Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
You don't like foreign people do you?

I do, the more the merrier.

I think therein lies the problem, and why people like the brexit/trump voters have ultimately won out. It's all well and good trying to see a big picture, and reading government statistics and all that, but there's a lot of people who feel genuinely affected by immigration and all it brings.

Calling racism is not the answer, education is. IMO.
 
Are you sure you're looking forward with hope for 2017?

Well, a lot will depend on you folks in April/May. I don´t even want to think what might happen if Le Pen wins the presidential election. With her views on the EU and the partnership with Germany, it might be the beginning of the end of the Union.
 
Well, a lot will depend on you folks in April/May. I don´t even want to think what might happen if Le Pen wins the presidential election. With her views on the EU and the partnership with Germany, it might be the beginning of the end of the Union.

That hopefully will not happen. But in this crazy world we have currently anything seems possible.
 
I think therein lies the problem, and why people like the brexit/trump voters have ultimately won out. It's all well and good trying to see a big picture, and reading government statistics and all that, but there's a lot of people who feel genuinely affected by immigration and all it brings.

Calling racism is not the answer, education is. IMO.

How do you educate people who read and believe the lies printed by the Mail, Sun, Express and Telegraph?
How do you educate people who admit they are tired of listening to experts, of being told what they are allowed to say and think by people with higher qualifications?
How do you educate people who flatly refuse to acknowledge the facts when they are staring them in the face?

I know the left love a bit of self flagellation and like to feel that they're in some way to blame but I can't buy this crap that we're hearing from the Brexiteers and Trump supporters. If you don't call out racism and fascism where you see it then you are complicit to it's success. That it is clearly in the majority now is a worrying sign that education has already failed a great many people.

Yes, there's people who have a right to feel left behind, disenfranchised and abandoned by the well to do, the political elite and yes, the educated. But the simple fact is that they have been seduced by the same old lies about immigrants and foreigners that the far right have trotted out for centuries when it's generally the more centre right, capitalist parties that have favoured business over workers, allowed jobs to be outsourced, wages depressed and protections removed. The old left, the unionists and yes, the EU tried in vain to protect jobs and workers' rights and all the while the workers believed the promises of prosperity for all in a capitalist utopia and repeatedly reelected the very people who were worsening their lives.

To be honest, beyond the sarcastic notion of IQ testing for voters, I can't actually see an answer. Let's face it, the right wing have always had the better PR, the snappier dressers and the bulk of the media backing them. The only chance the left or the liberals have of touching power is either playing lapdog to the tories in a coalition or by becoming them as Blair did, old labour is just too scruffy, too school teachery and too pinko for the brainwashed electorate to vote for these days and has makes it worse by tearing itself apart in a frenzy of self loathing and self blame every time they are rejected.

Let's face it Brexit was deemed impossible even by Farage and Johnson only for them to be surprised they got away with it, Trump stood no chance. Wilders is looking a shoo in in Holland, France could be ready for Le Pen or will it take one more act of terrorism, Merkl could find one more New Years Eve gropeathon too much and cede to the hard right whilst Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and others on the East of Europe edge ever closer to Putin. Yet still anyone suggesting the West is sliding inexorably into fascism is told that they are scare mongering or that they are the ones responsible for the success of these demagogues. We're fecked, but I'm damned if I'm going to start blaming myself for it.
 
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Well, a lot will depend on you folks in April/May. I don´t even want to think what might happen if Le Pen wins the presidential election. With her views on the EU and the partnership with Germany, it might be the beginning of the end of the Union.
Actually her odds are 7/4... co certainly within the kind of brexit / trump ranges
I have come to the conclusion we are starting to devolve as a species
 

"to do so would put us against the majority will of the British people and on the side of certain corporate elites, who have always had the British people at the back of the queue."

"While Labour supported remaining in the EU to protect workers’ rights, we cannot hide from the fact that too much of the EU also had aspects of the old model, putting the interests of big business over ordinary people,"

Tells you all that need to know what Corbyn and his cronies really think of the EU.
 
Who thought it was going to be any different ? There seems to be a percentage of people who are still hoping the result will be over turned, it's not going to happen.
"to do so would put us against the majority will of the British people and on the side of certain corporate elites, who have always had the British people at the back of the queue."

"While Labour supported remaining in the EU to protect workers’ rights, we cannot hide from the fact that too much of the EU also had aspects of the old model, putting the interests of big business over ordinary people,"

Tells you all that need to know what Corbyn and his cronies really think of the EU.

I think it was pretty clear during the campaign, the views of Corbyn - He doesn't really like the EU. Not sure why some our surprised now.
 
"to do so would put us against the majority will of the British people and on the side of certain corporate elites, who have always had the British people at the back of the queue."

