Is it fair to worship Guardiola at this point? | The Ball Did It

[Treble]

He arrived to take over what most people thought was the strongest squad in the PL, a squad partly shaped by ex-Barca football management. He spent 190m in his first season. His team started out last season looking like winners and got worse. That's the thing. It's not that they didn't excel, they didn't even look as good as the squad sheet said they were and as their opening games said they were, and they got worse.

So, yes, criticism is due. If not yet of Guardioala's teambuilding abilities, then of the idea that he can make good players into a great team by making the best of them.

The season is young, another couple of hundred million spent, some very obvious talent on display, but still not much use being made of it. It will take time to gel, it's bound to take time. But right now, it's not Pep's purchases who are shining, and it's not his tactical acumen that's beating opponents. Which is interesting and worthy of criticism. He hasn't failed, not yet, but then he hasn't actually done anything worth praising either.

Those people were blatantly wrong though. Their squad wasn't good enough. It had many 30 + players, half of them made the first XI in most league games. His main mistake in the first season was Bravo's signing, it cost them many points.

 

[KM]

Those people were blatantly wrong though. Their squad wasn't good enough. It had many 30 + players, half of them made the first XI in most league games. His main mistake in the first season was Bravo's signing, it costed them many points.

That same squad had just won the league just two years ago. So there can actually be a good case of that squad being one of the best if not the best.

 

[SilentWitness]

I think he's a hugely egotistical man which may be a result of the questions that have been made of him during his Barcelona tenure - Is it the players or Guardiola? This has made him play weirdo formations/team selections that just don't work. They were playing with one natural CM yesterday ffs. It offers no protection for their defence and if they try and do it against better sides they'll be found out. Us and Bournemouth could have won against them - one side that was clearly mentally fatigued from Europa league and another side that's potentially going to be in a relagation battle.

 

[Peanut Butter]

Pip Guardiola is a strange man.

 

[Treble]

That same squad had just won the league just two years ago. So there can actually be a good case of that squad being one of the best if not the best.

2 years is a lot of time though. That title was their swan song. They won as many pts as United the next season despite United being rubbish under LVG.

 

[andersj]

A lot of people (myself included) thought there were a lot of silly criticisms of Guardiola (e.g. a mannequin could've won the treble with Barca) prior to coming to the PL. In his first few months his team was playing some unbelievable football and steaming through teams. Since then they've looked devoid of ideas, inspiration and quality in a lot of areas on a lot of occasions. Plus Guardiola looks on the verge of a mental breakdown...

What's everyone's take on him at this stage?

I would probably say a good manager with serious limitations. The most overrated in my lifetime. It is more apparant then ever how much he rely on big signings and star players.

He would not be able to get the results Ferguson did, by developing a team and young players, making the team and every single player maximize their potential. And I actually doubt he would be able to do what Pochettino have done at Spurs for the past few years. Or Klopp at either Dortmund or Liverpool. Or even Wenger at Arsenal for most of his carrier.

I believe he was very lucky with that Barcelona-team, and that they where a match made in heaven. He got the best out of that bunch of players, as they suited his style, and they got the best out of him. A mixture of luck and timing. Then he went to a team with a new golden generation in front of them; the best team in world football. They did not suit his style as much, and he failed to improve them.

He then decided to go to England at a time when most of the big teams where struggeling. He went to a club that probably had the best players in the league, and that he knew would be able to spend more than any of the other teams.

To me Pep Guardiola is not just an overrated coach. He is a covard.

 

[KM]

2 years is a lot of time though. That title was their swan song. They won as many pts as United the next season despite United being rubbish under LVG.

Agreed, but that's why Pellegrini was sacked as he found out to be quite average at the end of his term. When Pep came in and with the signings, most of the pundits/journalist etc rated them as title winners.

Anyway I've voted that he's a very good manager but with serious limitations. I think that completely sums up my view about him. I'd rate Mourinho as the same btw.

 

[Treble]

I would probably say a good manager with serious limitations. The most overrated in my lifetime. It is more apparant then ever how much he rely on big signings and star players.

He would not be able to get the results Ferguson did, by developing a team and young players, making the team and every single player maximize their potential. And I actually doubt he would be able to do what Pochettino have done at Spurs for the past few years. Or Klopp at either Dortmund or Liverpool. Or even Wenger at Arsenal for most of his carrier.

