And that doesn't work both ways?
Has political correctness actually gone mad?
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And that doesn't work both ways?
I'm amazed that people are offended by the change. I'm more amazed that these people then think of the people who campaigned for the change as eternal victims, attention seekers.
Literally nothing has changed for the worse in anyone's life because of this change. Possibly it is a change for the better for some people.
And yet there is resentment.
Literally nothing has changed for the worse in anyone's life because of this change. Possibly it is a change for the better for some people.
And yet there is resentment.
Not sure I could name one, tbh.
A bit trickier the other way. Certainly, as an outsider, it's not too easy to take the piss out of a minority and come out virtuous.
I'm not a victim.
Every time we do trans issues on this forum we start with jokes, then I turn up and tell people off for making jokes, then people debate with me, then people get bored of debating with me because I make them lose the will to live, then it devolves in to hypothetical nonsense and attempts to dismiss the issues without tackling them through accusations of attention seeking.
Maybe he is amused. "I don't find none of this funny" suggests that he maybe finds at least some of it funny.
The whole drama was ridiculous though.
Oh dear, you're gone all religious now.
Do elaborate, good sir.
I don't much care what the tube announcements say.
If there is a tiny group that feels hurt by "Ladies and Gentleman" I'd prefer to ignore them. Not because I'm bigoted. I just believe that sometimes people need to grow a spine. Life is routinely hard. If you've got time to worry about the wording of a tube announcement, you've got it pretty good.
Ladies and Gentleman is an all inclusive phrase because is was created in good intentions. It covers everyone. Not all women are ladies, not all men are gentleman. They are not qualifiers of gender so much as conduct.
Traveling across town last weekend the Tube was full of rainbows and glitter as people travelled to Pride. An elderly couple got on. I gave up my seat for the Lady. The Man remained standing. I nudged the girl next to me to jump up and let him sit. She looked at me, then looked the opposite way.
It was a microcosm of the whole damn issue. She would have jumped off the tube and started chanting or singing about the oppression of any number of marginalized groups, yet couldn't get her bum off a seat to let a pensioner sit down.
Bottom line, we can make arguments for inclusivity all we like. But there are assholes on all sides of every issue.
For what it's worth "Hello everyone" doesn't bother me. I'd just have rather seen it rolled out without any announcement or fanfare or press release. It shouldn't be seen as a 'Win' by any group or movement. Because it's not.
If there is a tiny group that feels hurt by "Ladies and Gentleman" I'd prefer to ignore them. Not because I'm bigoted. I just believe that sometimes people need to grow a spine. Life is routinely hard. If you've got time to worry about the wording of a tube announcement, you've got it pretty good.
Ladies and Gentleman is an all inclusive phrase because is was created in good intentions. It covers everyone. Not all women are ladies, not all men are gentleman. They are not qualifiers of gender so much as conduct.
Traveling across town last weekend the Tube was full of rainbows and glitter as people travelled to Pride. An elderly couple got on. I gave up my seat for the Lady. The Man remained standing. I nudged the girl next to me to jump up and let him sit. She looked at me, then looked the opposite way.
It was a microcosm of the whole damn issue. She would have jumped off the tube and started chanting or singing about the oppression of any number of marginalized groups, yet couldn't get her bum off a seat to let a pensioner sit down.
Bottom line, we can make arguments for inclusivity all we like. But there are assholes on all sides of every issue.
For what it's worth "Hello everyone" doesn't bother me. I'd just have rather seen it rolled out without any announcement or fanfare or press release. It shouldn't be seen as a 'Win' by any group or movement. Because it's not.
Virtuous?
Or you spend every day being rejected by a bigoted minority of society and it subsequently matters to you that our country's institutions are willing to make a minor change to show they are on your side.
Moral.
I'll admit that I can't see it as a win. But I can imagine that some people do.
I'm curious how you know it isn't.
Something like that shouldn't be heralded as a 'Win'. That suggests that there's a fight and that there are sides.
