Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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Mozza said:
There is nothing in this article that suggests our working rights will be protected once we are out of the EU. Given the Tories track record removing the floor that is EU standards is something to be worried about
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We have a recent post about workers rights in the uk and you are still in the eu
 
Paul the Wolf said:
So we have
Immigrants cost the UK money - they don't
We want the UK to be great again - but we don't know what great means - other than the size which is what it actually means
We don't want EU laws - because we want peculiar sized and shaped fruit and vegetables

And we don't care if the economy tanks because it will all be worth it.

No I don't understand
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You won't, because when you can be assed to read up on these supposed problems with EU membership - and that involves avoiding the bias of the newspapers like a plague in doing so - aside from them having been predictably exaggerated, it invariably brings you back to the question of whether or not they can be improved as a non-EU nation, to which there simply doesn't appear to be substantial answers. That's been one of the biggest problems all along.

It's hardly a revelation that facts and informed opinions are ignored at the expense of preconceptions and vague rhetoric, but the entire Brexit process is a big steaming pile of shit for how farcical it's all been. I wish they'd get on with it and leave already.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
For Caroline Lucas and those who agreed with her lies about such things as holiday and parental leave...

Reality Check: Does the EU protect workers' rights?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36434855




Stating that mass, unmanaged immigration can lead to unsustainable pressures on infrastructure and housing, is what i most likely said. Nor have i ever blamed or otherwise criticised migrants for the failings existing present within the NHS. You may go back through the original EU Ref thread if you like, however i doubt you will find many posts of mine arguing that 350m a week will be paid into the health service.

On matters such as the Greek crisis, i do believe that Germany was in the driver's seat, and exerted an unhelpful influence over the outcome. The Franco-German axis is surely among the leading proponent for centralisation, no? Europe is not in my opinion ready for the statehood which backers of the project are aiming for.

I have consistently alluded to the potential for economic difficulties, and said that the government may need to intervene to alleviate the impact. I do not, however, concur with the more outlandish predictions made during the referendum, and am happy to see Britain fairing better than expected. Others here doubtless welcome the bad stories: either to delight in the plight of 'stupid' Leave voters, or because they see each little story as vindication.
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You blamed immigration levels on the state of the public services. The reason why the public services are in such a state is due to a lack of investment from the government going back to the 1960's. The situation in the North is particularly dreadful,
You also claimed that leaving the EU would fee up funds for the NHS. Pigs in the sky I reckon.

What Franco-German axis? You mean the one we're fed by the British press? There is no Franco-German axis. There's only xenophobia on the part of the British.
As for Greece, it's basically for the most part German tax payers bailing out the Greeks. Could you imagine what would happen if it was the British tax payer being asked to bail out the Greeks?! Greece should never have been part of the eurozone in the first place. But to start blaming the Germans for exerting unhelpful influence over the outcome is ridiculous as it's the German taxpayer who have been asked to foot bill in the first place.

I can only talk for myself, but I never claimed that the UK economy won't cope with leaving the EU. Besides, I think the UK will remain part of the EEA and still have access to the single market. That's my prediction, always has been, and you can quote me on that in March when the British government finally makes public what they intend to do. Which is exactly my question why on earth leave the EU in the first place? What is the advantage? Britain will end up compromising on freedom of movement of EU citizens, Britain still end up paying for being part of the EEA, whilst losing their influence on EU decision making.

As for the economy... interests rates are at an all time low, there's hardly any growth and the pound has taken a nosedive. Even the government admits Britain will go back into recession when article 50 is triggered, but this time under an inflationary climate because of the nosedive of the pound.
By the way, most non-UK companies with their (European) HQ in the UK have been making contingency plans for if Britain leaves the single market. If Britain is no longer part of the single market then I predict (and you can quote me on that as well) that it'll lead to an exodus of companies (European) HQ's out of the UK. However, again I state that I don't think the British government will allow it to go that far.
I think Britain will cope, just, even if Britain did not remain part of the single market. However, the British economy would be much weaker than if it were in the single market.

If anybody is so chauvinistic to believe that leaving the EU is going to increase Britain's fortunes and influence then you are seriously deluded. Brexit's going to far more harm than good. Which returns to my point once again, why on earth leave the EU in the first place???
 
Stanley Road said:
Pigeon holing. Carry on not getting it
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I'm not sure what the point is your making. Is it that workers rights will be equal or better if the UK leaves the EU? If that is your point then I find it very very hard to believe that workers rights will be equal or better if the UK leaves the EU. But there's little point in arguing about until we find out what leaving the EU will mean for workers rights in the EU.
 
