A lot less people were doing it 18 years ago I'd imagine. My friends go there fully expecting to be queuing for 2-4 hours minimum each time here in Lyon. Plus things like my teacher friend only legally being allowed to hold 2 consecutive posts under the visa they gave her before having to leave. It's much more complex than just 'apply for a visa and everything will be fine'.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
A lot less people were doing it 18 years ago I'd imagine. My friends go there fully expecting to be queuing for 2-4 hours minimum each time here in Lyon. Plus things like my teacher friend only legally being allowed to hold 2 consecutive posts under the visa they gave her before having to leave. It's much more complex than just 'apply for a visa and everything will be fine'.
Must be a French thing, my Serbian colleagues seem to have little issues. they've held long jobs in china, Singapore and all over Europe. Their goal is entry to the UK I might add.
Regardless of what she can say, I don't think most of the population is BA, MA, PHD and lecturer in prestigious universities. Erasmus is not about formal education, it goes well beyond that and the values that the people and personal growth and SPECIALLY getting to know the "historical enemies" and tighten Europeans viewings as a whole, not you are German, you are English, you are Greek, you are Italian, etc...And that, to not repeat the mistakes of the past I think is very important.
Nobody gives flying feck about "Russels". I even had to google it. Not every one of those universities is Cambridge or Oxford. And yes, they will care. It will be harder for their students to go abroad and they will lose people who would consider studying there because it's easier to go elsewhere in the Union.
This is exactly what people mean when they tell you you live in the past. The U.K. isnt an Empire anymore. And there are more than enough excellent universities abroad.
You know, I actually agree with you.
On the other hand, if that's what the students want and the EU is trying so hard to achieve, then maybe the students should just take a Gap Year and go work as as a waiter or whatever in another EU country instead of letting the Tax Payers pick up the bill for a year's pseudo learning. It would be interesting to ask the EU whether they would pay for EU students to spend a year travelling around the world outside of the EU to achieve their personal growth and get to know better ' historical enemies ' You know - the British students could spend a year in USA or Japan ; the French students could spend a year in Vietnam or the Maghreb ; the Spanish students could spend a year in South America ; the German students ?? You tell me, because I don't recall Germany ever having historical enemies before the 20th century, in which case ERASMUS suits just fine and is maybe why you see it that way.
So....Do you think the EU should and would encourage this ? And fund this ?
I don't think so - but why not if that is the object of ERASMUS ?
As for your ' Not German, not English, not Greek ', etc....
Like I said before - the EU would love everyone to just be homogenous, EU citizens. But that is just never going to happen. Hell, in the UK, most of the Scots don't even want to be British citizens ; in Spain the Catalans don't want to be Spanish ; in Belgium most of the Walloons don't want to be Belgian. Maybe some of the Germans are more open to giving up their German identity and nationality in favour of single-one-for-everyone EU nationality, but they're in a very small minority if they are. Frau FBR most certainly wouldn't.
ERASMUS is mroe than your second year bachelor student partying in Barcelona, you know.....it also enables you to study at one University, but writing your master thesis at another (friend of mine studied an Paris, but did her master thesis at my university, likewise another friend of mine studied at my university but did his bachelor thesis in Rennes because there was a professor more suited to his thematics). It enables you to switch subjects and universities with relative ease throughout Europe, while being able to keep most of your done courses etc....
And yes, this only works with FOM, because it ensures no country tries to gain a benefit from that.
Exactly the shitty half-knowledge and "common places" that lead to Brexit, right there.
Aahh...But British people do - even if Germans don't.
But then again, British people are not too interested in which are the good and which are the not-so-good German universities and would have to Google them also.
You really must learn to think beyond Germany and everything German....Really.....
I do. That's why I wouldn't tell you, in case Germany would be in UK's place, that we don't care about losing ECTS and Eramus because "Ah, the Exzellenzuniversitäten don't need this!".
Because sure as hell your response wouldn't be "yes you are right, everyone wants to go to Konstanz regardless if it would be easier to just go to Madrid."
