You're fine with people who've lived here for decades potentially getting the boot, then? Cheers for clarifying.
Question Time & This Week
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You're fine with people who've lived here for decades potentially getting the boot, then? Cheers for clarifying.
Are hordes of our politicians actually suggesting existing EU migrants should be forcibly repatriated?
I daresay one might find the odd loon who does, if you looked hard enough, but as I see it it's one giant humongous straw man.
I daresay one might find the odd loon who does, if you looked hard enough, but as I see it it's one giant humongous straw man.
I don't know how you voted in the referendum, but when Leavers (and the government) make this sort of argument it reveals again that they don't understand how asymmetric the negotiations with the EU are. Or as @Ubik suggests are simply fluffing the far-right wing.
Most UK citizens in the EU reside in Spain, but most EU citizens in the UK are from eastern Europe. How threatening Spain with the deportation of Poles is supposed to work eludes me.
You're approach to a negotiation is incredibly naive. From what we hear from the scaremongers we're going to be so screwed by the EU in the negotiation, yet you want to give them a head start. i'm not saying I don't think we should not give this to them, but why the feck would you give it up before it starts? Bonkers.
None of them are particularly suggesting it, or genuinely want it to happen, but even going into negotiations without assurances for EU citizens who have lived, worked and contributed to this country for (in some cases) decades is fairly terrible.
fecking hell Dimbleby.
No, they're just saying there may be some conditions around them staying, maybe similar to brits staying in EU countries, and for sure with better rights than non EU immigrants who are here legally.
Soft coup!
This Labour politician is dreadful.
Also a large percentage of the numbers on both sides are Irish. e.g. Brits in Eire or Irish in UK. But yes, let's stir that issue up.
"Anthony Charles Lynton Blair"
Indeed. I don't think it's a question of bargaining so much as chronology. Article 50, negotiations to a mutually beneficial postion, agreement.
There's self deprecation, then there's saying you can't remember ten things.
You ok with brits having lived abroad for decades getting the boot?
they at least got to vote for it (and obviously no one wants anyone deported. but it is worth bearing in mind that EU citizens couldn't vote in the referendum, so the threat to their status is even worse)
No, I'm not. But realistically it isn't going to happen; there's no reason for it to. If you genuinely believe we need to hold back on assurances then you presumably think there's a chance it could happen...which would be a complete, absolute clusterfeck on an epic scale.
I can't remember the last time a Tory actually said anything on Question Time.
ok so you're fine with guaranteeing EU citizens rights, and then UK citizens gets booted out or penalised for staying in EU countries. good to clear that up.
I'm not watching but I fully agree with this statement.
In fairness to Butler, she was in the new intake of 2015 and in any normal situation she wouldn't have even been in the shadow cabinet yet, let alone had the time to resign from it.
I mean I did add a bit to my snarky post, but I do actually think there is a qualitative difference given the EU citizens had no say in the referendum result.
But the whole issue is just another indication of how massively the government is misjudging the negotiations. The EU hold the most important card of all which is the timing. Article 50 sets a hard time limit and there is no question that the U.K. will be hurt more by no deal than the EU would (the asymmetry of the relationship). The EU negotiators simply have to stall and the UK is fecked.
What this means is that the government's approach should have been to focus on building goodwill and try to arrange an amicable separation. Instead of which May and the rest of the Brexiters have taken a combative approach, but every threat is really a pistol pointed at our own head.
I mean if I'm the EU, I look at the threat to deport EU citizens and just call the bluff. For two reasons.
1. Huge outrage and opposition within the U.K.
2. Economically catastrophic
What threat?
It's implicit isn't it? I mean you can say it's a straw man and that no politicians support it, but then why won't the government permit an amendment ruling it out
- "We promise we won't do this thing"
- "Can I have that in writing?"
- "No"
- "Errr..."
That bloke from the band didn't half shit his knickers all night.
I forgot how bad this programme is.
I forgot how bad this programme is.
It's strange. "We are not using these people as bargaining chips! We just want to use them as leverage to get what we want."