I believe he was very lucky with that Barcelona-team, and that they where a match made in heaven. He got the best out of that bunch of players, as they suited his style, and they got the best out of him. A mixture of luck and timing. Then he went to a team with a new golden generation in front of them; the best team in world football. They did not suit his style as much, and he failed to improve them.

He then decided to go to England at a time when most of the big teams where struggeling. He went to a club that probably had the best players in the league, and that he knew would be able to spend more than any of the other teams.

To me Pep Guardiola is not just an overrated coach. He is a covard.

Who doesn't? Zidane has the best squad in the world. Barcelona had the best attacking trio ever. Bayern have incredible squad too, Jose is signing stars too.

The requiement that Guardiola should win the league with a past it squad and compete for the CL at the same time is ludicrous.

 

[FCBarca]

You'd have to ask him, his comments were about Sterling going to the crowd after he scored yesterday.

To the crowd, which was on the field

 

[duffer]

To the crowd, which was on the field

I guess you didn't actually see the incident, here it is. Sterling went to the crowd and got a yellow for it. None of the fans were on the field.


Because sterling went to the crowd they all piled forward and some ended up on the pitch (which is exactly why it's a yellow card offense).

 

[Mister_Stubbs]

When you chime in that 'had Jose done that' you're indeed making the comparson. I'd remind you that Pep, unlike Jose, has never been disrespectful to opposing coaches, players or officials - yes, he has mannerisms that people love to focus on and even mock. There are even plenty of vids of him as coach of Barcelona with those mannerisms and not only are they amusing but they also show how passionate he is about the game - this isn't polo and he's hardly like El Loco himself in that regard.

Moreover, he has a right to feel aggrieved, their club have been on the wrong end of decisions since he's arrived and to start the season losing two key players for nothing well even the most composed will feel done in. There's not just an agenda from opposing fans on him but also the officiating & media

I don't even know where to begin. Did you not see the way he was with Eddie Howe yesterday? He was ranting and raving to him no end. Isn't that classed as being a bit "disrespectful"?

Secondly, Jesus fecking wept. Every club has reasons to feel aggrieved even after three games. City like every team benefit from decisions just as much as decisions go against them. Now I know being a Barcelona fan that might seem a bit strange to you given how many bullshit decisions you lot tend to get over others and being a part time city fan as you come across it's easy to see why you are getting really confused in the matter. Are you seriously suggesting that Pep and City are more hard done by the officials and the media?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I guess you didn't actually see the incident, here it is. Sterling went to the crowd and got a yellow for it. None of the fans were on the field.


Because sterling went to the crowd they all piled forward and some ended up on the pitch (which is exactly why it's a yellow card offense).

Yeah 100% a yellow. He contributed significantly to a crowd disturbance.

 

[FCBarca]

I guess you didn't actually see the incident, here it is. Sterling went to the crowd and got a yellow for it. None of the fans were on the field.

I guess you can't see very well even with a video clip then because he didnt go into the stands, the fans were on the pitch

 

[Needham]

Wonder if an away win at Bournemouth edges a 2-2 homed draw with Everton as the greatest day in his life.

 

[JASR]

Another cheque book manager like rest of them.

Indeed.

When playing the most expensive starting lineup the PL has yet seen...you'd expect some criticism levelled at the team...the cheque book manager, the owner, the plastic fans, the mercenary players... coming from the media (news and social)

... but not when the most expensive lineup had kicked off at home at 5.30 on Saturday.

 

[duffer]

I guess you can't see very well even with a video clip then because he didnt go into the stands, the fans were on the pitch

Into the stands? What are you talking about? Nobody has said he did that.

He's run right up to the barricade and is hugging the fans. That caused other fans to run down and some spilled onto the pitch.

 

[FCBarca]

Into the stands? What are you talking about? Nobody has said he did that.

He's run right up to the barricade and is hugging the fans. That caused other fans to run down and some spilled onto the pitch.

What barricade, the fans were literally on the pitch, what is so difficult to understand there - the only barrier there was thin air

 

[Adisa]

I have a feeling tlCobte will do a number on him in two weeks.
I still reckon they will win the league.