The Exzellenzuniversitäten are, by design, a more exclusive club than your Russells by the way.
You must be so sincerely happy that the UK is leaving the EU.
But who will you, FCBForever, then turn your angst and hostility against after they leave ?
Eastwards next time ?
Angst? Hostility? Against whom? I don't give a shit, I'm just amazed how a country as a whole can be dumb enough to let its future decades fortune be decided by a single, simple majority vote. And I'm quite happy to provide you with knowledge you quite clearly lack.
Am I happy? No. I would have preferred the UK to stay.
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To be fair, it's not the country as a whole.
And then things got better. It's called progress
So now, in true EU style, you want to change the UK's democratic voting and referendum sytems as well ? Which they've used for about 400 years ?
You really prefer the UK uses the the German system ? One that lets a party like the AfD take 13% of parliamentary seats ?
Look....The British know that you Germans have one of the world's best economies, if not THE best ; they know that you Germans make the world's best cars ; they know that Germany makes the world's best beer ; they know that Germany makes the world's best machine tools ; they know that Germany's designer clothes are just as fashionable and better quality than French and Italian clothing ; they know that Germany has most of the best architects and construction companies in the world ; some will even agree with the phrase ' There's only three rules of football - There's one ball, 22 players and Germany always win ' ; some of us would even go so far as to agree that Germany has the best looking, most elegant women over 45, but I have to say that because Frau FBR will no doubt read this later...
On the other hand, the British don't really feel the need for your own personal advice about what is best for the British, however much you rant about ' a country as a whole can be so dumb '....
Just stick to your own problems - like the AfD and the million or so immigrants that Frau Fatarse let into the EU without the approriate vetting and security checks and which the EU is now trying to disperse around the EU with threats of members' expulsion if they don't take the number off your hands that the EU has decided they must take.
And I am absolutely sure that I lack some of the knowledge that you so obviously have - but that's made up by the fact that I'm actually a really nice guy and not a stereotypical know-it-all-because-I'm-German, German.
Ah, so it's fine to be clueless and still claim you know better because you are a nice guy, while at the same time implying Germans are 'not nice' and using personal insults.
I have personally been called out as German by someone who didn't like me pointing out their utter incompetence (hint: I'm not). This post reminds of that instance.
Since I'm on my phone with shitty internet right now (thanks DB) I just wanna ask one think: you complain about the AfD but seem to be supportive of the Tories, which are essentially the British AfD these days? If the U.K. Was Germany, you Chancellor would be Petry, your Foreign Secretary Alice Weidel and Gauland would be lurking in the background to take over ...
Regardless, yes, I do prefer a parliamentary system which at least tried to mirror the vote of the people.
And yes; direct democracy as excerzised in Britian is dumb as feck. It's tyranny of the majority at its worst. This has got nothing to do with the EU, that's just my opinion as a political scientist.
And I'm quite happy to provide you with knowledge you quite clearly lack.
Ah, so it's fine to be clueless
You mentioned personal insults ?
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Why are you having go at Germans, has your wife given you a hard time
Non bidding referendums have been introduced in 1975 by the Referendum Act 1975, referendums in the UK don't have a 400 years old history but a 42 years old one.
Didn't you know the British people voted on the results of the Vienna conference?
Clueless is not really an insult unless you are insecure about your knowledge. That is addressing how informed you are on the subject. I am happy to say I'm clueless on a lot of subjects, especially huge ones like EU membership because it is such a compex issue and so few people understand it.
Attacking someone's character as nice or not is a bit different which is what I pulled you on. As I've said multiple times, demonising the other side is not what wins you arguments and this is what won the referendum hence why I was so agaisnt Brexit. It was an emotional rather than a rational decision.
Frankly, EU were paying 100 EUR a month for me. Yes, definetely I think is worth it. As well we had other programs interSpain and programs worldwide. They were not ERASMUS but the concept was the same (and better funded than ERASMUS). It makes sense that is EU, because of proximity and to strengthen the union through the people.
