Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Member 5225]

It's different because this vote just took away a major right from me and other Remain voters, and in four years we don't just get to vote to get that right back. Even if 90% of British people voted to rejoin the EU in 5 years, there is absolutely no guarantee that Europe would allow us back in, and many reasons why they wouldn't have any interest in opening themselves up to all the headaches we cause.

Incidentally I already (like about a million and a half other British citizens) ALREADY live in another European country. But I can't claim French citizenship for at least another 3 years, so if the Tories screw up the exit I could lose my job and be kicked out of my home. So thanks for that.

My point in the quoted post still stands.
I have sympathy with you, but other people have other issues (and perhaps the EU is the cause of theirs).
Simply impossible to pander to everyone's selfish needs.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Canada would want more from a solo deal with the UK than it can get when bargaining with the EU

I don't know if they would or wouldn't, I don't think you know one way or the other either.

 

[Mozza]

That's very honourable, you'd be the most respected homeless person in the UK.

You just said you lost your job 5 times. Retrain and take advantage of the new opportunities on offer because everyone is better off

 

[Kentonio]

I've lost my job about 5 times over the years in Holland, shit happens

If you lost 5 jobs in Holland, then that would suggest losing your job didn't also mean you had to relocate to a completely different country. Did you even lose your home when you lost these jobs?

If I lose a job because of the company failing or something then that's something I can deal with. If I lose a job I love because some fecking idiots in my birth country decide they want to crash their economy and feck me over in the process for no particular reason, then that's a very different story. Especially if I'm not then allowed to even find a new job in the same country.

Britain in 5-10 years time could easily be minus Scotland and possibly Northern Ireland, with a collapsed economy, radically lower worker pay and rights, a semi-privatized and dysfunctional NHS and with a country divided completely in two, hating each other for their vote this past June. I hope it was worth it, because me and a lot of other people will never, ever forget or forgive this if it all goes south.

 

[Mozza]

I don't know if they would or wouldn't, I don't think you know one way or the other either.

Canada is very small compared to the EU, its only a little smaller than the UK. They might be willing to sacrifice a lot to get access to the big market thats the EU, they'll probably be less inclined to do it for the UK

 

[Member 5225]

If you lost 5 jobs in Holland, then that would suggest losing your job didn't also mean you had to relocate to a completely different country. Did you even lose your home when you lost these jobs?

If I lose a job because of the company failing or something then that's something I can deal with. If I lose a job I love because some fecking idiots in my birth country decide they want to crash their economy and feck me over in the process for no particular reason, then that's a very different story. Especially if I'm not then allowed to even find a new job in the same country.

Britain in 5-10 years time could easily be minus Scotland and possibly Northern Ireland, with a collapsed economy, radically lower worker pay and rights, a semi-privatized and dysfunctional NHS and with a country divided completely in two, hating each other for their vote this past June. I hope it was worth it, because me and a lot of other people will never, ever forget or forgive this if it all goes south.

err once again you seem to have your 'me' hat on rather than the 'we' hat on.
selfishly I would love to stay in, get a strong Canadian/£ rate, who cares what happens to the UK (as I'm moving to Canada anyway)
But objectively I genuinely believe the EU is going in the wrong direction and worse, it is forcing nations to follow that path.

Let's try and be objective about this rather than have a 10-15 year outlook for our own selfish little lives (+ with so much anger and revenge talk it's almost scary!)

 

[Stanley Road]

You just said you lost your job 5 times. Retrain and take advantage of the new opportunities on offer because everyone is better off

Lol

They were due to restructures, moving IT to india and such

But your point is valid for the guy in france maybe

 

[Kentonio]

err once again you seem to have your 'me' hat on rather than the 'we' hat on.
selfishly I would love to stay in, get a strong Canadian/£ rate, who cares what happens to the UK (as I'm moving to Canada anyway)
But objectively I genuinely believe the EU is going in the wrong direction and worse, it is forcing nations to follow that path.

Let's try and be objective about this rather than have a 10-15 year outlook for our own selfish little lives (+ with so much anger and revenge talk it's almost scary!)

Oh the 'we' hat? The one where you just handed complete political control of the country to a bunch of hard right conservatives, most of whom are millionaires and several of whom have openly admitted in the past to wanting to privatize the NHS? Oh and if Scotland leave (which you've just make much more likely) you've basically just guaranteed a Tory majority for the foreseeable future.

Anger and revenge talk? Oh you have seen absolutely nothing yet. This wasn't a game or a philosophical exercise to many of us, it was about the futures of ourselves, our families and our friends. Mess with that, and you open a very, very scary can of worms.

