General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

[togg]

If the Tories actually do get half into bed with the DUP, then all the work over last goodness knows how many years for peace in Northern Ireland and the Good Friday agreement will implode. This could have devastating consequences for the security of the region and the nation as a whole, and that, coupled with ISIS could make the UK a bloody war zone. The UK government is meant to be a non partisan mediator in Northern Irish politics. Relying or cosying up to the DUP in order to form a government goes against the Good Friday Aggreement and would be extremely destructive to peace. It's so not worth the risk. Northern Irish politics is at it's most unstable position for years......this will just break the camels back.

The Tories need to take a deep breath.....let the post Election mayhem subside and really really think things through.

 

[rcoobc]

Tory-DUP alliance handling Brexit & copping the resultant shit is good for Labour in the short term

Great, happy for Labour that they will be relevant again somewhere down the line.

But actually I don't care about Labour, just this country.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

So by this logic any government that got into a coalition would be a disaster?

If Labour wanted to get into power now they would have to form a government with every other party and still wouldnt have enough votes. Would this not be more of a disaster and potential risk than a Convervative coalition?

Not if may fails with queen speech they wouldn't (unlikely but possible) then they get a chance.

 

[Eire Red United]

"obviously"

Do wonder if this damages Sinn Fein. Obviously a lot of their support is a pro-Republican protest vote but a lot of their support is in rejecting the DUP/Tories. Wonder if next time people will go with other parties of the left in NI knowing that SF's refusal to take their seats has effectively allowed the DUP to be at the heart of the UK government for the first time ever.

Thats not true, even if Sinn Fein did take their seats in Westminister the Tories along with the DUP still have their majority. And people know what their voting for with Sinn Fein and no-one with any sense would expect Sinn Fein to abandon their very core beliefs and take and oath to a monarch, it would go against the principles of what Sinn Fein was formed for.

 

[Eire Red United]

Cash For Ash is one of the bizarrest things I've come across in politics. Unbelievably dumb.

Not really. Just the corrupt DUP giving handouts to their rich mates to heat empty sheds.

 

[Stanley Road]

The last 2 major polls on the caf have been the polar opposite of actual results. Im going to use the next poll to place a big bet based on it.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Someone please remind me.
Who stabbed who's back in the last leadership contest, Give or Boris?

Gove stabbed Boris in the back.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

If your main defence to getting into bed with someone dodgy is that you don't have to agree with them then maybe you shouldn't form a fecking alliance with them in the first place. The Tories love to undermine issues and talk down to folk but this is taking the utter piss.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Theres a lot of talk about another election etc but obviously it wont happen. Even if a new leader is put in power they wont call another election. Jeremy Corbyn will have his shot again in the next election in 5y time. Anyone else who believes he will somehow get power sooner is a bit blinkered IMO. The Torys increased their vote share this election. If anything, May is more popular than Cameron was when he called the last election. The party got the majority of seats and the majority of the vote. They have democratically been voted the most popular party in seats and votes and thus are leading the country. I am not a May fan but i dont see how it can be viewed any differenyly. Talk of a Labour party leading govt is bizarre and would be undemocratic - they did not get the majority of the vote. We cant keep changing the goal posts until we get the result we want.

yeah i agree, talk of Corbyn forming a government on the back of this result are ludicrous, it would be un democratic as May got more votes and more seats, it would be impossible as their is no way he could cobble togther enough seats in the commons to even attempt to form a government.

The only way in which Corbyn won was this election is that he did better then expected while may did worse, and you don't get to form a government becuase you beat expectation, and that is also a very very flimsy argument to claim victory which is what ive seen corbyn and alot of other people doing!

Corbyn, His supporters(which im one off) the Labour Party, have to get back to a bit of reality here, even with May running possibly the worse general election campaign we have ever see, Even with unprecedented youth support, at a time where austerity is really biting...... the best we could do is only just stop the torries getting a majority.