When I am talking about Not German, not English, not Greek ', etc....I am not saying to abandon the identity, FFS, I am a hardcore catalan independentist and because of identity, not for economic reasons. what I mean for that is that since 20 years ago, we barely knew our neighbours and we looked at them in a suspicious way. When I was in Erasmus I was nice to spanish, because I am nice, but in politics I was a complete dick. And I learn a lot about spanish, as I did with other nationalities. Is not about losing the identity. Is about to respect and love other identities and be capable to work with them.
I have NO DOUBT, that Erasmus had done the best for the integration in the EU than anyother one. And that will be seen in the future. And you can see that with which is the age group that voted the most in % against Brexit. The next generations grew with more love for the EU, but unfortunately, they had to go against a group of age that they will die in 5-10 years and they only remember a shadow of a British Empire that was subjugating half of the world and the other half thought you were jerks
She's always giving me hard time....Today no more than usual....
And no, not specifically having a go at Germans ....Just at what I perceive to be constant put-downs of the UK by FCB....You and I probably agree that too much in the UK is broken, and is why we'd never go back. But it wasn't broken by the Referendum result - it's been teetering for a couple of generations, fur coat and no knickers, and FCB is, in my opinion, barking up the wrong tree to keep blaming the UK's present and future problems on BREXIT and, now, tonight, on the UK voting system. That's all....
Apologies...just bad wording - voting system in use for 400 years
OK...Let's kiss and make up...Then I can answer your questions....
The Tories ( and Labour ) have racists amongst their ranks - no doubt - but are not a one-objective-in-disguise party as are the AfD and the FN here.
Don't forget the majority of Tory MPs and Ministers at the time of the referendum were in favour of staying in the EU - including maintaining FoM and the ECJ, which they supported as part of the full EU package. I'm not, and never have been, and probably never would be a Tory voter, but I'll defend the current Tory party and ministers if they get called xenophobes or racists because they were instructed by the majority of those who voted that they wanted out of the EU
Anyway, there was a democratic vote - REMAIN or LEAVE the EU....Blame Cameron if you want, but there were no other options on the ballet paper - no third or fourth such as ' Stay if the EU agrees to change whatever ' or ' Leave only if the EU will not agree to change whatever '.....
As we've all said, so often, there were lies and counter-lies from both sides during the debate and some people were hoodwinked into voting LEAVE, and others scared shitless into voting REMAIN.
But what is often forgotten, although there were millions in the UK who are fervently pro-EU, like most of the posters on here, who could see through the lies of the LEAVE campaign, there were just as many millions ( who knows, perhaps a million or so more and hence the eventual result ) who don't like what the EU is, what it imposes on its members, and where it's heading, ( like just a couple of us on here ) and so voted LEAVE irrespective of the lies and scaremongering from both sides.
If you like democracy, then it's natural to accept that in a two option, binary vote, the majority are the winners.
However, don't forget that the Referendum was a no less democratic vote than the UK has had for years ( well, JP, since the Referendum a few years ago on changing the voting system in the UK to a sort of Proportional Representation - and was rejected ) and is in line with the UK's 'First Past the Post ' electoral system for Parliamentary elections.
You may continue to believe that ' direct democracy as excerzised in Britian is dumb as feck. It's tyranny of the majority at its worst ' but when offered the chance to change that system, the majority in UK said No Thanks.
There you are, really....It's a different concept than most other countries voting systems, but the UK has it and shouldn't really be called out for it just because it's different.
As a political scientist, you would know that Germans didn't invent their system of voting it was forced on them by the victorious powers because of the terrible record and lack of trust in the way and for whom Germans voted in the past and the problems that caused. IE the German system was designed by outsiders deliberately to not exactly reflect the way Germans voted.
If you think there is a perfect system then you are mistaken. Reflecting a vote is important but electing a government which can govern by a method people understand and respect and are in favour of is more important. I don't believe in referenda but once you have had one I think the result should be honored whether or not I personally think that vote is correct.