There is no movement pushing back.
One sub-set of humans gets annoyed at something and claims that it upsets them 'x' amount. That thing gets changed and they move on to something else.
That's not a win. There's no contest. The word would be achievement. Or progress. Or momentum. Or improvement.
Folks can say that they improved their awareness or standing or had their voice heard.
But drawing battle lines is only coming from one side. The 'oppressed' are all at once creating the oppression, railing against it, changing the world, then claiming they won something. It just such a low level of accomplishment.
What world is this?
There are no sides. Stop saying that.
The non 'normal' minority is already larger than the bigoted minority you speak of.
A world without this thread, in which this comment is....
Oooh, causality loop?
It's impossible to speak globally.
I'm assuming we're on-topic. ie We are discussing London.
Where do you live? If it's London, do you truly believe that there is an anti anything movement?
I'm in Brighton. We're as pro-LGBTQ+ as it gets here.
London is more progressive on trans rights than other parts of our country but that does not mean it doesn't have plenty of people who find trans people disgusting and more that find them ridiculous. Both are quite willing to share these views, despite this supposed PC gone mad culture that should mean they couldn't possibly without being ostracised.
Seriously, if you think it's more difficult to say 'I fecking hate trannies' than it is for a bloke to wear a dress, in London, you have no idea.
I can't agree. I don't think that trans people are seen as any more disgusting or ridiculous than Chavs, Essex Girls or any other niche of society.
That's the end point. The race is done and all that's left is a leveling out of normal. That will take a huge amount of time.
I've recruited a trans person. CV had a male name. She arrived in a dress looking 'feminine with question marks'. I didn't give a damn. It was a database role. Qualified enough, sensible head on her shoulders. We had a healthy chat about the role. Before signing the contract we had an honest conversation about gender. I made it abundantly clear that I couldn't do guesswork. If she had a problem with something or someone, I'd solve it. But I needed to know. It was plain sailing. I had a great attitude, as did the company, as did she.
It can't get fixed everywhere at the same time. If you're a fringe member of society and want to be somewhere that it doesn't matter, you have to move. If you're complaining about lack of trans acceptance in a Northern English village, you either wait 50 years for the town to catch up. Or you move to a place that lets you live a full life. That's not a trans statement. That applies for any person that cannot be their best self in the place that they were born. Happens all the time.
I didn't know that chavs and essex girls were being driven to suicide at astronomical rates.
That's what every generation says before being added to the cultural shame basket.
Comparing us to two other vilified groups is not the best defence against the idea of significant negative attitudes.
And, yes, I try not to beat this drum too often but it is most relevant.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16962898
One of my favourite towns. Just for info by the way, you're making some very good points.
It wasn't a defense. Do you understand and appreciate that it's impossible to go through life without being an outsider at some point?
If I go to a gym and start squatting 50kg there are seasoned lifters there having a giggle.
If an obese woman rocks up at a 5k and comes in dead last there will be some laughing and pointing.
There are literally endless examples of groups having pockets of arseholery that corrupt the whole.
Yes, it's hard to be someone that has an absolute core point of difference at the center of their being.
Acceptance for all across the board in every way, shape and form would be lovely. But it's just not happening. Ever.
There will always be a normal. That normal is defined by the majority. The issue is how the majority treats the minorities. Not how the minority-faction of the majority treats the minorities.
(Apologies for the last paragraph. It makes perfect sense but reads horrifically)
What are the causal factors of those suicides? It's such a complex issue. It can't be thrown in with this line of discussion. It's irresponsible.
Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. You've just listed some examples of 'othering' as if they are comparable and are now trying to dismiss the impact of it. Going as far as to declare it 'irresponsible' to bring it up.
What's irresponsible is pretending that LGBT people are only treated with the same light-hearted derision at chavs or essex girls. I can't recall the daily mail targeting a chav or essex girl to the point of suicide. Or them being chastised by family members, or worse - attacked and murdered for being chavs and essex girls. And within living memory - by the government.