 

[Bury Red]

My point in the quoted post still stands.
I have sympathy with you, but other people have other issues (and perhaps the EU is the cause of theirs).
Simply impossible to pander to everyone's selfish needs.

Or perhaps they believe the EU is the cause of their issues because the Mail lies, because the Sun lies, because Boris Johnson made a 20 year career lying about the EU for fun before becoming a joke of a politician. In keeping the working man poor and unhappy UK governments have never shied away from blaming others for their ills, it was the blacks, the Indians and the Irish before we joined the EU, now it's the Romanians, Poles & Hungarians and next it will be the Turks and the Syrians. Our government and big business are happy to have migrants coming in providing cheap labour in illegal conditions and have never given a flying feck for those who genuinely find themselves displaced and struggling to make ends meet as a result. They're equally happy to allow those big companies to dodge paying their tax dues whilst demonising those at the bottom rung of the ladder for scrounging and as a nation a majority/vocal minority somehow sides with this bullshit.

That a majority of my fellow Britains buy into these lies time and time again and let the politicians and the press get away with peddling them sickens me. How can we spend so much on educating our nation and still have so many idiots?

 

[Kentonio]

That a majority of my fellow Britains buy into these lies time and time again and let the politicians and the press get away with peddling them sickens me. How can we spend so much on educating our nation and still have so many idiots?

This. Oh a million times this..

 

[Stanley Road]

If you lost 5 jobs in Holland, then that would suggest losing your job didn't also mean you had to relocate to a completely different country. Did you even lose your home when you lost these jobs?

I also work with serbians, Russians and izraeli's to name but a few. Their passports are not tied to the job, if my company goes tits up then they will look for more work somewhere else and will find it.

You may not like the fact that the uk people have made a decision that may have consequences for yourself but I despise goverments in Europe that could not organise a piss up in a brewery and have, through policies, stifled growth and made it hard for a lot of businesses to prosper.

I also despised the introduction of the euro as I saw a 67% in some of the things I like to spend money, something that was initially denied by german finance ministers but they eventually had to admit it.

So yeah, I hate whole shebang

 

[devilish]

Giving equal weight to voters in England,Scotland,Northern Ireland and Wales in the referendum is really the only reasonable way to show respect to all parts of the UK.

If you say, and Alex Salmond did say, that Scotland should have a veto right on leaving then you are effectively saying the wishes of Scottish voters are ten times as important as the wishes of English voters. Not very democratic if you ask me.


1 England 53,012,456
2 Scotland 5,295,000
3 Wales 3,063,456
4 Northern Ireland 1,810,863

United Kingdom 63,181,775

Not really. Some countries are less populated then others. Its ridiculous that they have to just bow their head and obey because of that. There again democracy works weird in the UK. The third most popular party ended up with just 1 seat in parliament

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Canada is very small compared to the EU, its only a little smaller than the UK. They might be willing to sacrifice a lot to get access to the big market thats the EU, they'll probably be less inclined to do it for the UK

In theory you have a point but in reality the EU will sacrifice terms the UK would have liked in order to buy off some other EU faction. The whole idea that we get great deals because we negotiate jointly is suspect because we don't jointly want the same types of deal and we can't test the reality because we are not allowed to negotiate separately to find out.

When we leave the EU we will find out until then it is all speculation and no one really knows for sure if they are honest about it.

 

[Stanley Road]

They're equally happy to allow those big companies to dodge paying their tax dues whilst demonising those at the bottom rung of the ladder for scrounging and as a nation a majority/vocal minority somehow sides with this bullshit.

This is the very reason there were protests in Germany this week against the Canadian deal, so this is not unique to uk

 

[Stanley Road]

The third most popular party ended up with just 1 seat in parliament

This is something I can agree on, the voting system is awful in the UK

 

[Kentonio]

I also work with serbians, Russians and izraeli's to name but a few. Their passports are not tied to the job, if my company goes tits up then they will look for more work somewhere else and will find it.

You may not like the fact that the uk people have made a decision that may have consequences for yourself but I despise goverments in Europe that could not organise a piss up in a brewery and have, through policies, stifled growth and made it hard for a lot of businesses to prosper.

I also despised the introduction of the euro as I saw a 67% in some of the things I like to spend money, something that was initially denied by german finance ministers but they eventually had to admit it.

