I'm not a fan boy. But the art of defense is an art.
Ander Herrera vs N'golo Kanté | Thread has gone well
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I'm not a fan boy. But the art of defense is an art.
And that caused Utd to park the submarine yet Kante scored.Ha,even betterYeah, in one after Ander was... sent off
There was a thread on here a few years ago praising Herrera. Half the thread was full of people wanking themselves over Schneiderlin who was then at Southampton.
maybe Kante delivers more with less? Didn't Maldini suggest that if he has to tackle, then he has failed? Maybe Kante is in the right place at the right time. He is also far more athletic and a driving force. He rarely has a terrible game where as Ander does sometimes
An approach that should give a player terrific interception stats. Not many defensive contributions you can't see reflected in stats.
Other than, maybe, marking someone so closely that their team-mates are forced to not pass to them...
And that caused Utd to park the submarine yet Kante scored.Ha,even better
Yes, it's definitely better. Kante turned up when one of our midfielders was sent off. Which wasn't the case yesterday, hence his shitty performance.
Imagine If Chelsea had someone sent off yesterday in the 30th minute? The final result would've been more than 2 nil.
Could be, who knows! Carrick is a master in that regard.
That's for CBs IIRC.
I agree and I know Herrera tops Kante on interceptions, indicating a better reading of the game. He also tops Kante on percentage of duels won AND Kante plays alongside a holding midfield partner.An approach that should give a player terrific interception stats. Not many defensive contributions you can't see reflected in stats.
Other than, maybe, marking someone so closely that their team-mates are forced to not pass to them...
This may sound shameful, but Kante possesses attributes that look good in a country like England. Pace, power and stamina. He is able to charge around more, "putting himself about" therefore he gets to the action more and is able to put in more tackles (which he does statistically). I think he also covers the most ground in the league so he has a "great set of lungs" to "cover every blade of grass." These are things I heard a lot of praise for growing up in the UK. it sounds like I am suggesting, Kante is the best at running a lot and kicking peoples ankles.
He is a quite good ball carrier when I see him though. Maybe in Spain, someone like Herrera would get the higher praise, but we're in England, where athleticism can speak louder than intelligence. This is just my theory.
Interesting theory; could explain why so many appear to dismiss Herrera's statistical superiority.
I don't think Herrera's a typical Spanish midfielder though. I'd say he's very English in many of his characteristics, he just lacks the pedigree that Kante has at the moment (thanks to being a key part of Leicester's title winning side and this years Chelsea side while Herrera's been stuck on the bench under LvG) and is also under a lot more scrutiny because he plays for us.
Our fanbase, is literally one of the few I've seen that right off players as being shit for not making it onto the pitch (whether its due to injuries or being out of favor by the manager irrespective of onfield performances).
Yeah, I agree about the reputation, but I do also think what @Stacks said could be part of it. I have challenged a couple of people to explain what they mean by Kante 'dominates the midfield' and, tbh, I haven't heard a convincing explanation. It may well be that his huge engine, athleticism and ground coverage influences opinions more than his actual effectiveness. All hypothetical, of course.
Not that I think Herrera is great (he isn't), but I'll always see Kante as a very limited player. The consistency over the last two seasons making the most of his ability has been incredible though.
It's not mere theory. It's closer to reality. Pep would take Herrera over Kante any days of the week. LVG who also obsessed with positional play & possession wouldn't neither, despite the fact the he himself doesn't fancy Herrera for his pressing game. It's all down how the coach wants to build his team. A more team work demanding system wouldn't need a player to overstep other players' role (press as a team), and would demand more overall contribution in build up from its midfielder.
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Herrera has won more tackles and has made more interceptions than Kante if you adjust for the time spent on the pitch.
The neighbour's cow always looks more attractive.
Excellent post!
Redcafe always favours rival players even when the evidence(backed by facts) is glaring.
Tackling technique is not measured by how often a player tackles or wins a tackle.
What the feck are you talking about? Tackling technique? What difference does it make if the tackle is successful or not?
If you have no idea what tackling technique is, I advise you stick to watching badminton.
For others with an appreciation for the art ......
That's just a last ditch tackle and a nicely timed sliding tackle. It's hardly fecking art. Good tackles nothing more.If that is all you can see, then stick with Badminton
Yes, it's definitely better. Kante turned up when one of our midfielders was sent off. Which wasn't the case yesterday, hence his shitty performance.
Imagine If Chelsea had someone sent off yesterday in the 30th minute? The final result would've been more than 2 nil.
Yeah, ifs and buts and what not.Fine.
That's all I can see good tackles. You're making it out as it's some unbelievable feat that we only see once in a blue moon. We see good crunching tackles, we see slide tackles, we cynical tackles that are fouls. We see them every fecking game. It's nothing special. Tackles may look differently or even aesthetically pleasing to some but ultimately as long as the player wins the ball back, who gives a feck about 'tackling techniques'?
We couldn't even score against Bournemouth with their 10 men.Yes, it's definitely better. Kante turned up when one of our midfielders was sent off. Which wasn't the case yesterday, hence his shitty performance.
Imagine If Chelsea had someone sent off yesterday in the 30th minute? The final result would've been more than 2 nil.
Not wanting to create trouble here but I guess he was saying that to make tackles you also need to have some kind of technique, reading these forums I guess that this is an cultural thing in British football, where tackling and second bals are seen by the public as an measure of success.
I remember Xabi Alonso saying in an interview and Maldini that making tackles in the ground does not reflect sucess for an player, because it means the player is not tactical aware and not in a good position in the pitch, anyway I don't know if the conversation was going in that direction or no.
