Trump and Brexit: What has happened to the world?

horsechoker said:
Isn't Trump part of the self interested establishment? At least he was upfront about it, I'll give him that.
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More a beneficiary of it but yes, and I think in many ways it played into his favour.

"I exploited tax loopholes to protect my businesses. Hillary Clinton protects these loopholes because of all the other rich folk like me who benefit from the pay to play she offers. These are the only people she works for. "

I actually think that was one of his only strong lines of argument in the debates, definitely one of the most effective for winning over blue collar workers.
 
Mozza said:
It's people who should be voting left to change the economic system who have had their anger misdirected and are voting right
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Pretty much.

I think there's a few things going on here. There's this section of society that you speak about which are angry at the status quo. They're continually shafted, they live in areas with high unemployment, see large groups of foreign migrants moving in and egged on by right wing media they look think there are simple answers to complex problems.

Then there's an older generation who let's be honest are old enough to remember black people not being allowed to vote. It's too much change for them to take in such a short period of time. They don't like being told what to say and think and this in some ways is them voting to turn back the clock.

I think the sleeping giant has been awakened and these people (particularly the first group) have come out (for this and the EU referendum) to vote in numbers that nobody predicted not helped by a younger generation who haven't been engaged or motivated to vote either way.

I called Brexit because I could feel the mood in the country. This one is more of a head scratcher though as despite everything he's promised I still struggle to understand the logic in voting in a billionaire proud that he has managed to avoid taxes and expecting him to give a damn about the likes of Cletus in Bumfeck Arizona. What a woefully misjudged campaign from the Democrats too though. They've got to accept that they made a massive mistake pushing Hillary over Bernie. That can't have helped. It's just sad when in a supposed democracy people are forced into voting for the lesser of 2 evils.

What I hope from all of this is that there is some real political change of the back of these 2 monumental events. I've never known a world as divided as it is now, literally across households in many places. Perhaps we need to go backwards before we can all move forwards. I don't know.
 
Then you've got anomalies like this goon at work. Pro Brexit, Pro Trump, Pro Britain First, Anti anything with any culture in it (including yoghurts) revelling in the fact that he's now been given a green light to air his bile.

But the anomaly isn't his opinion it's the fact that he doesn't really have anything to be angry about. He's in a job that pays far better than he could ever dream of and he's pushing 40 and still lives at home with his parents taking the last few days of work to play the new Call of Duty. I can only assume his anger comes from never having felt the touch of a woman.
 
Swaters16 said:
The fact that people like you automatically assume and label people that disagree with you are stupid or racist.
That's a huge part of your answer. People are sick of being told what to think and who they should be by people who believe they're better than them.
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This!
 
The nominated parties of the left that the working class, poor and vulnerable should be voting for are no longer the same parties. The Blairs and the Clintons of the world coopted that space over 20 years ago. The Naders, (briefly) Lib Dems, Greens don't have the base to enact any real longterm change.
 
dumbo said:
The nominated parties of the left that the working class, poor and vulnerable should be voting for are no longer the same parties. The Blairs and the Clintons of the world coopted that space over 20 years ago. The Naders, (briefly) Lib Dems, Greens don't have the base to enact any real longterm change.
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I hope we see the left try to back the working class now.
 
sullydnl said:
I'm arrogant for asking why Brexit and Trump have come about? Yeah, makes sense.
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No you are ignorrant because you think that people who thinks differently as you are stupid.
Democracy, equality and freedom of speech is all about different opinions and different people but when conservative people express their opinion they are to often called stupid by liberals. I often ask myself how the people who "should" support equality and freedom of speech even more then any other act so intolerant to other opinions from people who think differently.
 
Abizzz said:
Yeah, they both decided to defend the status quo vs. some vague hopeful dream of the future... really hard to win it if you frame it like that.
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In a lot of cases it wasn't even the status quo. In the run up to the Brexit referendum I saw many Remainers criticise the EU and predict things will get worse if their side won, they just thought it would get even worse, and quicker, if Britain left. I knew the Democrats were in real trouble when I began seeing their voters make the same arguments: 'Yes Clinton will be a very bad president but Trump will be even worse.'

If it's really hard to defend the status quo then it's basically impossible to win with the lesser of two evils.
 
