Nothing consensual happened afterward. He asked her to watch TV fully clothed, tried to undress her again, and she promptly left.
Celebrity Allegations, #MeToo etc
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Agreed. Some are hellbent on redefining sexual assault so it conforms to their interpretation of power. It would literally kill the cat and mouse game of foreplay in millions of dates and relationships where one side may not initially be interested until they are. It literally defies human nature.
The leaving bit should've happened well before that if she was uncomfortable.
Holy shit, how bad is your fecking dating life? You shouldn't be into foreplay until they're already interested.
That doesn't excuse his behaviour.
Nothing to do with me. It would kill millions of romantic situations, especially among teenagers where guys are usually the ones who are trying to get into a girl's pants, where in the beginning its one side pursuing the other and winds up completely consensual. Not a very realistic approach.
Coincidentally, teenage girls are the group who report the highest concentration of sexual assaults. So, yeah, that needs to fecking change. You can't expect women to put up with being sexually assaulted because some dickhead wants to get his dick wet.
His behavior doesn't warrant any excuses. Its was a bad date. She'll get over it...as long as he doesn't opt to name her in public at which point she will feel significantly more uncomfortable than she claims she was on the date.
I went home with a guy, once. He seemed nice. I told him, as I was agreeing to head to his place that "nothing is going to happen" and he was fine with that. We got back to his and he poured some wine. We drank some whilst listening to Radio 6. He gave me a quick kiss and I didn't mind. Moments later he kissed me in a more significant way and I kissed him back. He then put his hand underneath my underwear. I removed his hand and reminded him he'd said nothing would happen.
I thought that would be enough to make him realise I was serious, to be honest. Potentially naive, in hindsight, but that is what I thought. I still thought we could have a nice time drinking wine and listening to good music.
He again put his hand on my genitals, and I removed it, a couple more times, before I told him if he did it again I would leave. He said he understood and, moments later, he tried again and I very hurriedly left.
There is quite a lot in this thread that makes me think the fact I agreed to go back to his and that I enjoyed kissing him back would make some of you think that he did little wrong.
I thought that would be enough to make him realise I was serious, to be honest. Potentially naive, in hindsight, but that is what I thought. I still thought we could have a nice time drinking wine and listening to good music.
He again put his hand on my genitals, and I removed it, a couple more times, before I told him if he did it again I would leave. He said he understood and, moments later, he tried again and I very hurriedly left.
There is quite a lot in this thread that makes me think the fact I agreed to go back to his and that I enjoyed kissing him back would make some of you think that he did little wrong.
Of course groping a random in a nightclub is sexual assault. And I'm sure there were plenty of guys being groped by females, but let's not go there. This case is a bit different no? They are on a date at a private location, under the circumstance, is he not ok to try to (not forcefully) initiate intimacy?
By the same token, her persistent in flirting with him in the first place after he had initially showed no interest is sexual harasssment?
If he doxxes her, then his career is really over. That would be petty, mean and add another crime on his wrap sheet.
It would be completely acceptable for him to name her since she opted to name him, and in the process damage his career. She and the author wanted to self-aggrandizingly promote the story by linking it to a celebrity for the purpose of piggybacking on MeToo, so why should he not extend a similar courtesy. There should be either complete anonymity or none at all.
Read the story above your post. You don't have to take it to extreme levels to have sexually assaulted someone.
Harassment, sure, but unless she left some details out of the story it wasn't sexual harassment. She was asking about his camera, not his ballsack.
Because it would be petty, mean and convince people that, you know what, maybe he is the kind of inconsiderate arsehole who would sexually assault a woman.
He wouldn't be doing anything she hasn't already done to him would he. From the perspective of the public, it would be good to know his side of the story via a blog post or something similar that is written with the same amount of alleged frankness as her account was.
She could've teamed up with the writer to make a story about how her date "with a celebrity" went. But instead she opted to name Aziz. So him naming her wouldn't in any way be inappropriate.
She doxxes him, that's ok. He doxxes her, criminal.
She doxxes him, that's ok. He doxxes her, criminal.
The irony being that she's a novice photographer just starting out with nothing to lose, whereas he has already built a successful brand and career (even though I don't care for his work) with everything to lose.
Because she's alleging he sexually assaulted her. If she hadn't, people would call her a coward for not naming him (as many women who didn't name their abusers were). Even real courts don't name the victim.She doxxes him, that's ok. He doxxes her, criminal.
She didn't even initially think the evening constituted sexual assault. Apparently her friends then talked her into it.
And now you show me where it was said that "chilling on the couch" meant the end of the sexual encounter? You do know that he used the exact same phrase before that evening, right? For him chilling was actually making out and having oral sex, something she did partake in. The suggestion to put clothes back on can be very well be seen as an attempt by him to have her calm down (which again happened before that evening).
Sexual assault actually involves one party being aware that there is no consent, either by cutlural standart, law or being told by that person. Her previous behaviour inditated to him that she would be alright with sexual acts as long as it does not involve intercourse.
The whole thing is first and foremost some pretty grand miscommunication, because they both thought they would get different things out of the evening. The way he handled it was rude, but not criminal.
I don´t see the relevance to the Ansari story. In her story the boundaries are set as they should be. Clear and in advance. If Grace would have told Ansari, that he could not expect anything sexually from her, especially before entering his apartment, he would be indeed guilty of sexual assault. Instead she took part in everything outside intercourse, which gave him the impression that she was alright with exactly that.
People have the right to change their mind at any point in an encounter as to what they are comfortable with. There doesn't have to be a time limit.
If you have to calm your date down twice, the second time by putting your clothes on, and making it clear that you're going to be in your clothes, you know that taking them off immediately is crossing the line.
Likewise, they can change it back and forth several times within the course of a consensual sexual encounter.
Yes. But after the first revocation of consent, the other person ought to make certain the person who was previously uncomfortable had actually changed their mind. Which is not what he did.
I absolutely agree. But shouldn´t I tell the other person exactly that so there is not even a chance of a misunderstanding?
I think it is a slippery slope to go to someones place after a date and not set boundaries or make clear what you will be doing there. This is probably the cultural influence here. There is that kind of expectiation that is involved here. Why did you feel the need to say that to him?
Ideally yes. But people are cultured to avoid confrontation and not say no directly, women especially. Not to mention the nonzero chance that a woman could say no and the man could assault her anyway.
There's no golden rule on that. Even if a person expresses discomfort and both parties mutually agree to pause their activity for a bit, that doesn't mean it can't resume a few minutes later if both parties are consensual.
I knew his interest in me was sexual and I was okay with that. I shared said interest. I simply didn't desire anything sexual to occur on that occasion.
To be frank, I vividly recall the moment I said it and how weird I felt about saying it, at the time. I thought it a very strange thing to say and potentially a quite insulting one and had I not already had a few drinks I doubt I would've felt it should be said.
But if you know someone expressed discomfort then you should make sure they actually want to continue before continuing. That's the decent thing to do.
*only non-rapey thing to do
What culture is this? Defintely not the western culture.
That went from sexual assault to rape.
Don't bother to reply to me. I find your views abhorrent and your way of expressing them disingenuous. This will be our last interaction.
Certainly. But people who are drunk and horny don't really think in rational textbook terms. They are driven by alcohol, hormones, and often conflicting emotions.
Wow
@Listar do you have any thoughts on my story?
Yes. And that's why a step to combatting the issue is to talk about these things whilst sober.
(continues)
More here: https://babe.net/2018/01/15/thats-w...now-someone-whos-had-a-date-like-graces-28424
True its good to talk about it, although it won't change the dynamics of standard sexual encounters between men and women that are a normal part of human nature.