This in no way was a win, and we should stop acting like it is, and face up to what are going to be some very hard years!

 

[Mozza]

You'd think so. Time will tell. Obviously, it would have been better for everyone if he had won them round when it mattered most, before the election. I doubt he'll ever come up against someone as inept, aloof and dislikable as Theresa May ever again.

You are talking from a position of hindsight. May had approval ratings through the roof pre election, Labour were facing disaster, those dissenters couldn't accept that Corbyn's popularity extended beyond his base. There was nothing he could do to convince them other than this election.

 

[Full Member]

Not if may fails with queen speech they wouldn't (unlikely but possible) then they get a chance.

I really hope that the caf members that are slating the Con-DUP alliance and are worried about the concessions that will be demanded and granted will be also extending this same degree of hyperbole to a potential Lab-Lib-SNP-Green-Plaid-DUP coalition too. Do you not think that concessions will have to be made here too? If not more? Before you know it, Corbyns wonderful policies will be watered down and he will soon upset people. Its all very well talking about WHAT you would do when you get into power but another thing actually getting those policies through. If he failed to deliver the promise of free student loans for example, then his vote share would tumble dramatically. The irony about a Corbyn alliance is that he will need DUP support to govern. Will all those hammering on about DUP influence now be banging on about it when Corbyn needs their support? Think about that.

 

[montpelier]

So by this logic any government that got into a coalition would be a disaster?

If Labour wanted to get into power now they would have to form a government with every other party and still wouldnt have enough votes. Would this not be more of a disaster and potential risk than a Convervative coalition?

Yes, theory says coalitions are bad news for the Party that does them. Seen as weak I would presume, best avoided in UK politics, but they never do avoid them if it means grasping on to a bit of power, .

 

[Full bodied red]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38229535



I thought I'd post this for people who have never heard about Burn to Earn. This is the people that Mat climbing into bed with. Are they corrupted or just criminally stupid?

They're professional politicians - so the answer is certainly BOTH.

 

[Full Member]

Yes, theory says coalitions are bad news for the Party that does them. Seen as weak I would presume, best avoided in UK politics, but they never do avoid them if it means grasping on to a bit of power, .

To get into power, Labour would need to enter a coalition. I presume you would not be okay with that?

 

[unchanged_lineup]

Not really. Just the corrupt DUP giving handouts to their rich mates to heat empty sheds.

Unbelievably dumb to think that noone would cop on to it when one fella makes a million quid from it.

 

[montpelier]

To get into power, Labour would need to enter a coalition. I presume you would not be okay with that?

Corbyn hasn't got the numbers any way about - he's bluffing to make mischief.

 

[rpitchfo]

Corbyn hasn't got the numbers any way about - he's bluffing to make mischief.

Exactly...he wouldn't have a chance of getting a QS through parliament but the very fact he might get that far is very important. It makes the labour party relevant again and gives the impression they are capable of forming a government. A minority tory government is going to get a bashing during the brexit negotiations...a couple of by elections later and labour are well placed to take advantage.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

yeah i agree, talk of Corbyn forming a government on the back of this result are ludicrous, it would be un democratic as May got more votes and more seats, it would be impossible as their is no way he could cobble togther enough seats in the commons to even attempt to form a government.

The only way in which Corbyn won was this election is that he did better then expected while ma did worse, and you don't get to form a government becuase you beat expectation, and that is a very very flimsy argument to claim victory which is what ive seen corbyn and

Corbyn, His supporters(which im one off) the Labour Party, have to get back to a bit of reality here, even with May running possibly the worse general election campaign we have ever see, Even with unprecedented youth support, at a time where austerity is really biting...... the best we could do is only just stop the torries getting a majority.

This in no way was a win, and we should stop acting like it is, and face up to what are going to be some very hard years!