Well the only thing on offer is hard exit as agreed by all 27 countries according to the guardian today, so there is little point in discussing the detail, we know whats on offer and that's that.
 
Rams said:
I'm not sure what the point is your making. Is it that workers rights will be equal or better if the UK leaves the EU? If that is your point then I find it very very hard to believe that workers rights will be equal or better if the UK leaves the EU. But there's little point in arguing about until we find out what leaving the EU will mean for workers rights in the EU.
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My point is that workers rights has feck all to do with the eu or we'd all have the same rights. So using that argument to point out ones rights will be worse after exit is utter shite.
 
Stanley Road said:
Well the only thing on offer is hard exit as agreed by all 27 countries according to the guardian today, so there is little point in discussing the detail, we know whats on offer and that's that.
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Britain will leave the EU and end up in the EEA on similar terms of the other EEA members that aren't in the EU, that's my prediction. That's why I think the governement is being so hush hush about their plans. We'll see if I'm wrong or right soon enough I guess.
 
Stanley Road said:
My point is that workers rights has feck all to do with the eu or we'd all have the same rights. So using that argument to point out ones rights will be worse after exit is utter shite.
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You're correct in that there is some autonomy within each EU member state and in the sense that the UK government can decide to leave workers rights unchanged. Personally, I'd be surprised if we don't see an austerity on workers rights in the UK given the historic UK opposition on EU directives regarding workers rights. Watch this space I guess.
 
Stanley Road said:
Well the only thing on offer is hard exit as agreed by all 27 countries according to the guardian today, so there is little point in discussing the detail, we know whats on offer and that's that.
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The uk gave them no choice. They expect unrestricted access to the single market without freedom of movement of people, accepting the custom union rules or pay in the eu budget
 
devilish said:
The uk gave them no choice. They expect unrestricted access to the single market without freedom of movement of people, accepting the custom union rules or pay in the eu budget
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They'll come to a compromise I think. It's all part of the process of coming to a deal.
 
Stanley Road said:
My point is that workers rights has feck all to do with the eu or we'd all have the same rights. So using that argument to point out ones rights will be worse after exit is utter shite.
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The EU puts a floor under working rights that individual nations may build up, but not go under. British workers rights will be trashed by the Tories once we are out
 
Mozza said:
The EU puts a floor under working rights that individual nations may build up, but not go under. British workers rights will be trashed by the Tories once we are out
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I don't get the feeling from this thread that you have any rights at the moment
 
Rams said:
They'll come to a compromise I think. It's all part of the process of coming to a deal.
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I much doubt it tbh. Patience is running thin and theres a big gulf between the two parties. In my opinion it would be stupid from the eu to give any shred of influence to the uk/us. Its evident that they dont have Europe best interest at heart
 
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devilish said:
I much doubt it tbh. Patience is running thin and theres a big gulf between the two parties. In my opinion it would be stupid from the eu to give any shred of influence to the uk/us. Its evident that they dont have Europe best interest at heart
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There's a lot to lose for both sides. The multi nationals such such as Shell, Unilever and GlaxoSmithKline will be lobbying hard with both sides and I think the UK gouvernment also wants to remain in the single market. The big challenge here is the issue on freedom of movement. That will take some before it's resolved, but I suspect it will be resolved eventually.
 
Rams said:
There's a lot to lose for both sides. The multi nationals such such as Shell, Unilever and GlaxoSmithKline will be lobbying hard with both sides and I think the UK gouvernment also wants to remain in the single market. The big challenge here is the issue on freedom of movement. That will take some before it's resolved, but I suspect it will be resolved eventually.
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I doubt that any of them will bulge. Theresa's hands are tied on freedom of movement while the Eastern/Southern European bloc will defend freedom of movement rights to the end. Nevertheless, the EU would be stupid to trust the UK again. Its time for the continent to grow up and do not let external influences having so much say about its matters. You don't see Russia asking China to provide military assistance or giving it a say on its politics
 
Fener1907 said:
You won't, because when you can be assed to read up on these supposed problems with EU membership - and that involves avoiding the bias of the newspapers like a plague in doing so - aside from them having been predictably exaggerated, it invariably brings you back to the question of whether or not they can be improved as a non-EU nation, to which there simply doesn't appear to be substantial answers. That's been one of the biggest problems all along.