So yeah, I hate whole shebang

Cool, so live in (what's going to be left of) Britain, build a big wall around it, and let the rest of us live in a forward thinking Europe while you guys do whatever you want. Problem solved.

 

[Stanley Road]

Canada is very small compared to the EU, its only a little smaller than the UK. They might be willing to sacrifice a lot to get access to the big market thats the EU, they'll probably be less inclined to do it for the UK

They are still prepared to walk away from the deal

 

[Stanley Road]

Cool, so live in (what's going to be left of) Britain, build a big wall around it, and let the rest of us live in a forward thinking Europe while you guys do whatever you want. Problem solved.

You want to stay in Britain so all of your possible suffering will be your own choice

 

[Bury Red]

In theory you have a point but in reality the EU will sacrifice terms the UK would have liked in order to buy off some other EU faction. The whole idea that we get great deals because we negotiate jointly is suspect because we don't jointly want the same types of deal and we can't test the reality because we are not allowed to negotiate separately to find out.

When we leave the EU we will find out until then it is all speculation and no one really knows for sure if they are honest about it.

It is speculation, but it is educated speculation when you consider that the current Tory government was the only part of the EU that refused to block Chinese steel dumping and even provided the Chinese manufacturers with expert guidance on alloying steel with Boron and Copper so that it attracts lower tarifs and makes their dumping easier despite the potential structural risks posed when trying to work with steel with even small fractions of Boron. Our own government sold the last remnants of the (Indian owned) British steel industry down the river with no thought to the 50,000 potential job losses and additional damage to allied industries, hell they even managed to convince numpties like my sister who works in a steel processing company that it was the evil EU what dunnit so that she voted out as did a majority in Port Talbot.

Do I trust this lot to sign deals in our best interest, do I feck. It's their back handers, their future board memberships and their offshore tax avoidance schemes that matter to them.

 

[Kentonio]

You want to stay in Britain so all of your possible suffering will be your own choice

I don't know what this means. I have no interest in living in Britain after what happened in June. If you want the kind of Britain we're turning into now, you're welcome to it.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

If you lost 5 jobs in Holland, then that would suggest losing your job didn't also mean you had to relocate to a completely different country. Did you even lose your home when you lost these jobs?

If I lose a job because of the company failing or something then that's something I can deal with. If I lose a job I love because some fecking idiots in my birth country decide they want to crash their economy and feck me over in the process for no particular reason, then that's a very different story. Especially if I'm not then allowed to even find a new job in the same country.

Britain in 5-10 years time could easily be minus Scotland and possibly Northern Ireland, with a collapsed economy, radically lower worker pay and rights, a semi-privatized and dysfunctional NHS and with a country divided completely in two, hating each other for their vote this past June. I hope it was worth it, because me and a lot of other people will never, ever forget or forgive this if it all goes south.

You can't really complain about the referendum as an mechanism for leaving the EU when it was the mechanism for joining. You wouldn't be where you are if the referendum's were not allowed to over ride the rights of those who voted to stay out of the EEC.

Joining wasn't cost free to many sectors of the UK economy at the time, so it is swings and roundabouts.

 

[Kentonio]

You can't really complain about the referendum as an mechanism for leaving the EU when it was the mechanism for joining. You wouldn't be where you are if the referendum's were not allowed to over ride the rights of those who voted to stay out of the EEC.

Joining wasn't cost free to many sectors of the UK economy at the time, so it is swings and roundabouts.

Perhaps if there was a clear and coherent economic benefit to this madness then I wouldn't be so angry. If it was 'well this 50% of people will be better off' then I could at least understand it and would probably accept it as democracy at work. But there isn't an economic benefit to this, this is wildly destructive with a vague "well we'll trade more with with some unspecified countries!" stuck on top like an articial cherry sitting on top of a turd.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Not really. Some countries are less populated then others. Its ridiculous that they have to just bow their head and obey because of that. There again democracy works weird in the UK. The third most popular party ended up with just 1 seat in parliament

And yet if the votes in Scotland and England had the UK staying in the EU over say the vote in Wales (who voted to leave) about that you would have said nothing.

We joined the EEC on the authority of a referendum with one person one vote for the whole UK. You can't really argue that we shouldn't be able to leave on the same basis, you have to hold on to some principles even if the vote goes against you.

 

[C.M.P]

Not really. Some countries are less populated then others. Its ridiculous that they have to just bow their head and obey because of that. There again democracy works weird in the UK. The third most popular party ended up with just 1 seat in parliament

What if that country only has a population of 70k, the really small countries don't matter do they, they just need to suck it up for the great good, right?