 

[duffer]

What barricade, the fans were literally on the pitch, what is so difficult to understand there - the only barrier there was thin air

The fans are behind the advertising hoardings. The players are on the other side. Sterling runs up to hoarding which causes some fans to pile forward.

Look at the video I posted please, there are no fans on the pitch until after Sterling is at the advertising board which is the barrier between the fans and players.

Please don't bother quoting me again if you are either not going to watch the clip or just lie about what it clearly shows.

 

[Bruno Marques]

I'd remind you that Pep, unlike Jose, has never been disrespectful to opposing coaches, players or officials

HAHAHAHHAH. Man, such a fanboy. I cant stand these type of ppl. Just search the internet and you can find when Pep was disrespectful.

From no complimenting Cristiano at a uefa gala to not giving the ball to wayne rooney. That's disrespectful and you are trying to wash that.

 

[Sky1981]

A very good but one trick pony manager.

He can't adapt very well, his blueprints is still barcelona of 2009 which he can't utilise to the fullest without the same personnel.

 

[KM]

Indeed.

When playing the most expensive starting lineup the PL has yet seen...you'd expect some criticism levelled at the team...the cheque book manager, the owner, the plastic fans, the mercenary players... coming from the media (news and social)

... but not when the most expensive lineup had kicked off at home at 5.30 on Saturday.

Have you been keeping your head in the sand for the last few years? Are you really saying that Mourinho hasn't had criticism for being a cheque book manager.

I know you City fans get most of your coverage out of bluemoon so it's not a surprise to see you being oblivious to what's written in the media and living in some kind of fantasy world where all media are biased towards the 'rags' but the reality is quite different.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

@do.ob
Its not a slow start, its a continuation of their play since October last year.
There is no summer reset button ffs

There is when you spend the money they've spent!

 

[Adisa]

The best managers of the game show their quality at more than one club. Jury is still out on Pep (and Klopp) for this reasons. He's spent an astronomical amount of money on a side that most people thought already had a huge amount of quality. Make or break season and they've started poorly. Which is, obviously, delightful to watch.

Is it really a make or break season?
I can't see him getting sacked, even if he fails to win anything this season.

 

[Mister_Stubbs]

Indeed.

When playing the most expensive starting lineup the PL has yet seen...you'd expect some criticism levelled at the team...the cheque book manager, the owner, the plastic fans, the mercenary players... coming from the media (news and social)

... but not when the most expensive lineup had kicked off at home at 5.30 on Saturday.

And won comfortable as they have done in the opening 3 games whilst the messiah and his squad of mercenaries have looked less than convincing despite many in the media claiming they'd walk the league, just like they did last season.. oh wait.

And yes, I'm being slightly over the top with that but I find it somewhat funny when a City fan who lets remember, would have been playing away at Rochdale this weekend if it weren't for the billions their sugar daddy pumped in to the club comes on to a Man Utd fans forum just to make a point about how much our starting lineup cost.

 

[led_scholes]

Why people mention that he struggled during his Bayern tenure? He won the league comfortably and reached the semis 3 times. If these criteria makes him a failure at Bayern I wonder what opinion some of you have about SAF. I don't like Pep's football, even at Barca I hated it, but he has the x factor like Jose, Ancelotti etc otherwise he wouldn't have achieved so many things. And like Pep, Jose, apart from his early years, Ancelotti and so many others don't choose to go to bankrupt teams. Juve, Real Madrid, the Milans, Manchester, Chelsea, PSG are surely not the paupers of football! The only ones of the big names who prefer to work with these terms are Kloop and Wenger, and in the end they always sound bitter and miserable.

 

[RedRover]

Who doesn't? Zidane has the best squad in the world. Barcelona had the best attacking trio ever. Bayern have incredible squad too, Jose is signing stars too.

The requiement that Guardiola should win the league with a past it squad and compete for the CL at the same time is ludicrous.

Spot on. Any United fans levelling this kind of criticism need to recognise the hypocrisy of it.

