As I said before, Cameron didn't think he'd lose the referendum, he did because not only did Tory voters vote for Brexit but a large portion of Labour voters did as well. Brexit was more about age and education than party politics
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As I said before, Cameron didn't think he'd lose the referendum, he did because not only did Tory voters vote for Brexit but a large portion of Labour voters did as well. Brexit was more about age and education than party politics
I don't disagree but what would have happened if Cameron didn't hold a referendum or give a chance to hold a referendum
It doesn't take me long, it's been bubbling just under the surface since June anyway and what better is there to do? I'd only be finishing a draft proposal for the reduction of water loss on Goa's irrigation canals if I weren't procrastinating in here anyway.
You're big enough and ugly enough to stand toe to toe with the scum when they take to the streets Stan. As Edmund Burke put it: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".
It's more like a burglar blaming the homeowner for leaving their door unlocked. Yes it was stupid on their part but the burglar is still responsible for whatever got stolen.
I don't think Stan is diverting anything, a few months ago I asked him why he was for Brexit and his answer was that it was better to try a brexit than do nothing.(He can correct me if I misunderstood)
His position is the reason why, I was against a referendum, I have seen to many elections where people can't see past their anger and will answer to a different question than the one they were asked. Voters are stupid and very often it's best to not even bother to ask them a question because not only they don't understand it but they don't even want to understand it.
In France, we did it for the EU constitution referendum, people voted against Chirac instead of for or against the constitution, fortunately we knew that only the parliament opinion was important.
Nothing, I guess. People would have been at home moaning about Cameron and Stan would have been boring his wife to death with the sad state of politics and the absence of change.
It's one thing for you to blame Cameron for giving angry and confused people the opportunity to make a poor decision. It's another thing when the angry and confused people themselves start blaming Cameron for giving them the opportunity to make a poor decision.
"It's Cameron's fault for giving me a vote. Once he did I really had no choice but to pick the worst possible option available to me and then demand the government follow through on it. Blame him."
Nothing, I guess. People would have been at home moaning about Cameron and Stan would have been boring his wife to death with the sad state of politics and the absence of change.
Probably, if the UK leave there will certainly be a change, but usually if you want a change , you would want a change for the better
It wouldn't have been a very large percentage of them voting brexit if it was the same as voting for Hitler. Which it wasn't. Which is why they mostly voted leave.
We can't find any route to Brexit without triggering A50 first.
Not necessarily, I worked for a political party(UDI) and people only wants promises and simple straight convictions. They don't care about pragmatism, they don't care about common sense and they don't want honesty.
They are after catch phrases, finger pointing and easy deluded solutions. As long as it sounds nice, they are behind it.
I think you're deliberately missing the point now.
Not this, as the Conservatives would have been bitterly divided, like Corbyn's Labour and they wouldn't be in govt.
Yes, that's what's happened, there is definitely a total lack of common sense.
Quite possibly, what do you think the government would look like if there hadn't been the promise of a referendum?
I honestly don't know but I think a bigger chunk of the Parliamentary Conservative party would have left for UKIP.
As the UK lurches further and further to the right
I have a question for people who probably, or may, know more about this than i do.
Should the UK go for a soft-brexit (so to speak) with continued acces to the single market, and continued free moment of people, then what exactly is the point of leaving? My understanding is that to continue access to the single market, we must allow free movement, and we must all still contribute to the EU and follow their laws, all whilst having no say in anything. What exactly would be the point in voting leave, just to be told by the EU what you can and can't do, whilst also paying them £x a week? Surely thats pretty much what we have now and we do have say in things??
Of course, as i say, my knowledge of this is pretty low but it makes no sense at all?
Should the UK go for a soft-brexit (so to speak) with continued acces to the single market, and continued free moment of people, then what exactly is the point of leaving? My understanding is that to continue access to the single market, we must allow free movement, and we must all still contribute to the EU and follow their laws, all whilst having no say in anything. What exactly would be the point in voting leave, just to be told by the EU what you can and can't do, whilst also paying them £x a week? Surely thats pretty much what we have now and we do have say in things??
Of course, as i say, my knowledge of this is pretty low but it makes no sense at all?
Your last 5 words sums it up perfectly.
Hard Brexit = hard economic times ahead.
Soft Brexit = what was the point
Don't forget the loss of the rebate too. As Bury said, hard Brexit= very damaging/took our country back (depending on your view).
Soft Brexit= as you were, but worse off/unacceptable, not what people voted for.
Bad or worse, take your pick.
If we were to go for a Soft Brexit, then in my opinion, we may as well just remain in the EU.
If we were still under some form of control by the EU and remaining in the single market, would we be able to make our own trade deals with other countries? Could we remain in the single market and form a trade deal with the US, Australia, China etc?
A soft Brexit makes no sense, no agreement will make the context better than it currently is. A hard Brexit on the other hand could be a success for the country because in theory, the UK could lower the cost of manpower and also create a proper tax heaven at the door of Europe but I'm not sure if the people who voted for Brexit will like it because only the people already rich will benefit from that.
I might be wrong though.