Gosh you are a load of fun aren't you. Momentum (no pun) is important and Labour are in a position to win the next general election, I could never dream of saying that 6 weeks ago. It is a massive turnaround in a short space of time and what Labour need to do now is show unity, develop a proper plan and continue to kick on. The narrative when the election was called was RIP Labour, now the results have come out people are saying WE SHOULD HAVE WON! I fail to see how that narrative can even be considered, there is no other person in the Labour Party who would have released that manifesto nor would have galvanised the youth vote. I do understand where your worry comes from but I can't foresee this Government seeing out a full 5 year term.

In my mind Corbyn should be viewed as the dividing line between the negativity associated to the Labour Party as a result of WMD/Recession, he's the clean break from Blairism. This doesn't necessarily mean the whole party has to shift left but the centre of the party should take note of the resonant messages Corbyn delivered in his campaign and use them going forward.

The Tories are in between a rock and a hard place. They can't get rid of May because they've activated A50 and 3 leaders in 2 years with the backdrop of Brexit is easy political mileage for opposition. They are scared of another GE and they currently in a very precarious agreement with the DUP that risks further instability in NI and will most likely put Hard Brexit in the bin. All of this is a cocktail for Labour to continue to make ground on if they want. It all depends however, as Mockney said yesterday, on the reconciliation between the centre and left of the party.

 

[Full bodied red]

All the worry about coalition government...

It's actually the norm in many countries - particularly inside the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_coalition_governments

The problems should be when the different parties can't agree a coalition. I say should be, because a couple of years ago Belgium's parties couldn't agree on a coalition, and for about 18 months there was no 'proper' government in power.

Amazing thing is that nobody actually seemed to notice.

 

[rcoobc]

The last 2 major polls on the caf have been the polar opposite of actual results. Im going to use the next poll to place a big bet based on it.

Theyve been entirely representative of the youth vote

 

[Drifter]

Listened to John Pienaar get a real bashing from Ken Loach and Len McCluskey on the BBC attacks on Corbyn. Plus Steven Kinnock now saying if he was asked back into the shadow cabinet it would be a honour. If you can get it on BBC podcast it's a good listen.

 

[rcoobc]

All the worry about coalition government...

It's actually the norm in many countries - particularly inside the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_coalition_governments

The problems should be when the different parties can't agree a coalition. I say should be, because a couple of years ago Belgium's parties couldn't agree on a coalition, and for about 18 months there was no 'proper' government in power.

Amazing thing is that nobody actually seemed to notice.

Jesus, no one is worried about a coalition government. I hope that many Labour supporters on here actually want to see coalition's become the norm, as we move towards multi-party politics and Proportional Representation. Historically coalitions happen all the time in the UK, Churchhill, David Lloyd George, and so on.

People are worries about the DUP, Brexit and Northern Ireland. Each of which should be enough to collapse an unstable government

 

[Rolandofgilead]

I really hope that the caf members that are slating the Con-DUP alliance and are worried about the concessions that will be demanded and granted will be also extending this same degree of hyperbole to a potential Lab-Lib-SNP-Green-Plaid-DUP coalition too. Do you not think that concessions will have to be made here too? If not more? Before you know it, Corbyns wonderful policies will be watered down and he will soon upset people. Its all very well talking about WHAT you would do when you get into power but another thing actually getting those policies through. If he failed to deliver the promise of free student loans for example, then his vote share would tumble dramatically. The irony about a Corbyn alliance is that he will need DUP support to govern. Will all those hammering on about DUP influence now be banging on about it when Corbyn needs their support? Think about that.

Well...

I am of the opinion that if may fails with the queens speech it will be largely down to tory rebels with a slightly longer term leadership/GE plan. I am of the opinion that should this 1% shot come to pass then a Corbyn led minority government will last 6 weeks at most before the inevitable vote of no confidence and the calling of a General election.

 

[Jippy]

All the worry about coalition government...

It's actually the norm in many countries - particularly inside the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_coalition_governments

The problems should be when the different parties can't agree a coalition. I say should be, because a couple of years ago Belgium's parties couldn't agree on a coalition, and for about 18 months there was no 'proper' government in power.