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Perhaps if there was a clear and coherent economic benefit to this madness then I wouldn't be so angry. If it was 'well this 50% of people will be better off' then I could at least understand it and would probably accept it as democracy at work. But there isn't an economic benefit to this, this is wildly destructive with a vague "well we'll trade more with with some unspecified countries!" stuck on top like an articial cherry sitting on top of a turd.

Thats your view and I voted remain so on balance I shared your opinion. I don't disrespect those who voted the other way though they might well have the right of it in the end.

You are probably worrying unduly as I suspect the rights of those who have already moved will be respected and if those rights are not respected it will be because the EU decide to make an issue of it not the UK which has stated that as long as the rights of UK citizens living in the EU are respected so will the rights of EU citizens already living in the UK.

 

[Kentonio]

You are probably worrying unduly as I suspect the rights of those who have already moved will be respected and if those rights are not respected it will be because the EU decide to make an issue of it not the UK which has stated that as long as the rights of UK citizens living in the EU are respected so will the rights of EU citizens already living in the UK.

You mean the UK who just a day or two ago refused to guarantee that EU nationals in the UK would have their rights respected, describing is as an 'aspiration' of the government? Seems like a lot of trust to put in a bunch who are managing to arse up everything else they touch.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

What defines an Englishman or a Brit? Just a place where you were born and the culture you were brought up in.

I was born in England but have no almost no affinity to England at all. Was born in the wrong country but managed to escape.

Seems I am possibly the oldest fart in the thread

 

[Classical Mechanic]

What defines an Englishman or a Brit? Just a place where you were born and the culture you were brought up in.

I was born in England but have no almost no affinity to England at all. Was born in the wrong country but managed to escape.

Seems I am possibly the oldest fart in the thread

A Frenchman born in an Englishman's body. A terrible state of affairs.

 

[Stanley Road]

have openly admitted in the past to wanting to privatize the NHS

It's the only way to turn it around, it's so badly run it's an embarrassment compared to healthcare in western Europe.

Did you ever see that program called "saving the nhs" or something similar? This businessman queried why the 2 theatres persormed no operations on a Friday yet there was still a waiting list. He then had to convince 4 managers of something, employed just for employments sake, that there should be surgery on a Friday, the resistance he got from 1 or 2 managers was mind blowing.

That's the EU that is, in a nutshell. He manged to get operations on a Friday and guess what, the Queue went down and the surgeons were much happier. He was running it like one would run a business and it worked. at the moment its run like a charity that haemorrhage's cash all over the place.

I believe when the uk talk of privatisation in the nhs they really mean outsourcing, and that's completely different

 

[Stanley Road]

I don't know what this means. I have no interest in living in Britain after what happened in June. If you want the kind of Britain we're turning into now, you're welcome to it.

Well if you're going to leave then why worry about it

 

[Kentonio]

It's the only way to turn it around, it's so badly run it's an embarrassment compared to healthcare in western Europe.

Did you ever see that program called "saving the nhs" or something similar? This businessman queried why the 2 theatres persormed no operations on a Friday yet there was still a waiting list. He then had to convince 4 managers of something, employed just for employments sake, that there should be surgery on a Friday, the resistance he got from 1 or 2 managers was mind blowing.

That's the EU that is, in a nutshell. He manged to get operations on a Friday and guess what, the Queue went down and the surgeons were much happier. He was running it like one would run a business and it worked. at the moment its run like a charity that haemorrhage's cash all over the place.

I believe when the uk talk of privatisation in the nhs they really mean outsourcing, and that's completely different

There is a massive, and I mean massive difference between managing the system better and privatizing it. If you want to make it run better, I'm all on board with it, but if you want to privatize it you're my ideological enemy and I'll treat you like anyone else who supports leading us to a position where thousands of people a year will die unnecessary deaths. Because that's what privatizing healthcare does. In the US around 30,000 human beings die each year unnecessarily because they can't afford doctors visits or treatment, and I'm damned if I'll let that be my family members or friends.

 

[Kentonio]

Well if you're going to leave then why worry about it

I already left, I told you. Unfortunately most of my family and friends don't have that luxury though.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

You mean the UK who just a day or two ago refused to guarantee that EU nationals in the UK would have their rights respected, describing is as an 'aspiration' of the government? Seems like a lot of trust to put in a bunch who are managing to arse up everything else they touch.