That's not what happened.
Nor is that an example of 'Othering'
I'll add my qualifiers to keep you on-topic.
1. We were discussing London, as per the article.
2. I stated that Trans people could only be said to be ridiculed to a level that Chavs or Essex girls can be. That's not just a vanilla line. I have heard acquaintances say "This place is full of Essex girls". It's not always nice. But it's also not wholly evil.
My other posts have expanded my thoughts.
But it truly is irresponsible to start discussing rates of suicide in a single throwaway statement. Suicide can't just be thrown in like that to try and 'win'. It's daft.
Rates of Societal Acceptance of trans people may or may not have a direct correlation to rates of suicide. I'd be happy to read a study that supports this. Maybe something that compares it to that of gay men or something closer to the issue. You can pick. I'll read.
Both of you replying to me know at heart that I was not comparing trans struggles to Essex girls.
The lens used was that of a Londoner. Most people I know would move away from a gobby chav talking on the phone. They wouldn't move away from a guy in a dress. We are so far past that. That doesn't mean that I believe the trans person leads an easier life.
That's not what I did. I've explained in the post above.
Sorry if that's how you took it, but that's not what happened.
Which is clearly absolute nonsense and even when faced with the suicide statistics that suggest this you declare them to be irrelevant to the point of irresponsibility because you're yet to see enough comparative studies - when your only evidence is your own personal views.
It's not nonsense.
Maybe I'm just fortunate to have cultivated a great social circle. When someone enters it, they don't have to 'Be' anything. Anything goes.
The same is true for my workplaces.
If you fail to see how rates of suicide are not part of the discussion we were having then I can't help you.
You seem to be allowing yourself to believe that I'm dismissing it as irrelevant. I'm not. Any suicide is horrifying. But it's not relevant to our discussion without statistics and context. That's not a horrible thing to say.
This is clearly a hot button issue for you. We probably need to leave it there. It feels that we're moving further apart rather than closer together.
There's a difference between being 'outraged' by something, and being usefully pro-active in a campaign for acknowledgement. I doubt many trans people are spitting feathers and tearing their hair out over the centuries old use of "Ladies and Gentlemen" on the tube....
Even if they were, how would you go about pushing for a change from the long-established norm, without being seeing as whiny and unreasonable in some quarters? Would you just keep asking nicely? Does anyone know that didn't happen?
Besides, surely the question shouldn't be who was offended by Ladies and Gentlemen? and rather who the hell his offended by Hello Everyone?
Even if they were, how would you go about pushing for a change from the long-established norm, without being seeing as whiny and unreasonable in some quarters? Would you just keep asking nicely? Does anyone know that didn't happen?
Besides, surely the question shouldn't be who was offended by Ladies and Gentlemen? and rather who the hell his offended by Hello Everyone?
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To be clear, you think 'chavs' and 'Essex girls' face discrimination that can be compared to trans people?
No. I do not. You've completely reframed what I said.
This was my original comment.
"I don't think that trans people are seen as any more disgusting or ridiculous than Chavs, Essex Girls or any other niche of society"
I'm sorry that you and Silva are whipping yourselves into a frenzy over it.
Do remember that your original words were 'Disgusting and ridiculous'. I merely used them comparatively.
I have qualified my comments every single time.
You're also routinely taking a single paragraph of my response and attacking it. Try to take the whole. The prior and previous text will always be relevant. I wrote them for a reason.
I clearly misunderstood. How exactly is it relevant that you think chavs and essex girls face the views you describe, if you don't think their discrimination is comparable to trans people?
I'm in no frenzy. I doubt Silva is. We don't sleep well, so we're liable to go for any debate going, this time of night, just to pass the time.
I do have a tendency to quote particular parts of people's posts and ignore the rest. Only when I fail to see the relevance of a point. If there's anything you feel I overlooked that deserved more attention, do repeat it.
Wait until left-handed people start demanding equal rights and nondiscrimination for their left-handedness.