Amazing thing is that nobody actually seemed to notice.

That Belgian situation was really weird. It got a lot of attention in the bond markets, but had weirdly little impact.

 

[rpitchfo]

All the worry about coalition government...

It's actually the norm in many countries - particularly inside the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_coalition_governments

The problems should be when the different parties can't agree a coalition. I say should be, because a couple of years ago Belgium's parties couldn't agree on a coalition, and for about 18 months there was no 'proper' government in power.

Amazing thing is that nobody actually seemed to notice.

I agree with coalitions being the future and a more mature system of politics. America is a mess due to two party politics. I prefer broad churches but unfortunately the conservatives destroyed any hope of that by screwing the lib dems over.

 

[Mozza]

And whose fault was it that Labour polled so badly? That would be the same guy that didn't win them this election.

The papers, the Blairites

 

[Dobba]

Listened to John Pienaar get a real bashing from Ken Loach and Len McCluskey on the BBC attacks on Corbyn. Plus Steven Kinnock now saying if he was asked back into the shadow cabinet it would be a honour. If you can get it on BBC podcast it's a good listen.

I'm going to be so massively pissed off when these last few days turn out to all be a Mirtazapine influenced dream of mine.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Gosh you are a load of fun aren't you. Momentum (no pun) is important and Labour are in a position to win the next general election, I could never dream of saying that 6 weeks ago. It is a massive turnaround in a short space of time and what Labour need to do now is show unity, develop a proper plan and continue to kick on. The narrative when the election was called was RIP Labour, now the results have come out people are saying WE SHOULD HAVE WON! I fail to see how that narrative can even be considered, there is no other person in the Labour Party who would have released that manifesto nor would have galvanised the youth vote. I do understand where your worry comes from but I can't foresee this Government seeing out a full 5 year term.

In my mind Corbyn should be viewed as the dividing line between the negativity associated to the Labour Party as a result of WMD/Recession, he's the clean break from Blairism. This doesn't necessarily mean the whole party has to shift left but the centre of the party should take note of the resonant messages Corbyn delivered in his campaign and use them going forward.

The Tories are in between a rock and a hard place. They can't get rid of May because they've activated A50 and 3 leaders in 2 years with the backdrop of Brexit is easy political mileage for opposition. They are scared of another GE and they currently in a very precarious agreement with the DUP that risks further instability in NI and will most likely put Hard Brexit in the bin. All of this is a cocktail for Labour to continue to make ground on if they want. It all depends however, as Mockney said yesterday, on the reconciliation between the centre and left of the party.

Again the argument is we went into this election think we where going to get thrashed and ended up with a spirited defeat and thats a reason to be positive.

I also don' think the conservatives are in anyway near as hard a place as your making out, their in power, they are gonna be the ones doing the Brexit negotiations. they have the knowledge that even fighting the worst campaign ever seen they can still win. They also have a built in scape goat in May that if the Brexit negotiations go to shit they can hang out to dry and replace her.

You also talk about momentum, well their is no guarantee that keeps up between now and the next election that is going to keep up. Their is no way their is going to be another election till the Brexit negotiations have finished in 18 months, and between now and then the political landscape is going to change dramatically in ways we don't even know yet and this result and this momentum will seem like ancient history.

For me the, we didn't loose as bad as we though we might, is not a reason celebrate, considering how important this election was! Even if we do win next time, and manage to carry on this momentum, the damage the conservatives party can do in the next 2 to 5 years becuase of the important decisions that need to be made in that time which are gong to effect this country for decades is terrifying.

nope sorry i don't get the positivity.

 

[Full Member]

The papers, the Blairites

Ahhh yes. Classic case of blame everybody else. Corbyn wasn't good enough to outvote a prime minister who is being touted as the worst ever...