As you asked, no, it isn't. The government is looking at the timescale. If, in the negotiations after article 50, the government fails to secure rights for UK and EU citizens I shall be leaping on your bandwagon I promise you. If and when it happens.
Never understand when they have people like him on as a guest when clearly they have little confidence in putting a constructive point across, especially to a live audience, just uncomfortable to watch.
Not sure what this obsession is with giving cast iron guarantees on so many things when we can't actually negotiate anything until we've triggered the process. If we listened to half the politicians and so called experts we would have already given most of our hand away without getting anything in return.
I can see sense in both sides of the guaranteed residency argument.
That’s not because I’m sitting on the fence, but because it’s a complex issue that keeps being lazily framed in black and white terms. Everything seems to get reduced to twitter friendly abstracts these days, or in the case of Question Time, into one minute answers to 30 second questions.
It is unforeseeable that all EU citizens currently in the UK will be forcibly expelled, just as UK expats in the EU won’t all be forced to return to the UK. However, there could be any kind of rules for qualifying periods of residency, links to employment, spouse’s rights, entitlement to benefits, pension obligations, issuance of ID cards, etc.
All these matters will need to be negotiated post Article 50 notification. A blanket commitment to EU immigrants before then is really just virtue signalling. Equally, it’s not all that useful to announce that most of those affected will be allowed to stay, but a few might be unlucky, and it’s currently impossible to say whom, nor whether anyone’s rights will be slightly altered.
Post referendum, it’s probably best just to get Article 50 notification done on schedule and then get on with hammering out issues with Brussels. At least securing rights to residency has been publicly addressed as a negotiation priority – in terms of importance and timing.
That’s not because I’m sitting on the fence, but because it’s a complex issue that keeps being lazily framed in black and white terms. Everything seems to get reduced to twitter friendly abstracts these days, or in the case of Question Time, into one minute answers to 30 second questions.
It is unforeseeable that all EU citizens currently in the UK will be forcibly expelled, just as UK expats in the EU won’t all be forced to return to the UK. However, there could be any kind of rules for qualifying periods of residency, links to employment, spouse’s rights, entitlement to benefits, pension obligations, issuance of ID cards, etc.
All these matters will need to be negotiated post Article 50 notification. A blanket commitment to EU immigrants before then is really just virtue signalling. Equally, it’s not all that useful to announce that most of those affected will be allowed to stay, but a few might be unlucky, and it’s currently impossible to say whom, nor whether anyone’s rights will be slightly altered.
Post referendum, it’s probably best just to get Article 50 notification done on schedule and then get on with hammering out issues with Brussels. At least securing rights to residency has been publicly addressed as a negotiation priority – in terms of importance and timing.
Does your interest in Brits living abroad getting the boot from somewhere they want to remain extend to Gibraltar and it's 96% remain vote? Just wondering.
I know now of a few doctors (some European, some not) who have been refused permanent residency in this country over the past few months despite all of them having lived here for over ten years. All of their records are squeaky clean.
They are now all seriously considering their future in this country and rightly so. I personally also am, despite being a citizen.
Now, I don't think anyone has ever claimed that the government is going to round up EU nationals, put them in camps at Dover and deport them back to the mainland in rickety boats. But let's be completely honest here. There has been a shift in discourse and action since the vote. These few doctors are people I know personally and I've heard other similar stories of people I don't know. They all would have received residency/ citizenship half a year ago. That doesn't lie right to me.
Also, using these people as a bargaining chip is stupid and immoral. And for those saying, oh it is just a bargaining chip, nothing will ever happen. Well, something can only be used for bargaining if the other side believes that you'll actually go through with it. So that means either a) you're wrong and this government would be willing to change these peoples' lives, many of whom contribute massively to this country, massively or b) if you can see that thr government are bluffing, then the EU will likewise be able to see they're bluffing and it will gain us nothing.
Also, have the EU ever said they would boot out UK citizens? I'm very willing to be corrected on this as I'm not 100% sure but I'm pretty sure that it was us who first fired this conversation up by refusing to confirm EU citizens rights?