Jerch said:
No you are ignorrant because you think that people who thinks differently as you are stupid.
Democracy, equality and freedom of speech is all about different opinions and different people but when conservative people express their opinion they are to often called stupid by liberals. I often ask myself how the people who "should" support equality and freedom of speech even more then any other act so intolerant to other opinions from people who think differently.
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You don't seem to understand the concept of freedom of speech. True freedom of speech means that people should be free to express any opinion, even stupid or racist ones. Equally, people should be free to call out a stupid or racist opinion when they hear one.
 
Jerch said:
No you are ignorrant because you think that people who thinks differently as you are stupid.
Democracy, equality and freedom of speech is all about different opinions and different people but when conservative people express their opinion they are to often called stupid by liberals. I often ask myself how the people who "should" support equality and freedom of speech even more then any other act so intolerant to other opinions from people who think differently.
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No, democracy is respecting the other person's vote, not his opinion. Having freedom of speech does not mean that one can't disagree with what somebody else has said. Lets call a spade a spade here, much of Trump's campaign and the Vote leave campaign was simplistic nonsense. The fact that loads of people are sold on nonsense does not somehow magically make it reality.
 
Sorry but anyone who thinks racism, sexism, bigotry in general doesn't have anything to do with Trump winning tonight is deluded.

Dismissing that idea is ridiculous. You only need to listen to the things he says and the the reasons his supporters voted for him.
 
Agree with Bill Maher .People are stupid. I've always been about people power .But they have been so dumbed down and disconnected from politics .I don't think they are informed enough to make a decision.
 
Swaters16 said:
The fact that people like you automatically assume and label people that disagree with you are stupid or racist.
That's a huge part of your answer. People are sick of being told what to think and who they should be by people who believe they're better than them.
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This. The aggression with which the liberal establishment and media has labelled anyone who disagrees with them as stupid/racist/whatever has just hardened people's views and pushed them underground.

Those actions have also made it so easy for the right to turn anyone who wasn't sure which way to go.
 
People are fed up for a multitude of reasons, they know something isn't right with the people in power but they don't really know what, so when the first populist knocks at their doors and brings a bag of culprit and solutions they back him because he doesn't look like his fellow politicians. He is the same though, just far less competent.
 
So people are angry that they are not allowed to be freely racist, homophobic, sexist etc now because they will get called out for it more than in previous times?

I mean, I understand that sometimes the left does go too far (but instances like that are usually very minor), but oh well.

Some of these reasons don't even make sense. The middle case voting for Trump because he can apparently help the ones being left behind financially. Did he even ever layout his economic policies, besides making sweeping comments, but never getting into specifics?
 
11101 said:
This. The aggression with which the liberal establishment and media has labelled anyone who disagrees with them as stupid/racist/whatever has just hardened people's views and pushed them underground.

Those actions have also made it so easy for the right to turn anyone who wasn't sure which way to go.
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That sucks. Now about you shut the feck up?!
Aghhhhh
 
Red-Man-Walking said:
South Park nailed it as usual with the whole Memberberry thing, people looking backwards and wanting to turn the clock back due to some misguided rose-tinted nostalgia of what their country once was, when in so many ways things are far better now.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fiiiiiiiiine...
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Oh, I 'member!

It's absolute genius.
 
Seveneric said:
So people are angry that they are not allowed to be freely racist, homophobic, sexist etc now because they will get called out for it more than in previous times?

I mean, I understand that sometimes the left does go too far (but instances like that are usually very minor), but oh well.

Some of these reasons don't even make sense. The middle case voting for Trump because he can apparently help the ones being left behind financially. Did he even ever layout his economic policies, besides making sweeping comments, but never getting into specifics?
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You can't call them these things, they are apparently "fed up" of it.
 
Swaters16 said:
The fact that people like you automatically assume and label people that disagree with you are stupid or racist.
That's a huge part of your answer. People are sick of being told what to think and who they should be by people who believe they're better than them.
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Good post

Also the bias in the media during the whole campaign has been shocking.

They go out and find the worst Trump fans they possibly can and put them in front of a camera and mock them basically for peoples amusement.

I hope people in the media especially have learnt a valuable lesson
 
11101 said:
This. The aggression with which the liberal establishment and media has labelled anyone who disagrees with them as stupid/racist/whatever has just hardened people's views and pushed them underground.

Those actions have also made it so easy for the right to turn anyone who wasn't sure which way to go.
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So basically just let this behaviour go unchecked? Yeah that doesnt sound eerily familiar at all does it?
 