"While Labour supported remaining in the EU to protect workers’ rights, we cannot hide from the fact that too much of the EU also had aspects of the old model, putting the interests of big business over ordinary people,"

Tells you all that need to know what Corbyn and his cronies really think of the EU.

so a majority of labour party members vote for corbyn and his supporters say the whole party has to back that decision even if all polling shows he is actually pretty unpopular with labour voters in general and incredibly unpopular in the general electorate

yet when it comes to backing something that a majority of labour supporters (and members) voted for i.e. staying in the EU its time to switch sides...

on the plus side it can only hasten the inevitable split
 
I'm currently leaning towards a colony on another planet and leaving this place to the feck-tards.
Yeah i'm beginning to understand how sailing across an ocean in a tiny wooden vessel, for the slight chance that they might find land at the other end, was a viable option to the pilgrims.
 
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Let's face it Brexit was deemed impossible even by Farage and Johnson only for them to be surprised they got away with it, Trump stood no chance. Wilders is looking a shoo in in Holland, France could be ready for Le Pen or will it take one more act of terrorism, Merkl could find one more New Years Eve gropeathon too much and cede to the hard right whilst Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and others on the East of Europe edge ever closer to Putin. Yet still anyone suggesting the West is sliding inexorably into fascism is told that they are scare mongering or that they are the ones responsible for the success of these demagogues. We're fecked, but I'm damned if I'm going to start blaming myself for it
No-one will form a coalition with Wilders, they have said so already. So even if he gets the most votes the Govt will be formed from all the other parties, a proper mish mash.

I do however think the reason for the sudden rise to the top from people like him is simply the failure of the ignorant norm. The governments have had years to get the people onside and crazily think austerity and cutbacks is the way to go. So you get 'Anyone But Them' voters.

If they really and I mean really could not see this happening, then they should not be in charge. As PM of any country you are there to serve the people, easy peasy, what do the people want? What do the people feel? Are the people happy with their lot? No? ok you can have a double dose of the same. I mean c'mon, its not hard to see.

"The EU must reform" we hear from several bigwigs. Ok when? How? Whats the time scale? Why haven't you done this earlier. Ignorance pure ignorance. They don't listen, they've never listened, they don't care and they just don't know how. This is what you want right?
 
The Greens are not happy with Corbyn's Labour bending over for May.

Caroline
Lucas

'Labour’s premature capitulation on article 50 leaves those of us who oppose a hard Brexit in a weaker position.

As a result, we now have less power to persuade the government to give us proper details on their plans ahead of a vote.

Though we should not seek to overturn the result of the referendum, it is down to us as MPs to look closely at the deal on the table before throwing our support behind the government’s plans.

A small majority of people voted to leave the EU, but without any clear plan of what such a vote would mean.'
 
His official Twitter at the time said quite different.
Really ? He held a position a lot of people on the left had which was stay and reform, during the campaign he talked about how the EU needing to be reformed and that how he hasn’t been it's biggest fan in the past. What Mcdonnell said today shouldn’t come as a surprise.
 
Really ? He held a position a lot of people on the left had which was stay and reform, during the campaign he talked about how the EU needing to be reformed and that how he hasn’t been it's biggest fan in the past. What Mcdonnell said today shouldn’t come as a surprise.

It doesn't surprise me as I always knew that his heart wasn't in it and that he probably voted Leave. I'm sure some of his new members are very pro EU though and were not aware that he is anti EU.
 
I think this is basically correct

 
This was an amusing Corbyn moment. Asked if he was ready for a snap election by ITN and his aide shut down the reporter accusing them of harassment.



Does he even want to be heard?
 
This was an amusing Corbyn moment. Asked if he was ready for a snap election by ITN and his aide shut down the reporter accusing them of harassment.



Does he even want to be heard?


Saw that on HIGNFY, can't believe he ran away, Labour are fecked.
 
You don't like foreign people do you?

I do, the more the merrier.

What on Earth gave you that impression? Because i don't believe that EU immigration should be without limit? My suggestion that we should be considering all non-residents on as even a basis as possible? Or that the UK should have accepted more asylum seekers from Iraq/Syria?

Your seeming policy of open borders however,i am not ashamed tos say that i oppose.
 
How do you educate people who read and believe the lies printed by the Mail, Sun, Express and Telegraph?
How do you educate people who admit they are tired of listening to experts, of being told what they are allowed to say and think by people with higher qualifications?
How do you educate people who flatly refuse to acknowledge the facts when they are staring them in the face?

I know the left love a bit of self flagellation and like to feel that they're in some way to blame but I can't buy this crap that we're hearing from the Brexiteers and Trump supporters. If you don't call out racism and fascism where you see it then you are complicit to it's success. That it is clearly in the majority now is a worrying sign that education has already failed a great many people.