 

[Stocar]

I admire managers like him, who are idealistic, brave and imaginative. Have no doubt he would be able to make this City side play more basic, run-of-the-mill football like 99% of other managers, and achieve better results last season. He obviously has the authority and knowledge to make the high level team play the way he wants. But he sets the goals so high, and perhaps risk to reward ratio of his approach is not optimal. But when it works, it is fantastic and different.

Arguably there is a weakness in his system even when it works perfectly. It's the knock-out ties with other top teams. Over the course of the league quality prevails, but cup competitions bring out cut-throat and opportunistic nature of football to the fore. His Barcelona side was comfortably a class above any other team, yet they won 2 out of 4 CL, losing to highly opportunistic and conservative teams. Same thing happened with his Bayern side in the same competition, although they played best football in Europe at the time IMO. But whatever, if there were more coaches like him (or Bielsa, Sarri, Zeman etc.) football would be much better.

 

[FCBarca]

I admire managers like him, who are idealistic, brave and imaginative. Have no doubt he would be able to make this City side play more basic, run-of-the-mill football like 99% of other managers, and achieve better results last season. He obviously has the authority and knowledge to make the high level team play the way he wants. But he sets the goals so high, and perhaps risk to reward ratio of his approach is not optimal. But when it works, it is fantastic and different.

Arguably there is a weakness in his system even when it works perfectly. It's the knock-out ties with other top teams. Over the course of the league quality prevails, but cup competitions bring out cut-throat and opportunistic nature of football to the fore. His Barcelona side was comfortably a class above any other team, yet they won 2 out of 4 CL, losing to highly opportunistic and conservative teams. Same thing happened with his Bayern side in the same competition, although they played best football in Europe at the time IMO. But whatever, if there were more coaches like him (or Bielsa, Sarri, Zeman etc.) football would be much better.

Well reasoned, agreed

 

[Cal?]

I admire managers like him, who are idealistic, brave and imaginative. Have no doubt he would be able to make this City side play more basic, run-of-the-mill football like 99% of other managers, and achieve better results last season. He obviously has the authority and knowledge to make the high level team play the way he wants. But he sets the goals so high, and perhaps risk to reward ratio of his approach is not optimal. But when it works, it is fantastic and different.

Arguably there is a weakness in his system even when it works perfectly. It's the knock-out ties with other top teams. Over the course of the league quality prevails, but cup competitions bring out cut-throat and opportunistic nature of football to the fore. His Barcelona side was comfortably a class above any other team, yet they won 2 out of 4 CL, losing to highly opportunistic and conservative teams. Same thing happened with his Bayern side in the same competition, although they played best football in Europe at the time IMO. But whatever, if there were more coaches like him (or Bielsa, Sarri, Zeman etc.) football would be much better.

Not sure if serious.

 

[Kentonio]

I admire managers like him, who are idealistic, brave and imaginative. Have no doubt he would be able to make this City side play more basic, run-of-the-mill football like 99% of other managers, and achieve better results last season. He obviously has the authority and knowledge to make the high level team play the way he wants. But he sets the goals so high, and perhaps risk to reward ratio of his approach is not optimal. But when it works, it is fantastic and different.

Playing an entire match while dancing to a samba beat would also be brave and different, but also not particularly smart.

Football is about winning. If you're not winning despite having the players available to win, then you're not being brave, you're being either stupid or inept. Pep's insistence on playing to his favourite system despite it not suiting the league he's playing in shows that he's leaning towards stupid.

 

[Stocar]

Football is about winning.

Yes, but not only about winning. If it was only about that, there wouldn't be reason for any other sport to exist besides the most basic ones like athletics. Some people care more about other aspects of the game besides winning, what's wrong with that? I honestly find obsession with winning at all cost a bit dull.

 

[Kentonio]

Yes, but not only about winning. If it was only about that, there wouldn't be reason for any other sport to exist besides the most basic ones like athletics. Some people care more about other aspects of the game besides winning, what's wrong with that? I honestly find obsession with winning at all cost a bit dull.

The innovation and tactical bravery come from finding interesting new ways to win. A radical system that no-one has seen before that makes old ways of playing obsolete is extremely fascinating and exciting and earns managers plaudits and fame. At the end of the day though if the new system doesn't bring success then what's the point in it? If Pep played a 1-2-7 formation it would certainly be innovative, but when he then lost every game should we still applaud him for it and call him brave?