There are bigger issues even than being inside or outside the EU and remaining governable is one of them.
That's the British attitude all over though isn't it (and American in fairness). We see other countries doing things better and more efficiently, and instead of looking for how we could improve, we fall back on an attitude of 'well that's not how we do things' as if there's an implicit historical superiority.
It's the same with football, Germany looked at a failing system and rebuild it from the grassroots upwards. We continue to do the same stupid crap over and over and just complain when astonishingly nothing ever changes.
But you did have a rant about Germans, whether one agrees with a person or not you can't lump everyone together, that is a particularly English trait
Anyway, as for blaming the past and present problems on Brexit, the Leavers and in particular the UK government have had a convenient scapegoat with the EU to blame their failures. This is one of the problems I have with the whole thing - now that they have committed the dreaded deed though, in a few years they will have to face up to the fact that the problems are the cause of successive incompetent governments, both Labour and Tory.
And not one single argument given thus far by a Brexiter holds any water at all to me why things will improve in the UK after it leaves the EU, quite the reverse.
As for the system of government/parliament etc - every country has a different system as does the EU, who is to say which is the best but for Leavers to claim the UK system is more democratic than the EU is laughable.
The difference is though if we don't like what the government does we can go to London and protest, if the EU does something we don't like it is much harder to protest in person or get them to change as 27 other nations have to agree first.
Call it what you like, all i said was it wasnt a big deal.
I have never never ever understood this attitude. It is, with all due respect, completely nonsensical to me.
Do I prefer the UK uses a system where 13% of voters are represented by 13% of MPs? Hmm yeah I kind of do. Its called democracy.
I fecking hate UKIP and am still pissed that we're leaving the EU. And yet I thought it was an abject failure of our political system that UKIP scored 13% of the national vote share. One in every 8 voters voted for UKIP. And yet they were represented by 1 MP out of 650. That is abysmal and I don't see how that is a good political system in the slightest. Or, for that matter, democratic.
It's no harder than someone living up north to come down to London than someone from London popping over to Brussels.
Secondly, the Uk has MEPs voted in by the UK electorate who are supposed to be representing the people, the few that turn up use that time to have a rant at the EU. The Uk have as least much say as anyone other than Germany, but purely because Germany has a bigger population. You may as well say things in the UK are done to favour the South-East and the North is neglected, how is leaving the EU going to change that.
Thirdly, which brings me to the point of the Uk government using the EU as a scapegoat. How much does the EU govern the UK. What are these terrible things that affects Brits lives so much, we're the best part of 2 years into this debate and still waiting to find out what it is.
As a political scientist, I tell you this is bullshit even Wikipedia would have told you is wrong within the first two paragraphs of the relevant article. How embarrassing .... how is this stupid myth so prevelant in the anglo-saxon world? Embarrassing. But Ye, me, as a political scientist, I should know you have no clue
The election system of 1949 is just a mere continuation of the system that existed before 1933.
The last paragraph is quite pointless discussing as it can be quite subjective. What you may like about being in the eu i might not and vice versa. You could give me some laws that directly affect me and i will tell you if i agree with them or not. From a personal point of view and a simplified view, i look at the whole of europe and see a shithole if inequality. That alone would be enuff for anyone like me.
I think you will find they do, even if their limited knowledge means they have to google it?
Why is that exactly?
What you mean... because I don't have to google everything?
My goodness you are up to date aren't you!
The only people whom seem to go on about an 'Empire' are those who never had one, what is the attraction?
Even the word 'Empire' in any meaning full connotation, died out years ago, this continual harking back to the past is nothing to do with brexiteers! I can almost guarantee that very few if any who voted ''leave' believed or intended Britain would seek to restore its Empire, we had enough trouble with it the first time around.