Exactly, but it didn't stop Boris, Gove, Duncan Smith and others banging on about the Norway and Switzerland models for future EU collaboration. It's why there's now Tory MPs standing down because they were pro Brexit but not pro Hard Brexit. If those MPs were misled then what chance did the voters stand, it really should have been made clear that Soft Brexit would change virtually nothing from what we already had but would most likely cost us more and leave us with no say in the EU rules whilst a Hard Brexit has the potential to wreck the UK economy. Even if it required 3 boxes on the ballot, it would have at least left parliament with a clearer view of the national mood to enable them to take the best course of action now.
No ref, no exit. You cant argue beyond that, its pointless
Tell that to the insurance company
The Uk would be better off staying in the EU than a soft Brexit as it would cost less and you'd still have voting powers inthe EU parliament . The Uk can still stay in the EU, it's not legally binding until Article 50 triggered.
Trying to do a deal with any other country once the UK have left will take a very long time and theoretically the UK can't start negotiating separate deals until they have actually left the EU which at earliest will be 2019 but probably more like 2020- then years of negotiations - what happens in the meantime, no-one knows
Yes but it was obvious those promoting Brexit did not have a clue what they were going on about, only appealing to people's bigotry and wishful thinking.
Now the people in charge of negotiating don't have a clue either.
You can, no-one forced the people to vote for Brexit
So if I gave you a car, and you decided to drive it straight into a brick wall, it's my fault
Question: Isn't Corbin the biggest labour figure and also anti EU? So, the labour could have organized the ref too?
Absolutely right, Bury. It seems that everyone was misled (on both sides) - some through lack of detail, some through downright lies (the extra money to the NHS myth, for example). I'm quite confident that a lot of people who voted "leave" thought that we would all definitely be financially better-off (both individually and collectively), that somehow all the people from Europe who carry out important and/or essential work here would disappear overnight and be immediately replaced by all those highly-qualified and desperate-to-work British people whom they'd kept out of a job and that we could keep all our little British quirks and foibles intact. Now it appears that it's none of the above, except the quirks and foibles.
No-one in any position of authority or influence actually broke it down in language people could understand, for the purposes of comparing the known position of status quo with the unknown position of splendid isolation. No-one presented an option of "stay but renegotiate on immigration" or whatever was really bothering people.
Next time British people take their annual holiday in Spain or Italy or France they'll start seeing what it's going to mean in practice, at least for their wallets. We've already seen it whilst we've been in Italy for the last 2 months, and we've not even started the Brexit process yet.
If you don't give me a car at all........
BTW, I don't drive, never have done, good analogy
This hasn't happened so why is it under discussion?
No tory gvt hasn't happened either but you still discussed it...
I cant quite remember what I said to the exact word but yes, something different than plodding along is correct. I also despise various heads of state in the EU and Claude( I can help you avoid paying tax )Junker makes me sick.
I do also remember saying that I'd like to push Wolfgang Schäuble down the stairs in his wheelchair.
Nothing, I guess. People would have been at home moaning about Cameron and Stan would have been boring his wife to death with the sad state of politics and the absence of change.
You're not far off the mark
couple of nights ago Jean-Claude Junk was on the news and I commented "I hate that bloke, he's a total cnut"
Yes she said, you've mentioned it a 1000 times
What do people think a post-Brexit Europe would look like ? Will it be our ambition to become "Greater Albania" ? If we get an easy ride, will others opt for the same ? Will the EU be finished as a project if we become the country to emulate ? If we hard-Brexit, won't it be in our interest to undermine the rump EU ? Would we promote discord ? Could a fractious stalemate ensue, with hyper-nationalist third & fourth parties gaining ground all over the continent ? What would Putin's course of action be, if so ?
Once we're out the planned European military pact, which we've vetoed so far, will get the go ahead. Germany re-arming ? That sounds problematic or are we going to hand Europe over to Germany ? That would drastically change our foreign policy of the last 300 years or so.
Ferdinand Mount, not exactly a swivel-eyed revolutionary, talks about "Brexosis". Of people who would rather be out even if it meant prolonged stagnation and turmoil for the nation. In footballing terms, they might be compared to Millwall fans - "No one likes us, we don't care". Millwall are in the old third division.
Once we're out the planned European military pact, which we've vetoed so far, will get the go ahead. Germany re-arming ? That sounds problematic or are we going to hand Europe over to Germany ? That would drastically change our foreign policy of the last 300 years or so.
Ferdinand Mount, not exactly a swivel-eyed revolutionary, talks about "Brexosis". Of people who would rather be out even if it meant prolonged stagnation and turmoil for the nation. In footballing terms, they might be compared to Millwall fans - "No one likes us, we don't care". Millwall are in the old third division.
Hard to know whether you could ever really understand that the brexit underclass are more interested in getting a home to live in in the UK and a chance of a decent paying job than whether they can afford a fortnight in Tuscany but please carry on with the nature of your terrible woes post brexit.
This is the exact issue in the UK which caused brexit the disconnect between their reality and yours and people like you who with the best of will have absolutely no idea about how they live.