They are now all seriously considering their future in this country and rightly so. I personally also am, despite being a citizen.
Now, I don't think anyone has ever claimed that the government is going to round up EU nationals, put them in camps at Dover and deport them back to the mainland in rickety boats. But let's be completely honest here. There has been a shift in discourse and action since the vote. These few doctors are people I know personally and I've heard other similar stories of people I don't know. They all would have received residency/ citizenship half a year ago. That doesn't lie right to me.
Also, using these people as a bargaining chip is stupid and immoral. And for those saying, oh it is just a bargaining chip, nothing will ever happen. Well, something can only be used for bargaining if the other side believes that you'll actually go through with it. So that means either a) you're wrong and this government would be willing to change these peoples' lives, many of whom contribute massively to this country, massively or b) if you can see that thr government are bluffing, then the EU will likewise be able to see they're bluffing and it will gain us nothing.
Also, have the EU ever said they would boot out UK citizens? I'm very willing to be corrected on this as I'm not 100% sure but I'm pretty sure that it was us who first fired this conversation up by refusing to confirm EU citizens rights?
I'm a UK citizen living in the EU, and you better believe I'm pissed off at being considered a 'bargaining chip' or part of a negotiating 'hand'. Within days of the vote, governments across Europe came out and said that although they couldn't formally negotiate until Article 50 was submitted (bear in mind no-one was even 100% it ever would be), that they valued us greatly and would do everything in their power to protect us. What did the UK government do? Say nothing, then call us bargaining chips, then make half-arsed statements about wanting to protect rights, but refuse to just say they would.
We moved to the EU as part of the EU, everything was legal and perfectly above board, and now our own government has made it abundantly clear they couldn't give a feck about us. Quite frankly I wouldn't move back to that small minded, intolerant shithole if you paid me. I was a proud Brit who used to tell every European I talked to that Britain was a wonderful place full of open, tolerant people who might seem cold at first but who have an incredible depth of warmth and kindness once you start getting to know them. Turns out I was a fecking mug, and had been lying to them the whole time.
Its not a game of poker ffs. There's nothing wrong with going into negotiations with hard positions on a number of matters, why brexiteers seem to think all proffesional negotiations are done with nothing on the table is perplexing.
Its like they've been taking advice from Del boy and Boycie
Is that not after May and co have repeatedly refused to confirm their status post Brexit?
The Government have already said multiple times that they want to protect EU citizens status currently living here, not sure what the problem is with them saying that they also want to protect the status of UK citizens living in other EU countries. It's not a bargaining chip, other EU countries are the ones saying that they won't discuss or give any confirmation until we trigger the actual process. The whole thing is a mess, it's the tone and the constant brexiteers vs remoaners debate which becomes tiresome, too many people just looking for an angry exchange rather than a rational conversation.
Sorry but it is a bargaining chip, they were advised by Sir Ivan Rodgers to use the position on EU nationals as a bargaining chip and they've done so. Nice words don't cover up that its a strategic decision.
The EU can't as a collective body come to a position before its negotiations even begin. We as a single goverment (or voice since May doesnt listen to anyone) can state our positions clearly.
Liam Fox described us as 'one of the main cards in the government's negotiating hand'. The government haven't made a secret of this. The idea that this is the other EU countries fault is utterly ridiculous, in case you missed this little point, we haven't formally submitted that we're leaving yet.
This government has announced firmly that it's going to follow a long list of commitments, yet apparently the protection of the rights of around 4 million human beings doesn't qualify as important compared to vital issues like keeping Nissan in Sunderland.
Possibly so. I think both sides have been equally uncompromising, with plenty of posturing to appease their constituencies. I can only hope that there is better intent in behind the scenes discussions.
It's down to the individual to choose to believe what one politician says from another. I already stated that the EU have said that they will not discuss or negotiate anything until we trigger Article 50, maybe you missed that point. The status of EU nationals living in the U.K. has been pointed out as a priority.