Fantastic work from Maher. Captured the rising sentiment that these aren't one size fits all situations nicely.
Celebrity Allegations, #MeToo etc
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Fantastic work from Maher. Captured the rising sentiment that these aren't one size fits all situations nicely.
As I always say, as a man I can´t even imagine that for woman, even the most simple things, like walking on the street, are different in perception for a woman than for a man. The level of awareness is completely different is very unfair
Dave Chapelle makes a good and eye-opening point in his own way on one of his recent Netflix shows, he's talking about how as a teenager he did a show and was given $20k in cash which he had to take home through the city in his backpack, he says how petrified he was that on his person was something that many men around him would have killed him for no question if they had known it was there. He makes the comparison of instead of having $20k, what if it was known that he had a vagina instead and maybe that's how it can feel to be a woman sometimes as no doubt there are men out there in those realms of desperation. Of course I'm paraphrasing and he delivers it a lot better but it does make you think.
I doubt is comparable. I travelled around the world 3 years nd I had always 3k-4k dollars/euros on me hidden. Passing through among the most violent countries even sometimes in the worst neighbourhoods in some places. And yes, sometimes I was afraid but I knew that I would only lose money (If you give it away right away would not be a problem). Also, no one knew that I had that quantity but men know that a woman has a vagina. And when you get raped, is not comparable in losing any quantity of money.
I understand a bit the analogy, but at most he could grasp a bit and it was just one night, for women is the whole life what it piles up
Of course it is comparable, you have something on your person that potentially dangerous men will or have the potential to use great violence to 'acquire'. The analogy doesn't need your anecdotes about carrying money around or your assumption about what happens if you give the money away. The idea of the story is to be thought provoking and relate the vulnerability that women face to something a man can more readily understand as it really is something we don't really comprehend in general. Not sure why you would argue against it like it's a mathematical theory.
Thought this was a good post,
Dont really have anything to add or to ask about it ... but i did think about it a fair bit over past couple of days so just thought i'd say.
Ok, buddy
You might have missed the point, Chappelle was not comparing the crimes but the fear one experiences when they could be a target if you have something that they want (be it money or your body). Chappelle had 20K on him that thankfully no one knew about so he was safe but you cannot be safe as a woman because a rapist always knows you have what he is looking for.
I think the analogy Chappelle made is good, in theory - but falls short on the mind state and ultimately only tells half the story, which I think is what @4bars was alluding to.
Ultimately what makes walking out at night solo dolo for a woman so scary, is not so much that you have a vagina - that's a very surface level analysis.
It's more about the power dynamics, objectification, and difference in size and strength - they can do whatever they want to you, and ultimately you are likely to be unable to stop them.
It's also key to remember that gay men, trans women and lesbians are at high risk (and in some cases, higher risk than heterosexual women) of being targets for rape and sexual assault too.
Having a vagina/being feminine etc isn't necessarily the differentiating factor here.
Everyone knows that on average heterosexual men are more likely to be the dominant figure in any form of sexual contact due to various factors, that power position is what makes it scary - because he knows that I am unlikely to hold him off and I know it too.
Now if I am carrying cash on me, I know it - but nobody else does, and sure, I may be more vulnerable or alert than I normally would be - but outwardly, i'm not in any more immediate danger than I usually would be.
Ultimately what makes walking out at night solo dolo for a woman so scary, is not so much that you have a vagina - that's a very surface level analysis.
It's more about the power dynamics, objectification, and difference in size and strength - they can do whatever they want to you, and ultimately you are likely to be unable to stop them.
It's also key to remember that gay men, trans women and lesbians are at high risk (and in some cases, higher risk than heterosexual women) of being targets for rape and sexual assault too.
Having a vagina/being feminine etc isn't necessarily the differentiating factor here.
Everyone knows that on average heterosexual men are more likely to be the dominant figure in any form of sexual contact due to various factors, that power position is what makes it scary - because he knows that I am unlikely to hold him off and I know it too.
Now if I am carrying cash on me, I know it - but nobody else does, and sure, I may be more vulnerable or alert than I normally would be - but outwardly, i'm not in any more immediate danger than I usually would be.
As a school aged male hanging about on the streets there was often a threat of violence. Had some bad situations. As an adult, not so much.
But he wasn't trying to compare mindsets or even suggest that the two scenarios are in any way equal. Just that as a man this was the first time he felt unsafe and that women must carry around their own version of this fear at all times.
It might be a heavy handed analogy that misses out on many at risk people (as you rightly pointed out) but as @Vidic_In_Moscow says it should be eye opening to the heterosexual male who doesn't need to think twice about walking home alone from the pub after a night on the beer. I would never underestimate how oblivious the general male population (who would never dream of committing a rape) would be to such a mindset.