 

[rcoobc]

I really hope that the caf members that are slating the Con-DUP alliance and are worried about the concessions that will be demanded and granted will be also extending this same degree of hyperbole to a potential Lab-Lib-SNP-Green-Plaid-DUP coalition too.

Do you not think that concessions will have to be made here too? If not more? Before you know it, Corbyns wonderful policies will be watered down and he will soon upset people. Its all very well talking about WHAT you would do when you get into power but another thing actually getting those policies through. If he failed to deliver the promise of free student loans for example, then his vote share would tumble dramatically. The irony about a Corbyn alliance is that he will need DUP support to govern. Will all those hammering on about DUP influence now be banging on about it when Corbyn needs their support? Think about that.

A Labour, Liberal, SNP, Green, Plaid, DUP coalition is never going to happen, so get that out your head.

There are three options;

1) A Conservative Minority Government (best)
2) A Conservative Coalition
3) Another General Election

As for the rest of your hyperbole, I'm going to instead pretend you are thinking of a Labour-Lib-SNP-Green-Plaid coalition after a general election, that at least has some merit. Let's talk about what we could achieve with such a coalition

- A ban on fracking (Labour, Green, Lib Dem. - SNP and Plaid are cautious about it).
- Proportional Representation (Green, Lib Dem, SNP, Plaid)
- House of Lords reform (Lib Dem, SNP, Green, Plaid)
- At least staying in the Single Market (All of them)
- A reverse to the benefit cuts (All of them)
- Green policies (would have to go through each party piece by piece, but all of them in some description)
- A higher minimum wage (Labour, SNP, Green, Plaid)
- Scrapping tuition fees (Labour, SNP, Greens, Plaid)
- Probably, a higher Corporation Tax (SNP, Labour, Green)

 

[Full Member]

A Labour, Liberal, SNP, Green, Plaid, DUP coalition is never going to happen, so get that out your head.

There are three options;

1) A Conservative Minority Government (best)
2) A Conservative Coalition
3) Another General Election

As for the rest of your hyperbole, I'm going to instead pretend you are thinking of a Labour-Lib-SNP-Green-Plaid coalition after a general election, that at least has some merit. Let's talk about what we could achieve with such a coalition

- A ban on fracking (Labour, Green, Lib Dem. - SNP and Plaid are cautious about it).
- Proportional Representation (Green, Lib Dem, SNP, Plaid)
- House of Lords reform (Lib Dem, SNP, Green, Plaid)
- At least staying in the Single Market (All of them)
- A reverse to the benefit cuts (All of them)
- Green policies (would have to go through each party piece by piece, but all of them in some description)
- A higher minimum wage (Labour, SNP, Green, Plaid)
- Scrapping tuition fees (Labour, SNP, Greens, Plaid)
- Probably, a higher Corporation Tax (SNP, Labour, Green)

Lets hope that proportional representation doesn't go through hey?.. Labour would still not have the largest number of seats.

 

[Dobba]

Ahhh yes. Classic case of blame everybody else. Corbyn wasn't good enough to outvote a prime minister who is being touted as the worst ever...

Yep. Labour's pre-election polling was clearly absolutely nothing to do with all the resignations because someone who made them all look like the Red Tories they are was made leader, nothing to do with the constant media appearances from every two bob MP with a red rosette solely to tell the watching millions how bad Corbyn was, nothing to do with them pitching Owen Smith and his 29 inch inside leg as an electable alternative while he went on an apology tour for austerity, saying he wanted to 'smash May back on her heels' and that Corbyn was a lunatic, nothing to do with the right wing rags portraying him as a terrorist sympathiser day in day out for 2 years.

 

[Mozza]

Ahhh yes. Classic case of blame everybody else. Corbyn wasn't good enough to outvote a prime minister who is being touted as the worst ever...