If the EU demand UK repatriation for UK citizens then the UK govt will demand reciprocity. It is the fact that they won't state otherwise which is your biggest support in this regard. If your position becomes untenable it will be because of EU action not the UK govt's stance. We can't clear up the point until article 50 is triggered. That is the EU's position otherwise we could clear this non trade matter up pretty quickly.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

It's the only way to turn it around, it's so badly run it's an embarrassment compared to healthcare in western Europe.

Did you ever see that program called "saving the nhs" or something similar? This businessman queried why the 2 theatres persormed no operations on a Friday yet there was still a waiting list. He then had to convince 4 managers of something, employed just for employments sake, that there should be surgery on a Friday, the resistance he got from 1 or 2 managers was mind blowing.

That's the EU that is, in a nutshell. He manged to get operations on a Friday and guess what, the Queue went down and the surgeons were much happier. He was running it like one would run a business and it worked. at the moment its run like a charity that haemorrhage's cash all over the place.

I believe when the uk talk of privatisation in the nhs they really mean outsourcing, and that's completely different

If you are thinking about the Gerry Robinson program I think it was the surgeons who resisted that particular change, I might be wrong though as it was a long time ago.

 

[Stanley Road]

There is a massive, and I mean massive difference between managing the system better and privatizing it. If you want to make it run better, I'm all on board with it, but if you want to privatize it you're my ideological enemy and I'll treat you like anyone else who supports leading us to a position where thousands of people a year will die unnecessary deaths. Because that's what privatizing healthcare does. In the US around 30,000 human beings die each year unnecessarily because they can't afford doctors visits or treatment, and I'm damned if I'll let that be my family members or friends.

We have a 50/50 system here and I find the service and the hospitals amazing, never waited for anything and I have received treatment in 1 year that far outweighed my private contribution. It's saddens me to think of the shithole my mum died in in bath, terrible.

 

[Stanley Road]

If you are thinking about the Gerry Robinson program I think it was the surgeons who resisted that particular change, I might be wrong though as it was a long time ago.

Surgeons were delighted they didn't have to do paperwork / golf on a Friday. I will never forget those mangers

It was like they were resisting it cos it gave them power and it wasn't their idea.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well if you're going to leave then why worry about it

The same reason you're worrying about it

 

[Kentonio]

We have a 50/50 system here and I find the service and the hospitals amazing, never waited for anything and I have received treatment in 1 year that far outweighed my private contribution. It's saddens me to think of the shithole my mum died in in bath, terrible.

This is what I don't get though, why does an experience within the system of it failing means we should get rid of the entire system? If people want to run the NHS like a business, then why not just tie management contracts and bonuses to performance, and sack people when they underperform? Why do you need a profit margin involved to treat it like a business, when you can just attach different KPI's? As soon as a for profit element is included in healthcare then you're syphoning off funds and raising costs above where they need to be.

 

[PedroMendez]

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/...-in-the-uk-are-among-the-strongest-in-europe/

Xenophobia Britannica? Anti-immigrant attitudes in the UK are among the strongest in Europe

Instead of just imposing immigration controls if the government wishes to do so, we now hear a flurry of xenophobic policy proposals which are ironically unlikely to have any noticeable effect on immigration flows. There were suggestions that companies would be ‘named and shamed’ for hiring foreigners. Other ideas included preventing the government from seeking advice from non-UK citizens about Brexit-related matters, presumably for ‘security’ reasons. Immigrants should not, we are told, “take jobs British people could do”.

These proposals are economically illiterate as they implicitly accept the lump of labour fallacy that there is a fixed quantity of jobs in the economy. They are also clearly nationalist insofar as they posit work should be shared first and foremost among ‘deserving’ natives, that we must identify and count foreigners, and that both companies and the government should not rely on foreigners to advise or work for them, at least in some instances. The question remains, however, whether these policy proposals and this obsession with immigration represent the preferences of the wider population? Or put differently, is it the case that the UK is noticeably more sceptical of immigration than other European countries?

(...)

The survey data reveals that the UK has among the highest anti-immigrant survey responses, especially within Western Europe. These results suggest that recent policy proposals tap into widespread anti-immigration sentiment, which may, of course, have been created by the media and political discourse that has been framing the issue so negatively for a long time now.

At the same time, the problem seems to be not just about whether immigration should or should not be restricted, and if so how, but more importantly about how to promote a more facts-based discussion of immigration. The fact of the matter is that a large part of the electorate has now wholeheartedly embraced anti-immigration attitudes.

 

[Sweet Square]

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/...-in-the-uk-are-among-the-strongest-in-europe/

No surprise, only have to look at the tv and newspapers in this country.