Yeah like I said at a surface level it certainly does the job, and if you're not used to that experience it should definitely give you perspective.
is what @Vidic_In_Moscow wrote, and "how it can feel to be a woman" is probably what I took issue with, as I don't think it's comparable.
I think a better line of reasoning would be "how it can feel to be vulnerable" or even perhaps "how it can feel to lose that element of power" - I think that would've been better.
Does that play on your mind regularly or is it a fleeting thought you have every so often?
It doesn't necessarily play on my mind, but i'm certainly more hyper-sensitive to my vulnerability if I am alone.
But tbh, I couldn't even tell you the last time I was alone at night purely because I avoid being in that situation as often as I can.
Feels like you're nit picking a bit, I thought everyone would understand the gist of the story.
I'm sure they do, I provided an alternative analysis from my perspective.
It was hardly alternative though, it was pretty much the exact point Chapelle made. He's a comedian so he isn't going to provide a full on explanation, a lot of what you said is implied I think. Of course I hope you have seen his version too as I'm sure I absolutely butchered it and my version wouldn't be ideal for any kind of analysis.
Edit: I'm pretty sure he poses the idea that what if everyone knew he had the money too, like everyone would recognize a woman
It certainly affects men who become disabled as adults. Often they feel vulnerable or fearful in situations (like empty multi-storey carparks) in a way they never felt before.
I think that's the crunch, it's there and it's in the back of the mind. The majority of the time it gets ignored, as a statistical improbability (which of course it is) and as too restrictive a way to live, but it becomes part of the psyche.
I agree with you in that I do think it's a fair illustration, which most men can relate to, and is valuable because of it.
What it misses is the sensation of what it means that you can't switch that sense of vulnerability off, instead it becomes part of your character and it does affect people's behaviour. Even down to them maybe responding in what looks like an accepting or passive way, when it sounds easy to tell them that there was no actual physical threat and they should have just been more assertive.
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Cant really imagine living like that.
I'm a real night owl, regularly bring dog for walk around a pitch black park at 10 / 11 +,
occasionally occurs to me that its somewhat dodgy (and is dismissed more or less immediately)
Used to go for a walks around Dublin City in the middle of the night after parties just to unwind.
I'd look behind me and realise the street i just walked down has a junkie shooting up in the doorway back there which i was completely oblivious to.
I didn’t say he should provide a full explanation though, I said on a surface level it does the job that he was going for but I would stop short at saying it’s comparable to ‘feeling like a woman’ which is why I said it’s more comparable to feeling vulnerable.
I’m not sure why you take such an issue with that.
Precisely, because it’s in the subconcious it’s not actively thought about and even when you are in the position, you react more out of habit because you’ve been conditioned to do so.
Oh see I love walking out at night, especially when it’s still and quiet - but I definitely wouldn’t do it alone, I would just hate to be in the position of *if* something happens you know?
It’s unlikely, but it’s still possible so if I can avoid it I definitely will.
Humans are really shitty at qualitatively evaluating risk.
Yeah, i get it.
I'm quite blase about it, i should probably be more careful really.
I think i'd be a bit reluctant to admit it and let it get to me if i did feel threatened, maybe a bit of that mixed in to my experience.
Christ you are hard work
I think he nails it there, and to be honest, that's a quite brave position for him to take considering the political standing of both him and his audience.
I can see that, I think men are expected to be fearless in a lot of ways - so even if you may be apprehensive, your fight or flight kicks in subconsciously and you may brush off any fear of threat you may have had.
Oh I know
I’m a lawyer by trade, plus I enjoy playing devils advocate/bad guy (hence calling myself villain) - but I mean, what I said is still valid
You're a lawyer. It adds up now.
Thanks for the explanation and as well going further about what I was trying to explain. And yes, having a vagina is a oversimplyfication
And for @Vidic_In_Moscow (no need to be so defensive) and @GBBQ as I said in my first comment about the comparison
Because the guy has a a point in the analogy, but in my opinion falls very short to compare
Great read. It does make you wonder how many people are wearing Times Up badges or rounding on Weinstein et al. because its the popular thing to do rather than being the right thing to do. I am sure morals in Hollywood are quite fluid.
To be fair it is not just Tarantino who had this opinion. Many in Hollywood, have defended Polanski over the years including people like Streep. Even now they have refused to outright criticise him when other women have also accused him of rape. He has not even been thrown out of academy like Weinstien.
The shit that’s come out between Uma Thurman and Tarantino in the New York Times confirms all your worst prejudices about his character.