Because no-one can quote anything. If you look at the whole of the UK you could say exactly the same thing, as I did in the second paragraph. Do the people of Hartlepool for example feel as equally treated as those living in London. Unless you want to live in a communist state where everyone is supposedly equal (although some people are more equal than others) - your favourite, race to the bottom, when everyone is equal because they have nothing.
I do look at the uk in the same light and i dont see the benefit of paying club membership.
If you had invested 2 seconds into the past 2 pages of this thread, you would know why it would be harder. You haven't, of course, because you are more interested in throwing around unwarranted sarcasm and catchphrases. Here, to make it easier for you:
You would also, if you hadn't deliberately misqouted me, known that I didn't say nobody gives a flying feck about allof Russels University, but about the group as a whole. Just like, but I am repeating myself, you neither give a shit about our equivalent nor would know how it's called. For once reply to what you should reply to, not what you WANT to reply to:
You are doing this deliberately, aren't you? You do understand what's written, but you deliberately ignore half of it. Like this stupid shit about the Empire. I KNOW BREXITEER DONT WANT THE EMPIRE BACK; EVERYONE DOES. That's not the fecking point. The fecking point is, like you bringing up "Russells", you seem to think something is relevant or of high reputation just because it's British.
So being in or out of the EU doesn't change a thing, apart from paying the fee and if by leaving, the UK lose more than the fee so monetary wise they are worse off there seems little point.
@Stanley Road is philosophically against the idea of the Union. He isn't looking for a point for brexit and as far as I can remember he hasn't tried to invent one either.
I have looked through a number of posts, but you have not made it clear why it will be harder for UK students to study in the EU countries, I can't help it if you cannot explain what you mean?
I'm not sure why you keep referring to the Erasmus project, which incidentally I agree was the least controversial of many EU projects and from other posts on here seemed to have been enjoyed by those who did participate?
Britain never got the 'zero sum' result from Erasmus that you refer to mainly because very few British students (compared to the provision made under Erasmus) actually took it up! Therefore I cannot see our being 'thrown out' (as you put it) of the project making that much difference to British students since their overall collective interest in the project is traditionally so low, what I can see is that the Erasmus project will be missing the UK's financial contributions if we are barred from participation in the project after Brexit!
As far as the points system (ECTS) or equivalency is concerned the same thing applies, if our students are not availing themselves of what's on offer with the EU countries, or are prevented from doing so, it hardly makes any difference, except perhaps to the odd specialist degree course?
If all other EU/UK Brexit arrangements are agreed i.e. on the basis 'nothing is agreed until everything is agreed' then any students who wished to avail themselves of the Erasmus type provision will most likely be able to do so as long as Britain contributes to cover such costs.
Yes you did, see your post; report #18194; 6.10.17 at 19.14
The Russell Group does have a high reputation, whether its simply because its British is debateable, but it is...so!
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The ECTS system is part of Erasmus, as I have indeed explained. If you don't care about British students being at an disadvantage in comparison towards European students, you do you. If you also think British universities don't need to attract foreign talent, okay. If you think losing this won't make it harder to go abroad (it will, obviously), well. I won't change that. You seem to be fine with it.
Is your whole point really "well we didn't make use of it anyway, so feck those who tried"? I guess they should be flipping burgers at McDonalds right?
And no I did not. Yet again you deliberately misquote. People care about Oxford or Cambridge. They are part of Russell's. The rest of it? Do you really think the University of Exeter has a higher reputation than the university of Barcelona just because it is, by chance, in some abstract group of universities nobody ever heard of that also included Cambridge and Oxford? Sorry to disappoint you. It's hardly Ivy League (which itself is only prestigious because all of their universities are in their own).
The Russell Groups reputation is largely a result of marketing and a media that doesn't understand the sector.
The group itself is irrelevant. It's the reputations of the Universities themselves that matters.
Also your confidence for the university sector is bizarre. It is shared by nobody actually working within it. Unless the government dramatically changes its attitude towards universities in general then Brexit is going to be (and is already) really, really bad news for Higher Education in this country.