What they wanted was clear but when we voiced it we were told off for bullying the sensitive flowers by pointing out what lies behind much of the anti-immigrant sentiment. What they voted for however was not clear, it was Stay or Leave, no discussion on the form, shape or colour of the door whatsoever so how people can now claim it is clear what Brexit meant is beyond me. Brexit meant 100 different things to 100 different people and the lack of any clarity is why we have the clusterfeck we are now in.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
like i said the leave campaign wanted " leave the EU, take control of our borders and make our own laws."
Phew. That should solve everything.
Nutter
like i said i agree their was no clarity, their was no way forward layed out about how we move forward after the vote.....
in all honesty their should of been an adult discussion going into this, time spent listening to peoples on both sides worries, the stay campaign should of set out a clear way they would tackle peoples concerns going forward and the leave campaign should set our a clear agenda for how things would go if they won.
But none of that happened we hurtled 100 miles an hour into this referendum and then acted like a country of children pointing fingers calling names .... it was disgusting and we deserve this mess!
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It is making our own laws, in this countries legal framework, that has caused all the kerfuffle in the last 24 hours. Appealing for sovereignty and then complaining about that process of sovereignty being enacted is a microcosm for this whole situation.
The perfect riposte, kind of sad how apt the lyrics are though.
The fascist regime, they've made you a moron.
No future.
If you allow me the leave campaign wanted "To leave the EU because they wanted take back control of your borders and make your own laws". And the absence of link between the EU and the whishes of the leavers make the mandate unclear.
yes becuase as long as the queen is safe we will have "victories, happy and glorious" ..... duh!
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The root problem now is that the referendum is forcing parliament to carry out a policy which the majority of MPs don't want, and which the PM actually campaigned against.
The best way forward would be for the conservative party to decide it's policy on the EU, as it should have done in the first place, and then hold a general election on that basis. A new government of whatever hue or composition would then have what we currently lack, both the mandate and the political will at the same time to carry out their elected policy.
Then again, the tories got us into this shit, it might be expecting too much for them to get us out of it too.
The best way forward would be for the conservative party to decide it's policy on the EU, as it should have done in the first place, and then hold a general election on that basis. A new government of whatever hue or composition would then have what we currently lack, both the mandate and the political will at the same time to carry out their elected policy.
Then again, the tories got us into this shit, it might be expecting too much for them to get us out of it too.
Huh? the EU cant stop us leaving, making our own laws and controlling our own borders.... where it becomes messy is if you want to deal with the EU you have to accept some of their laws and terms.... and we financially need to deal with the EU.
so the Mandate was very clear... what was never made clear was how they intended to achieve that mandate while keeping the country prosperous..... hence this mess
Its such a shame that there's no opposition to the Tory party at the moment.
I'm sorry, I don't understand your post.
The UK dont deal with the EU, they are member of it, they are member of the EU executive, they participated to the creation of the laws and terms that you define as "their" the UK are included in the "their".
The Uk never lost control of their borders and they make their own laws, so the mandate is already achieved.
I have yet to see a coherent argument why Leavers wanted to leave
i was speaking as if we left the EU but still wanted trade relationships.
Unsurprisingly the papers you'd expect to lose their shit did.
[/spoiler
Those papers 'didnt lose their shit', they are continuing to push Murdoch's agenda for influence over UK affairs, as they have been doing for years now.
I have a cunning plan, how do we get staunch Labour voters to vote for the Tory party in the 2015 General Election .....
Don't worry, we'll easily win the election, destroy the Labour Party but there won't be enough people voting to Leave to worry about , it's all under control. ..... ooops
Control.
Worth noting that the majority of leave voters, both by numbers and percentage of the leave vote within the party, were Tories.
The only foreigner we need kicking out of the UK to improve the place.
This is even getting too much for some Tories.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...lips-resigns-over-undemocratic-brexit-process
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...lips-resigns-over-undemocratic-brexit-process
It's even worse then, because the EU doesn't control the borders of EU members let alone non-EU members and doesn't make laws for anyone since every EU directives are checked and approved by each government through the EU council and eventually the EU parliament.
So you are left with leave the EU and nothing else, so @Bury Red is right. It was a straight and vanilla choice between "Leave" and "Remain", without particular reason or even superficial plan.
@Nytram Shakes
I'd like to add on JP's post that not only can directive and regulation draft texts be commented on by every Peter, Paul and Mary; you can observe who voted which way on VoteWatch.org, e.g. http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-parliament-latest-votes.html .
Some British people may be surprised to discover how their MP voted in the Council or their representatives in the European Parliament.