This election is low paid workers finally fighting back against the elites that have taken them from granted for too long.



Oh wait. No it wasn't. It was racism.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Good post

Also the bias in the media during the whole campaign has been shocking.

They go out and find the worst Trump fans they possibly can and put them in front of a camera and mock them basically for peoples amusement.

I hope people in the media especially have learnt a valuable lesson
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Hold on a second, the media consistently give him the majority of air time from the primaries onwards and constantly focused on the emails during the last two weeks.
 
vi1lain said:
Sorry but anyone who thinks racism, sexism, bigotry in general doesn't have anything to do with Trump winning tonight is deluded.

Dismissing that idea is ridiculous. You only need to listen to the things he says and the the reasons his supporters voted for him.
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This...Mainly this...

People saying that it was all to give a middle finger to the establishment, maybe its true to an extent... But why would they vote for a person in the same mould who reeks of "establishment" and in addition is a tax-dodging, misogynistic xenophobe???
 
Ramshock said:
can we start a Trump Impeach/Assassination attempt watch thread?
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I'm sure most of those with the guns support Trump, if he was anti-second Amendment I'd be worried for him. I'd put money on him to be impeached though, even with a Republican House I think there's a good chance they'd impeach him.
 
Seveneric said:
So people are angry that they are not allowed to be freely racist, homophobic, sexist etc now because they will get called out for it more than in previous times?

I mean, I understand that sometimes the left does go too far (but instances like that are usually very minor), but oh well.

Some of these reasons don't even make sense. The middle case voting for Trump because he can apparently help the ones being left behind financially. Did he even ever layout his economic policies, besides making sweeping comments, but never getting into specifics?
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In an attempt to prove that it's unfair to label them as stupid and racist, the American public has voted for the most stupid and racist president in the history of their country.

That'll show 'em...
 
Ramshock said:
Hold on a second, the media consistently give him the majority of air time from the primaries onwards and constantly focused on the emails during the last two weeks.
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Well her emails was big news

Just because it came to nothing, They cant exactly ignore it

But the general tone throughout hasnt even been close to even.
 
Jerch said:
No you are ignorrant because you think that people who thinks differently as you are stupid.
Democracy, equality and freedom of speech is all about different opinions and different people but when conservative people express their opinion they are to often called stupid by liberals. I often ask myself how the people who "should" support equality and freedom of speech even more then any other act so intolerant to other opinions from people who think differently.
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Except I didn't say that people who think differently to me are stupid, though I'm starting to think some of you can't read:

sullydnl said:
I didn't assume and label people as stupid and racist. I've been posting away in the Brexit threads arguing against the depiction of Leavers as mindless racists. I even fecking bolded the part of the OP that said I didn't want people to throw out those simplistic answers.
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sullydnl said:
No. I said I don't just mean people are stupid and racist. Don't. I put that part in bold. I followed it up by pointing out that there have always been racist and stupid people, which means that people being racist and stupid doesn't explain this. I then asked where this regressive surge had come from, indicating that I wasn't blaming it on racism and stupidity

How you read that as me blaming stupid and racist people, I have no idea.
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sullydnl said:
I think Trump and Brexit are regressive. I also think racism is regressive. That doesn't mean I blame racism for Trump and Brexit. Similarly, I think eating shit off the floor is regressive. That doesn't mean blame it for Trump/Brexit either.

I even put the stupid/racist arguments in quotation marks, to indicate that they weren't my arguments.

You can't seriously not be getting this.
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sullydnl said:
Argggh. :lol:

Okay. The sky is blue. My shoes are blue. That doesn't mean I blame my shoes for the sky being blue. So if I say "why is the sky blue? Don't tell me it's because of my shoes", that's a sign that I'm not blaming my damn shoes!

Understand? The fact that racism is regressive doesn't mean I blame it for the regressive surge. I've explicitly stated that over several posts. I've bolded those statements. I've put those statements in italics. I've just used an analogy based on the colour of my shoes. I literally don't know how you're not understanding this.
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Also, freedom of speech means that people get to call each other stupid.

Unfortunately that can lead to pretty weak debate, which is why I specifically mentioned in the op that I wasn't interested in the "they're stupid" argument. At which point you and the other genius accuse me of calling them stupid. Which, funnily enough, is actually stupid.
 
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