 

[Stocar]

The innovation and tactical bravery come from finding interesting new ways to win. A radical system that no-one has seen before that makes old ways of playing obsolete is extremely fascinating and exciting and earns managers plaudits and fame. At the end of the day though if the new system doesn't bring success then what's the point in it? If Pep played a 1-2-7 formation it would certainly be innovative, but when he then lost every game should we still applaud him for it and call him brave?

I think he is confident that in the long run his system is the winning one. And, after all, he had some decent success with it. And while it may have some flaws, and doesn't always have to succeed in the end, I admire the persistent idealism and willingness to take risk. It makes football more interesting.

 

[AshRK]

When you chime in that 'had Jose done that' you're indeed making the comparson. I'd remind you that Pep, unlike Jose, has never been disrespectful to opposing coaches, players or officials - yes, he has mannerisms that people love to focus on and even mock. There are even plenty of vids of him as coach of Barcelona with those mannerisms and not only are they amusing but they also show how passionate he is about the game - this isn't polo and he's hardly like El Loco himself in that regard.

Moreover, he has a right to feel aggrieved, their club have been on the wrong end of decisions since he's arrived and to start the season losing two key players for nothing well even the most composed will feel done in. There's not just an agenda from opposing fans on him but also the officiating & media

If jose shows passion he is a cnut but if pep shows passion it's because he loves the game. You can keep the peps glasses on but the fact remains pep gets away with most of the things compared to jose. Jose is no saint but neither are other managers

 

[FCBarca]

If jose shows passion he is a cnut but if pep shows passion it's because he loves the game. You can keep the Leo's glasses on but the fact remains pep gets away with most of the things compared to jose. Jose is no saint but neither are other managers

Passion, sure but you & I both know Jose has done more than show passion that fell far outside the boundaries of respect

 

[AshRK]

Passion, sure but you & I both know Jose has done more than show passion that fell far outside the boundaries of respect

You act as if jose has gone to kill players and staffs. Jose has done some bad things and he has been punished for those but the problem is even when jose does some small things, like kicking a bottle, bullying refs, complaining, fighting with managers , he gets more attention compared to pep or klopp although other managers also have done similar things . Pep has been sarcastically applauding refs , why doesn't he get the same treatment now. Klopp goes on screaming at the refs but why doesn't he get the ban or abuse from media.

I am glad slowly but surely some section of journalists are realising pep is no saint. Don't get me wrong a very good manager but he is no saint.

 

[KM]

Yes, but not only about winning. If it was only about that, there wouldn't be reason for any other sport to exist besides the most basic ones like athletics. Some people care more about other aspects of the game besides winning, what's wrong with that? I honestly find obsession with winning at all cost a bit dull.

So Pep spending all that money is because he wants to play stylish football? Not winning at all cost? Alright then. This glorification of Pep is amusing.

I mean Klopp playing even more attacking football with a more risk to reward approach whilst spending less money and yet we don't hear him being talked about as an innovator/philosopher/dreamer etc.

 

[AshRK]

Who doesn't? Zidane has the best squad in the world. Barcelona had the best attacking trio ever. Bayern have incredible squad too, Jose is signing stars too.

The requiement that Guardiola should win the league with a past it squad and compete for the CL at the same time is ludicrous.

Yet it's always jose who has been termed as a cheque book manager whereas pep as some youth promoter. He has promoted feck all from the academy. All the things we accepted or the media have proclaimed him to be has been proven wrong. That is why people say he is overrated. Overrated does not mean he is average but the way he is proclaimed as some best ever manager is not correct. Nothing he did in his first season was special.

 

[anant]

Yes, but not only about winning. If it was only about that, there wouldn't be reason for any other sport to exist besides the most basic ones like athletics. Some people care more about other aspects of the game besides winning, what's wrong with that? I honestly find obsession with winning at all cost a bit dull.

I agree that style is important. I, myself won't mind a trophyless season as long as we play scintillating football and is one of the main reasons why I like Wenger as well. But, once you have spent 350m or so in 2 seasons, results do take the priority. I mean you can't justify spending those amounts and then coming up with the excuse that we played good football. Even Bournemouth plays good football and I doubt they've spent this amount in their entire history.