I'd like to add on JP's post that not only can directive and regulation draft texts be commented on by every Peter, Paul and Mary; you can observe who voted which way on VoteWatch.org, e.g. http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-european-parliament-latest-votes.html .
Some British people may be surprised to discover how their MP voted in the Council or their representatives in the European Parliament.
i don't really get what you want me to say? Britain currently has no legal right to stop anyone who wants to come an live here from the EU, and can't change that unless the EU agrees to change it, so weather your in favour of free movement or against it saying it currently has control of its borders isn't true.
But i agree it was a straight vanilla choice, and completely agree that they way forward should of been set out in advance of the referendum....... but that doesn't change the reason why people voted out which was very obviously " leave the EU, take control of our borders and make our own laws." whether you agree with that, or agree it was necessary thats why people voted out and that was clearly what the mandate was.
True but I know a lot of people in the UK who are lifelong Labour voters but also voted Leave
you seem to think im arguing people are right to think we need to control all our laws from parliament..... i don't, i personally think for the most part the Brussels does a better job then westminster...... but me feeling that doesn't change the fact that alot of people disagree and want all our laws decided in this country and that combined with the obvious unhappiness with free movement lead people to vote out.
Im not debating whether that vote was right or wrong, and i 100% agree that the way the vote was handled was stupid with no plan to go forward, but that still doesn't change the fact that the obvious mandate was to leave the EU control our borders and write all our laws in this county.
Right, but that people wrongly assume(d) that the EU imposes laws now without the UKs voice and won't do once they are out is cringeworthy; unless your ties will be even looser than the ones between the EU and Switzerland, and even Switzerland had to accept freedom of movement of people.
My point by posting the link is that a) the EU is much more transparent than Leavers portray it and b) that it was often Cameron or other British MPs and/or British Tory MEPs who voted against policies that e.g would have protected working rights, something which is conveniently ignored by fairy tale tellers; it would undermine the fiction that all evil comes from the EU.
The problem for me is that your politicians decided to make FoM looks as it looks today, they could have vetoed it, they could have proposed a different type of FoM but they didn't because there is nothing wrong with the current rule. They also could have not signed the Lisbon Treaty, no one forced them to do that.
And it needs to be remembered that FoM only really works when the immigrant finds a job that allows him to live in good conditions since they can be expelled otherwise, so only immigrants who are able to finance their own existence and are actively making the UK richer, have the right to stay.
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Honestly I just think wer trying to nip pick issues with the result ..... people voted they way they did because they wanted control of immigration and all our laws made in the country.
I'd agree with you that the EU isn't as the evil empire that a lot of the leave campaigners portrayed, but neither is is the shinning beacon of hope that some of the stay campaigners portrayed. same with the supporters of both campaigners, people, both sides resorted to name calling frankly both sides acting likes utter scum and I think anyone who thinks one side acted better thenin this debate is looking at their side with rose tinted glasses!
But like I say I agree with you that the EUparliament has done a lot of good (and I personally trust them more with most things then I do our own parliament) ....... and the good they have done was pointed out again and again during the campaign ..... but frankly people didnt give a shit..... because any fool going into this campaign should of realised a slogan of vote remain to save your workers rights and jobs was going to be laughed out of the park with current treatment of the working glass ..... they answered very clearly "what rights I'm on a zero hour contract so hardly have a job, now what are you going to do about immigration so their is less competition for jobs" to which the remain campaign had no answer and so lost.
Now whether you agree with that point of view doesn't matter that's what happened. Nip picking won't change anything unfortunately where in this mess..... and their is no easy way out.
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Unsurprisingly the papers you'd expect to lose their shit did.
[/spoiler
Well that's helpful.
they could of vetoed it but they didn't ...... and what happened at the referendum was people saying we don't agree with that decision.
Was watching a programme a few months ago where an EU immigrant, with a wife and baby, went to the council for help with housing because they couldn't afford their rent. The woman dealing with them found out they were entitled to claim £1200 a month in benefits. Doubt they were actively making the UK richer.
Which groups of immigrants are Leavers expecting to be able to turn away post Brexit that they couldn't before?
That's the choice of the UK, they can expell people in that case. Belgium have been criticized by human right activist for doing it quite massively.
Yet every study has found that overall they bring in considerably more money to the economy than they cost. So why does an occasional exception hurt anyone, when the overall picture is overwhelmingly positive?
Scottish people when they leave the UK?
I'm not aware that I said it was hurting anyone. It was a response to a post that implied we expelled EU immigrants if they couldn't finance their own existence.