us really, ADM didn't want to be in England. Neither would have saved Moyes or got him top 4 in my opinion. Moyes just wasn't and isn't good enough, he was out of his depth.
We weren't really aggressively chasing them though. Sir Alex was doing the whole 'no value in the market' while Moyes thought the squad was better than it was cause he was taking over the defending champions.
Put Lord muppet Ed on a chase and he's getting his man. He'll throw everything at it until the bugger is here.
As for names, take Bayern, PSG, City, Chelsea, Madrid(the ones they like) and Barca players out then almost everyone can be signed by us.
Sanchez, Gundogan, Reus, Insigne, Hummels, Koke, Griezmann, Higuain, Icardi, Kovacic, Isco...you name them, when we throw our weight around(which we used to be reluctant to do) we get moves done.
I don't disagree, the bloke was out of his depth. His biggest mistake was overrating our squad, not realizing that we'd won the title based on some massive individual contributions rather than our whole team being impressive. However I'm not of the belief that if you have him the 200 million quid that Van Gaal had after that season he'd have failed to reach 4th and 5th.
Well agree to disagree then mate, we had the funds to sign anyone yes but we wouldn't have had the manager to attract them. Even with much more renowned and successful manager like Van Gaal we weren't able attract some of the players you mention.
The only way i could see Moyes getting top 4 in a possible second season would be as i already said sell the majority of the squad which clearly didn't believe in him and spend £200-300m on top, top players. Both scenarios were unlikely in my book.
I think the impact of a manager attracting players is overrated. Look at all the names that have gone to PSG in recent years and they haven't had a big name at the helm. Chelsea signed Hazard with no one at the helm. Madrid were signing Ronaldo, Kaka and Benzema with Pellegrini at the helm. We're not getting Pogba cause we have mou, we're getting him cause we had 100million to throw around.
We didn't sign those players cause Van Gaal didn't desperately want them. The ones he did, came. The biggest name that moved that summer came here(dimaria). Its not like we're going to sign everyone, whoever our managers want walk through the door. Jose came with 4 players he wanted, viola, they are all here. At other clubs if you were to hand in to the CEO a list of Bailly, Pogba, Ibra and Mkhitaryan you'd probably be thrown out the building. That's probably 800k a week in wages alone!
At the end of the day, we're still man united no matter who's managing. Players, even big name ones will always be willing to come here if Barca, Bayern and Madrid(only teams in the world of our stature) are not interested. Our prestige and financial prowess counts over everything that's going on. Players and agents aren't stupid, they know managers come and go.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
This cannot be understated enough.
To hell with David Moyes.
To hell with David Moyes.
between a rock and a hard place
LvG winning easily also by creating way better communication with Woodward's department that's currently being improved even more by Mou & Raiola.
The man had some clue in big club mechanics despite being frustrating as hell while Moysey gave us Mata and that's pretty much it.
The man had some clue in big club mechanics despite being frustrating as hell while Moysey gave us Mata and that's pretty much it.
I remember Fulham were bottom of the league and were not given a chance in hell of getting a point (or 3) against us.
I also remember when our plan was not working, but we made no attempt to change the plan.
I also remember this:
Manchester United’s tactics against us were like ‘Conference football’, says Fulham defender Dan Burn
Mate, I am not going to re-watch the Moyes season.
I'd rather shove a cactus up my backside.
Have a read of this, which includes quotes from P.Jones, of what it was like with Moyes as manager.
I can only think that you are a MUFC fan, stirring things up
Ancelotti especially and Blanc are big enough names in my book. Hazard went to Chelsea because of three factors. CL football, London and shit loads of money. We could have offered one of those two years ago i suppose. Madrid are Madrid players will always want to go there, feck knows why but they do.
We've also had that £100m to throw around for 3 years now, Bale, Neymar, Muller, Ronaldo. Bit of a coincidence that we only complete a deal of that level once we have Mourinho.
Indeed mate fair enough.
Ha, exactly. Which is why I'll never give even an inch of a toss for anyone who is talking about that season (how good or bad it was) and categorically states they will never go back and watch or analyse any of it. The opinions of those people mean absolutely nothing to me, no offense to you personally of course. Every fan has their own opinions and I respect that.
It is exactly the point I made above. Give it a few years and LVG will be remembered in the same light (by people who refuse to return to those seasons and watch because of how bad they were and just pluck re-cycled cliches off the top of their head and use them as global argument defining points). It can be applied to many different discussions on the cafe. Youngsters of the club, current and past mediocre and even great players. When people state that they will never go back and analyse and watch certain parts of our history. The Fulham/Norwich example is a great one, nobody is saying much about the 56 crosses against Norwich in a game we actually lost and didn't even have enough shots on target to even win the game.
If ones'self haven't familiarized ones'self with the source material, how can their opinion be taken seriously?
Sorry I don't read goal.com or the english tabloids. You can post the quotes here?Have a read of this, which includes quotes from P.Jones, of what it was like with Moyes as manager.
I can only think that you are a MUFC fan, stirring things up
I also don't get it.. I am an MUFC fan?
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LVG by a country mile , Moyes inherited a team on its way down along with a chief exec who was wep behind the ears in terms of transfer negotiations he was let down badly in the first transfer window , before making slight amends by signing Mata .
LVG ( with the exception of Martial ) bought absolute dross ( one other class player Di Maria who he absolutely destroyed ) ., he bought a bunch of second rate squad players never fit to wear the shirt and them got them to play the worst brand of football I have ever seen from a United team , he was an ignorant , arrogant , self loving dinosaur ! Never before have I celebrated the sacking of a United manager but when LVG was finally fired I celebrated as though we had done the treble again
LVG ( with the exception of Martial ) bought absolute dross ( one other class player Di Maria who he absolutely destroyed ) ., he bought a bunch of second rate squad players never fit to wear the shirt and them got them to play the worst brand of football I have ever seen from a United team , he was an ignorant , arrogant , self loving dinosaur ! Never before have I celebrated the sacking of a United manager but when LVG was finally fired I celebrated as though we had done the treble again
Can we please just put a time limit on these threads and lock them?
As per the vote, it was Moyes by a country mile.
As per the vote, it was Moyes by a country mile.
So Moyes by an 84% landslide then which actually says a lot when you consider we've all had to put up with Van Gaal's depressing brand of football and baffling decisions for twice as long and more recently so it's a lot more fresh in the mind compared to Moyes reign.
can we just lock it and say that we all voted in something and therefore accept the decision.
Or just fecking lose the will to live?
I think people forget just how bad we were under Moyes. Those City and Liverpool games near the end could have run into double figures. LVG needed to go but at least we had a degree of control in games.
Memphis was the one of the highest rated youngsters wanted by PSG, Schneiderlin was also one of the best DMs in the league, darmian was rated as the one of the most talented fullbacks.
Blind was and is an excellent player who plays very well in multiple positions. Shaw and martial were prodigies, Herrera a good midfielder, Romero and valdes were international keepers on a free. Falcao and di Maria had a fame to be world class.
Rojo and Schweini are the only ones you could say weren't highly rated and were bad but most other signings made complete sense. He didn't get the best out of them but doesn't change that they were all sensible signings.
I hope we don't have a thread after two years asking, who was worse, "LVG or Moyes or Jose"
Hopefully more of a in 15 years or so thread: Who was better, SAF or Mou?
I do feel a little dirty for suggesting that. It s almost sacrilegious .
How bout they're both shit?