Yes, there's people who have a right to feel left behind, disenfranchised and abandoned by the well to do, the political elite and yes, the educated. But the simple fact is that they have been seduced by the same old lies about immigrants and foreigners that the far right have trotted out for centuries when it's generally the more centre right, capitalist parties that have favoured business over workers, allowed jobs to be outsourced, wages depressed and protections removed. The old left, the unionists and yes, the EU tried in vain to protect jobs and workers' rights and all the while the workers believed the promises of prosperity for all in a capitalist utopia and repeatedly reelected the very people who were worsening their lives.

To be honest, beyond the sarcastic notion of IQ testing for voters, I can't actually see an answer. Let's face it, the right wing have always had the better PR, the snappier dressers and the bulk of the media backing them. The only chance the left or the liberals have of touching power is either playing lapdog to the tories in a coalition or by becoming them as Blair did, old labour is just too scruffy, too school teachery and too pinko for the brainwashed electorate to vote for these days and has makes it worse by tearing itself apart in a frenzy of self loathing and self blame every time they are rejected.

Let's face it Brexit was deemed impossible even by Farage and Johnson only for them to be surprised they got away with it, Trump stood no chance. Wilders is looking a shoo in in Holland, France could be ready for Le Pen or will it take one more act of terrorism, Merkl could find one more New Years Eve gropeathon too much and cede to the hard right whilst Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and others on the East of Europe edge ever closer to Putin. Yet still anyone suggesting the West is sliding inexorably into fascism is told that they are scare mongering or that they are the ones responsible for the success of these demagogues. We're fecked, but I'm damned if I'm going to start blaming myself for it.

I don't disagree. But whatever we've tried, we've failed at it seems.

I don't think we should keep going down the same path is all. It seems utterly pointless to me to keep making the same mistakes over and over, the people have spoken and it's the failure to realise the issues that matter to them which seems to be the problem. Look at the last election over here, Labour made serious mistakes that cost them what should have been a real chance of getting back in with austerity and all that, but instead of reflecting on the actual mistakes (ignoring the general public feeling of the time) and trying to change that, they just descended into chaos with the blame game.

You can call people racist and thick and all that all you like, but in the days of social media and all that, those people are organised enough to actually make a difference and really do seem to be tired of the blanket statements like that. I don't think it's particularly Liberal to realise the mistakes and try to change them, after all the Remain campaign was shockingly shit and over in America Hillary seemed to go down a similar route. Reflection is needed, not blame, or things will only get worse.


I know, it's like banging our heads against a brick wall. But what else do we do? Give up? I don't want to be stuck with the same government for the next 20-odd years, considering they've just been given all the power to boot by the very people who should want them not to have it. It's a mess, but one we'll have to live with if we keep on with the same old routine.
 

"It was never a founding principle of the European Union. It's a complete myth. Total myth."

Well, thank god for clearing that up, Johnson...

And here I thought that the "four freedoms" (people, goods, money, services) were one of the core ideas and goals of the Rome treaty in 1957, which established the EEC, the root of the European Union.
 
How do you educate people who read and believe the lies printed by the Mail, Sun, Express and Telegraph?
How do you educate people who admit they are tired of listening to experts, of being told what they are allowed to say and think by people with higher qualifications?
How do you educate people who flatly refuse to acknowledge the facts when they are staring them in the face?

I know the left love a bit of self flagellation and like to feel that they're in some way to blame but I can't buy this crap that we're hearing from the Brexiteers and Trump supporters. If you don't call out racism and fascism where you see it then you are complicit to it's success. That it is clearly in the majority now is a worrying sign that education has already failed a great many people.

Yes, there's people who have a right to feel left behind, disenfranchised and abandoned by the well to do, the political elite and yes, the educated. But the simple fact is that they have been seduced by the same old lies about immigrants and foreigners that the far right have trotted out for centuries when it's generally the more centre right, capitalist parties that have favoured business over workers, allowed jobs to be outsourced, wages depressed and protections removed. The old left, the unionists and yes, the EU tried in vain to protect jobs and workers' rights and all the while the workers believed the promises of prosperity for all in a capitalist utopia and repeatedly reelected the very people who were worsening their lives.

To be honest, beyond the sarcastic notion of IQ testing for voters, I can't actually see an answer. Let's face it, the right wing have always had the better PR, the snappier dressers and the bulk of the media backing them. The only chance the left or the liberals have of touching power is either playing lapdog to the tories in a coalition or by becoming them as Blair did, old labour is just too scruffy, too school teachery and too pinko for the brainwashed electorate to vote for these days and has makes it worse by tearing itself apart in a frenzy of self loathing and self blame every time they are rejected.