Yeah, seems so. The lines have been blurred however, and now scumbags like Weinstein and Spacey (and all the other despicable characters that have allegedly committed sexual assault) are being grouped with Tarantino. Now I’m not defending Tarantino, he’s clearly a reprehensible character, however it’s in a different stratosphere to the deplorable actions committed by others. For example, this thread is about sexual abuse: has Tarantino been accused of that? Apologies if I have genuinely missed part of the story.
He has not. But he has already admitted to knowing about some of the Weinstein accusations and not done anything. His own GF at one point, Mira Sorivano, was harasshed by Weinstein and he did nothing.
The main bone of contention seems to be around using a convertible car for a shot in Kill Bill film . She felt the car was not safe and wanted a stand-in to do the shot. Tarantino exerted a lot of pressure on her, potentially using Weinstein's tactic of threatening to blacklist her etc. So she did the shot, the car crashed and she was injured. She has never worked for him since that film and the publicity shots for Kill Bill show her looking very uncomfortable around Tarantino and Weinstein.
This story is an interesting one for me as it moves the story away from just sexual politics into general behaviour. I've never understood why some men are just so pig ignorant and persistent with their creepy approaches to women.....but there we have it. Our society still rewards "tenacity" and persistence over manners and sensitivity. We create role models of men who have achieved through persistence rather than diplomacy.
Maybe we as men need to stop listening to those men that preach this doctrine of how to "trick" women into bed etc. Increasingly these men are shown to nothing more than predators. Predators have an excuse in the natural world, a lion sees a prey animal running it will start chasing it and the animal is locked into an attack mode and will chase it down and go for a kill even when it's own safety is under threat.
We are not predators however, we have a functioning higher brain and can sense other factors. We can go back to a flat, have drinks, fool around, and make a pass at the woman, but if at any stage the woman says no or clearly becomes uncomfortable or not engaged, we can walk away.
We don't need to pressure, cajole, ply with drink and wait it out or threaten, badmouth or doxx some woman for expressing herself.
Tarantino responded in detail here - http://deadline.com/2018/02/quentin...ill-bill-car-crash-new-york-times-1202278988/
His defense for the car thing was that he basically fecked up. Found the other stuff more interesting. He was supposed to be interviewed and included in the NYT article; made it sound like him and Thurman were on the same team almost. Also made it sound like the author of the original NYT article created her own narrative against him without actual quotes from Thurman or asking for a comment from Tarantino. That NYT article is definitely terribly written and leaves it open to these sort of attacks.
His defense for the car thing was that he basically fecked up. Found the other stuff more interesting. He was supposed to be interviewed and included in the NYT article; made it sound like him and Thurman were on the same team almost. Also made it sound like the author of the original NYT article created her own narrative against him without actual quotes from Thurman or asking for a comment from Tarantino. That NYT article is definitely terribly written and leaves it open to these sort of attacks.
Not just in Hollywood. Society is changing and it's taken years to get to the point where child abuse is taken seriously. Saville's conduct wasn't just ignored by his bosses at the BBC or by those whose livelihoods depended on him - workers in care homes and hospitals turned a blind eye. Barry Bennell and others in football were known about or suspected, and some clubs stopped working with him, but didn't throw up warnings. The same with some of the stories about priests, or teachers, or even Scout troop leaders. Not celebs but those with a position of power or influence over the young.
Part of it is simply a feeling of helplessness - a knowledge that what we may "know" is only hearsay or rumour or an odd feeling on witnessing some behaviour, not proof just a suspicion that something is wrong. We don't like to assume the worst of others, and an accusation of paedophilia is as "worse" as it gets for most of us. No one wants to believe an adult co-worker, someone who might otherwise appear to be a good guy is capable of it.
Hence Polanski gets defended by suggesting that the girl was already sexually aware and willing. Some of Saville's victims traded cigarettes, treats, rides in his Rolls Royce and would have told even concerned observers that they were having fun. Somehow blame gets transferred to the child and the adult gets if not excused then at least "explained" - particularly in an environment that sexualises young teens as an especially pert, pure and perfect woman. But again, it's not about Hollywood or celebrities, it's about society. The victims of the grooming rings in Rochdale and Rotherham were often dismissed by the authorities as witting victims, or accepting payments, or not virgins, or troubled - as if was the kids fault rather than the adults.
I'm a hypocrite, certainly, because while I admire cultural figures like Wilde (a pederast) and Caravaggio (a murderer), the proffered defence of Polanski - 'he is a great artist' - seems awful to me. It weakens my point somewhat that I don't consider him great, admittedly, but this is a shameful defence, I think. This hypocrisy troubles me, tbh, even though I have what I believe are good reasons (unconnected with artistic greatness)...but are they good?