Look where he started. She's only being touted like that because of her shit campaign, she was bullet proof 7 weeks ago, whilst he was the dead man walking

 

[Dobba]

Look where he started. She's only being touted like that because of her shit campaign, she was bullet proof 7 weeks ago, whilst he was the dead man walking

She still had polls saying she was set on securing the biggest landslide since Thatcher on the evening before the vote.

 

[rcoobc]

Lets hope that proportional representation doesn't go through hey?.. Labour would still not have the largest number of seats.

I'm not a Labour supporter. I'd love Proportional Representation.

Under PR we'd have that aforementioned coalition right now. (or at least Lib Dems, Labour and the SNP).

From left to right.

Green (1.6%), SNP (5.4%), Plaid (0.5%), Labour (40%), Lib Dems (7.4%).

That's 55% of the vote right there.


Who here would prefer a Conservative-DUP coalition to a Rainbow Coalition of the Left (the Coalition of 'Stability' vs the Coalition of Chaos)?

 

[Full Member]

Look where he started. She's only being touted like that because of her shit campaign, she was bullet proof 7 weeks ago, whilst he was the dead man walking

If there is another election, it will give the Tories time to run a new campaign and learn from the mistakes that were made. They are unlikely to do any worse than they currently have done so i fail to see how JC would do any better? Only recently his party were trying to get rid of him and Theresa May was enjoying a 20pt lead. What makes you think that Corbyn's stock wont plummet as fast as it has rose? Also... its one think campaigning but another thing leading. Anyone can say "i would do it this way or that way" but trying to execute it is another thing.

 

[Randall Flagg]

She has a bigger pair than I was expecting.

 

[Dobba]

If there is another election, it will give the Tories time to run a new campaign and learn from the mistakes that were made. They are unlikely to do any worse than they currently have done so i fail to see how JC would do any better? Only recently his party were trying to get rid of him and Theresa May was enjoying a 20pt lead. What makes you think that Corbyn's stock wont plummet as fast as it has rose? Also... its one think campaigning but another thing leading. Anyone can say "i would do it this way or that way" but trying to execute it is another thing.

Another great point you inadvertently made. Corbyn achieved what he did and created a youth movement, despite absolute no backing from any part of the established media or indeed his so called big hitters, during an election he had no time to prepare for. The arms dealing vicar's daughter has lost her big 'terrorist sympathiser' angle, the right wing rags have lost their influence and the Tories have spent the last few days flirting with a bunch of moronic bigots whose views will repulse even more people than fox hunting and the dementia tax did.

 

[Mozza]

If there is another election, it will give the Tories time to run a new campaign and learn from the mistakes that were made. They are unlikely to do any worse than they currently have done so i fail to see how JC would do any better? Only recently his party were trying to get rid of him and Theresa May was enjoying a 20pt lead. What makes you think that Corbyn's stock wont plummet as fast as it has rose? Also... its one think campaigning but another thing leading. Anyone can say "i would do it this way or that way" but trying to execute it is another thing.

That assumes the Tories learn the right lessons from this election, I have my doubts

 

[Full Member]

I'm not a Labour supporter. I'd love Proportional Representation.

Under PR we'd have that aforementioned coalition right now. (or at least Lib Dems, Labour and the SNP).

From left to right.

Green (1.6%), SNP (5.4%), Plaid (0.5%), Labour (40%), Lib Dems (7.4%).

That's 55% of the vote right there.


Who here would prefer a Conservative-DUP coalition to a Rainbow Coalition of the Left (the Coalition of 'Stability' vs the Coalition of Chaos)?

Reality check... the rest of the country's view does not reflect that of redcafe's members.

Also... what makes you believe that all those parties would be willing to get into coalition with Corbyn? The last time the lib dems done that they were severely punished the following election and have only just recovered. Not everyone in the country agrees that this will be a "rainbow coalition". Hence why the majority of the country voted for Theresa May and the Conservatives.

Anyway... its not going to matter realistically... the Conservatives and DUP hold a majority and likely will do for the next 5 years so theres no point in discussing something that wont happen.