Let's face it Brexit was deemed impossible even by Farage and Johnson only for them to be surprised they got away with it, Trump stood no chance. Wilders is looking a shoo in in Holland, France could be ready for Le Pen or will it take one more act of terrorism, Merkl could find one more New Years Eve gropeathon too much and cede to the hard right whilst Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria and others on the East of Europe edge ever closer to Putin. Yet still anyone suggesting the West is sliding inexorably into fascism is told that they are scare mongering or that they are the ones responsible for the success of these demagogues. We're fecked, but I'm damned if I'm going to start blaming myself for it.
The lurch to the far right is making many traditionally right-leaning voters, like myself, uncomfortable. I would actually welcome a strong left to rein in the right.
The left, for me, has gone too far left and is too driven by ideology, not factoring in the fact that it too has to reel in its excesses to win the mass vote.
 
I don't agree that fascism and racism are now in the majority. The majority of people who voted Leave, or Trump, are neither of these things.

The major problem is really a weak centre. Moderate leadership for years and years has failed to improve things for a large slice of people and has caused them to look to something different. Some looked left, more looked right. The right is winning, marginally, because it is bolstered by ageing voters who think all types of left-leaning politics don't work.

We have to hope that people come to realise that extreme positions always get diluted and rarely amount to anything. Real change will have to be global and will take time.
 
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She said

Were we to make an exception for the free movement of people with Britain, this would mean we would endanger principles of the whole internal market in the European Union, because everyone else will then want these exceptions,” Merkel told a meeting of the German employers’ association BDA.

Merkel said that if, for example, someone came to Germany from eastern Europe and worked only for a short time but acquired a lifelong claim on welfare benefits, “then I see a question about which we must talk again. Free movement applies to me in the sense that the employee himself earns the money he needs for himself and his family in the other member state.”

-
Basically its the same welfare benefit argument which was brought forward by Merkel during the negotiations with Cameron.
 
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She said

Were we to make an exception for the free movement of people with Britain, this would mean we would endanger principles of the whole internal market in the European Union, because everyone else will then want these exceptions,” Merkel told a meeting of the German employers’ association BDA.

Merkel said that if, for example, someone came to Germany from eastern Europe and worked only for a short time but acquired a lifelong claim on welfare benefits, “then I see a question about which we must talk again. Free movement applies to me in the sense that the employee himself earns the money he needs for himself and his family in the other member state.”

-
Basically its the same welfare benefit argument which was brought forward by Merkel during the negotiations with Cameron.

It is hope that we can stay in the single market whilst pacifying the right in this country.
 
It is hope that we can stay in the single market whilst pacifying the right in this country.

I think that freedom of movement need to be tweaked. For example I find it ridiculous that people are allowed to send the money from welfare benefits from one country to another. If someone’s family is not in the UK then he shouldn’t have access to the UK children allowance. Also its ridiculous that people are allowed to commit crime hopping. If let’s say, an EU national is caught pickpocketing in London, then that guy should barred from using his freedom of movement for X amount of years. That would require a European crime database to be set and maintained. There again I doubt many would complain too much about it.

There again, it’s equally ridiculous for any country to expect unrestricted access to the single market while keeping the people residing there at an arm’s length. It’s like saying that its ok for the UK to have unrestricted access to their money and markets but they don’t want anything to do with those who actually own and generate that wealth. If that’s the path the UK wants to go to, then it should aim for a trade deal instead, which would probably severely restrict the access to the single market but will allow the UK to make the controls it wants.

The UK is spoiled of choices. There's EU membership, EEA membership, the custom union, the Swiss model, the Turkish model (ie no EU/EEA membership but access to the custom union) and a trade deal. What the EU seems not too keen about is cherry picking from these deals
 
I think that freedom of movement need to be tweaked. For example I find it ridiculous that people are allowed to send the money from welfare benefits from one country to another. If someone’s family is not in the UK then he shouldn’t have access to the UK children allowance. Also its ridiculous that people are allowed to commit crime hopping. If let’s say, an EU national is caught pickpocketing in London, then that guy should barred from using his freedom of movement for X amount of years. That would require a European crime database to be set and maintained. There again I doubt many would complain too much about it.

The ability to easily deport convicted criminals and ban them from reentry would go a long way to pacifying the Brexit bunch.
 
This made me chuckle... Italy's Economic Development Minister on his recent meeting with Boris...

Carlo Calenda said:
He basically said, "I don’t want free movement of people but I want the single market,” said Calenda. I said, "no way." He said, "you’ll sell less prosecco." I said, "OK, you’ll sell less fish and chips, but I’ll sell less prosecco to one country and you’ll sell less to 27 countries." Putting things on this level is a bit insulting.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...cy-chaos-is-unacceptable-italy-s-calenda-says
 
At some point brexiteers will have to sell the lies with which they've deluded themselves to other EU countries. It'll be a hard sell.