It's hardly a revelation that facts and informed opinions are ignored at the expense of preconceptions and vague rhetoric, but the entire Brexit process is a big steaming pile of shit for how farcical it's all been. I wish they'd get on with it and leave already.
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Think this will continue for a long time, the Court decision bought May some time, and contesting it will give her more time.
They have no idea what to do or what they genuinely think they can gain from Brexit.

All we hear from Leave is - "we won" - what did they win, no-one can tell us.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Think this will continue for a long time, the Court decision bought May some time, and contesting it will give her more time.
They have no idea what to do or what they genuinely think they can gain from Brexit.

All we hear from Leave is - "we won" - what did they win, no-one can tell us.
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The Vote
 
What I see as happening is that the British elite will be at loggerheads with the European elite and I don't think people appreciate just how important saving the EU is for the latter. As I see it, if the EU concedes too much, the EU will collapse or be in danger of dong so. With it will go the Euro. What then ?

Honestly, nobody seems to be taking this political aspect of things into consideration. If it was only economics, why hasn't Merkel given in to German business over Russian sanctions ? What are the economic benefits of not exporting to Russia ?
 
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You'd think the U.K. invaded the Ukraine or summat the way some are arguing.

It's the interest of the EU and U.K. for the U.K. to remain part of the single market. On the other hand, the EU don't want to set a precedent. So it'll be tricky to find a solution.
But I think they'll probably come to some agreement along the way considering what's at stake.
 
Rams said:
You'd think the U.K. invaded the Ukraine or summat the way some are arguing.

It's the interest of the EU and U.K. for the U.K. to remain part of the single market. On the other hand, the EU don't want to set a precedent. So it'll be tricky to find a solution.
But I think they'll probably come to some agreement along the way considering what's at stake.
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If I had to bet, I'd say it's going to the same deal Cameron got. FoM stays (with benefits being time locked), we remain in the single market and our fee is reduced slightly (with subsidies for the UK being cut to 0). Which is a pretty shit deal, cos we'd also lose our veto and EU parliament votes this time round. But, heyho, they won.
 
With so many non eu people at my place of work i dont understand why fom is so important. Having said that, some are waiting to qualify for eu passports so they can settle in the uk. I guess that hope has gone to shit now.
 
Stanley Road said:
With so many non eu people at my place of work i dont understand why fom is so important. Having said that, some are waiting to qualify for eu passports so they can settle in the uk. I guess that hope has gone to shit now.
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Without freedom of movement the financial costs of moving to a new country tend to be much higher, and of course richer people get an extra advantage because they're far more likely to qualify due to educational qualifications etc. Removing FOM is basically yet another kick in the teeth for poor people who have aspirations beyond their own national boundaries.
 
Stanley Road said:
With so many non eu people at my place of work i dont understand why fom is so important. Having said that, some are waiting to qualify for eu passports so they can settle in the uk. I guess that hope has gone to shit now.
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Migration from non EU is still huge, the perception is that we are flooded by EU migrants is not entirely accurate. The whole immigration policy needs to be reviewed, not just EU. The elephant in the room is the UK guilt over former colonies.
 
Stanley Road said:
I don't get the feeling from this thread that you have any rights at the moment
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The fact that people are too afraid to protest when their rights are infringed or even stand up for themselves when they believe their employer is forcing them into situations potentially hazardous to their health or even life threatening does not mean those protections are not there, just that some people buy into all the "jobs are scarce, there's queues of immigrants waiting to steal yours" bullshit peddled by the Mail, Sun etc which allows employers to get away with flouting the legislation and the government to continue ignoring it.