Not wanting to create trouble here but I guess he was saying that to make tackles you also need to have some kind of technique, reading these forums I guess that this is an cultural thing in British football, where tackling and second bals are seen by the public as an measure of success.
I remember Xabi Alonso saying in an interview and Maldini that making tackles in the ground does not reflect sucess for an player, because it means the player is not tactical aware and not in a good position in the pitch, anyway I don't know if the conversation was going in that direction or no.
I'm not sure what he was trying to say to be honest. I mean, to able to tackle you need to have good timing, good coordination and have decent anticipation of what the opponent will do. I'm pretty sure anyone who has played football before could tackle to a decent level when they wanted to.
I find the whole thing about technique - bizarre. Stop over complicating the game. (Not having a go at you btw) I understand that some people are better at tackling than others but surely that's measured but how many tackles you've won and lost, rather than by I don't know, I don't even know what he's trying to say, er 'Kante's tackling is more of an art than Herrera's as it looks better' or something. I'm sorry, I don't get it at all.
More or less that, but i guess he was trying to say when players make tackles as last resort, it would be like comparing Busquets or someone like Robbie Savage, ok Busquets has more technique but he also has to make interceptions, and when I mean Savage is like I remember an typical British player, where they celebrate running after an player to tackle.
But you are right, for fans those expressions don't mean much, anyway Herrera is from Bilbao, and the Basque Region is culturally the part of Spain where they play an more agressive football, with some sort of British influence.
If that is the case, his interception numbers will be higher. Kante is just this years Scott Parker. End of Story.
That poster is not discussing any of these you're trying to elaborate which we can easily agree.
He's trying to say Kante has better tackle technique and it can't be measured by stats. Herrera beat Kante in interception stats too, so no excuse with word being lost in translation.
Same poster saying Kante is DM which I can interpret as defensive holding midfielder while Herrera is b2b! This season Herrera has been deployed in a more conservative holding role, while Kante definitely a no 8 b2b who was given freedom to running alot pressing. If you're talking about positional discipline, then Herrera is one more impressive than Kante. Bilbao, Bielsa's pressing style also has much tactical positioning work. It requires pressing as a team. It's different than Kante's individual pressing.
What makes Kante's pressing effective is how Chelsea set up, which it's hard to opposition who try to play passing game, is that their passing options higher up the pitch are restricted. Kante doesn't make many interception nor win many tackle as say Herrera, but due to the position where he win it (opposition's last defensive line), it's dangerous for counter attack since Kante is decent carrying the ball and pass it to Chelsea's main attackers.
How did we counter that? Don't try to be too expansive. Contained all Kante passing options. He would end up having much possession but doesn't know what to do with it. He can run alot and congest his own team space too.
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We were talking about Kante vs Herrera in our games against Chelsea.
No ifs nor buts. Herrera's performance was miles better than Kante on Sunday.
Think Herrera has a more demanding job to do.
Kante is mostly deployed as a ball recovery/destroyer type of player which he is doing perfectly in a fast transition football system Conte has Chelsea playing.
Herrera's role is ball recovery/destroyer/creator/man marking.
Now Kante did score 2 goals, and annoyingly enough both were against us but one was when we were a man down and he had more freedom in his game, 2ND when we were attacking non stop and left ourselves open for quick counters which is Chelsea's bread and butter.
Kante is mostly deployed as a ball recovery/destroyer type of player which he is doing perfectly in a fast transition football system Conte has Chelsea playing.
Herrera's role is ball recovery/destroyer/creator/man marking.
Now Kante did score 2 goals, and annoyingly enough both were against us but one was when we were a man down and he had more freedom in his game, 2ND when we were attacking non stop and left ourselves open for quick counters which is Chelsea's bread and butter.
His offensive contributions are nearly non existent generally.
Depends how you look at it. You could argue that Kante starts a lot of counter attacks through breaking up opposition play his distribution following that.
Personally I think that Herrera has more in his locker, but Kante is better at the specific role he does. Herrera's role in United's midfield involves a lot more than Kante's.
But even on that metric Herrera wins the ball back more often than Kante so would start more attacks.
Yeah. He's ball carrier tbh, his main offensive contribution is to get rid of the ball once he's recovers it.
Both equally involved in the set up of their team. Kante gets the plaudits as he wins the title in a team that shouldn't, and on paper is the difference that transforms Chelsea back into champions.
Herrera playing in a team with a dysfunctional attack, but the job he does is clear to see and can be supported by the fact we rarely lose even when we don't score.
Although they're not the same player, I'm not convinced switching the two would have as big a difference as some people would expect.
Herrera has had the best season any United midfielder has had since Carrick 12/13. Without his all action displays, the loss tally would be higher in those games we score none or even 1.
Herrera playing in a team with a dysfunctional attack, but the job he does is clear to see and can be supported by the fact we rarely lose even when we don't score.
Although they're not the same player, I'm not convinced switching the two would have as big a difference as some people would expect.
Herrera has had the best season any United midfielder has had since Carrick 12/13. Without his all action displays, the loss tally would be higher in those games we score none or even 1.
Swapping Herrera for Kante would have made no significant difference to our team. Defensively we have been very good but can't score nearly enough. If anything Kante may have worsened that aspect as he definitely isn't as good on the ball as Herrera.
The real difference maker for Chelsea this season has been Hazard. Without him they're rather average.
If your technique is superb, you would win more tackles. It's as simple as that. It just seems you dunno what you are talking about.
I always thought it's more to due to conditioning, athleticism and ability to read the game. Technique is more for ball handling, passing and scoring, no?