The EU, among many other things provides:
  • The UK have resisted the legislation on written contracts but thansk to the EU all employees must be given a written statement relating to their working hours and pay within 28 days of starting a job, they are also pushing for zero hour contracts to be treated the same way but employers find ways around that by declaring every 12 day consecutive break without work as the end/start of a new employment period.
  • Paid annual leave for all employees, including zero hour contracts, became compulsory in 1998 thanks to the EU. Prior to that there were at least 6 million workers in the EU with no paid leave.
  • The EU restricts the working week to 48 hours, including at least one 24 hour rest day per week and 11 consecutive rest hours per day. Workers have the right to opt out and work longer hours but employers do not have the right to insist.
  • Maternity leave in the UK was already in line with the EU regulations but the EU brought in stronger protections against discrimination and job protection as well as ensuring pension contributions were maintained.
  • The EU increased the right for both partners to take unpaid parental leave helping families cover illness, school holidays etc without fearing for their jobs.
  • Equal pay for equal value of work regardless of gender which had previously been missing from UK employment discrimination law allowing employers to undervalue women in the workplace.
  • Stronger protection against discrimination with the burden of proof resting with the employer rather than the claimant.
  • Protection of a workers rights under a "Transfer of Undertakings" when a business is taken over, preventing the new owner from getting rid of staff unfairly.
  • A protection of collective bargaining and employee representation and consultation hanging onto the last vestiges of what our unions once stood for.
  • Improved Health and Safety regulations, whilst the UK was already pretty good with the regulations they were less strict on the enforcement and have been brought into line with major changes in particularly dangerous industries like construction, oil & gas, heavy mechanical engineering etc.
That employers of up to 20% of our workforce seek to try and work around the regulations through things like zero hour contracts, which our own courts have stated in many cases are illegal and should be converted to regular contracts due to the regular working patterns of the employees is a sign of how little our government cares to enforce these regulations. Labour have for years said that they would make zero hours contracts illegal for most regular workers (ie not freelancers, casual labour etc who seek the freedom of zero hours and no employer exclusivity) but I don't see the tories following suit whilst they're so chummy with tax dodging bastards like Amazon, Starbucks etc who employ all their non-exec staff in this way.

Do you genuinely believe that any future tory government in the UK will not seek to eat away at many of these workers rights to entice big companies to exploit us just a little bit more in their quest to make Britain Great again? Unlike @Paul the Wolf I sadly fear I do understand what that phrase means, in my humble opinion the political elite would love nothing more than for the British working man to put his nose to the grindstone, break his back, sweat blood and be grateful that his employer sees fit to throw him a crust not forgetting to doff his cap to the mill owner as he passes and retain a stiff upper lip rather than that wobbly bottom one we're more accustomed to these days. A northern powerhouse that sees a return of the workhouse, the poorhouse and foodbanks and for us all to shut up and be grateful for it whilst their corporate buddies slip the politicians a few bob to make it so.

The ECJ would offer support to people like the earlier poster who felt they had to act in contradiction to what they knew to be safe because their employer insisted and they feared for their job, I'll not lambast him any more as only he knows how dangerous his job is and how precarious his work position but as I've already said, no job is worth risking your life or health or that of others and nobody has the right (at present) to insist you do it.
 
Stanley Road said:
I doubt half of your bullet points are adhered to and especially the zero hour contracts
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Then people are fools for not standing up for their rights, for not striving for a better work life balance and for letting business and politicians get away with flouting the rules. I don't rigidly follow the working hours directive myself, sometimes going 2 or 3 times over their limit but do lie about meeting it's requirements in timesheets I have to submit which may be audited as part of my company's Network Rail licensing if they chose to audit us whilst working on one of their contracts and would change my routine and ensure I wasn't burning the midnight oil if I was required on a rail site just as I have not touched drugs for over 15 years due to the same potential for a random test. That is however my choice, I'm well paid for a senior roll and ensure the work life balance swings back in my direction when it is convenient to do so along with various other perks of the position. Were I still a minimum wage site operative or desk jockey then you would not catch me going over the working hours directive unless it suited me financially and was advancing my position.

Where things like H&S are concerned I worked on site before many of the sensible regulations came into place and flung around 50kg kerb stones, cement bags etc for fun and would even climb ladders with 100kg rolls of lead flashing on my shoulder, I was young enough and daft enough to think it was a laugh and thankfully big enough that I didn't sustain any injuries although in retrospect I do wonder if the spinal decompression surgery I underwent at 36 wasn't down to things I did on site at 22. Those were my choice and my personal risk however, where the lives of myself or others are potentially at risk then that's a line I would never have crossed and have always stood my ground over.
 
Yes i agree, again its upto joe soap to look after himself time and time again as it means feck all what the eu put on paper in this instance. many people at my place do 80 hours a week. I do 40
 
Sarkozy going out in the first round of voting would be nice.
 
I jusr read a long article about the italian economy and in particular Renzi. when us their referendum on reform?

That could be interesting
 
...you realise this is the primary for the Republican candidate?
 
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Ubik said:
...you realise this is the primary for the Republican candidate?
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Well, yeah but a huge likelihood it'll be this right-winger vs Le Pen?
And with Italian referendum, Austria, Holland, etc.....
 
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