Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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712 said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics

It could be the BBC don't know the purpose of this Chequers meeting, but if it really is 'to try and reach a deal on the government's Brexit strategy' at this late stage then it can only mean a monumental lack of leadership and competence from May.
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No, they're right. The Cabinet is more like a collection of feuding warlords trying to get to the top of the table than a coherent group of people with a unified policy positions.
 
712 said:
I know Silva, picture me a drowning man clutching at a straw.
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cyberman said:
Well there's a bit more to it than simply saying historic responsibility but a lot of Irish people would agree with you.
There's a certain percentage in Northern Ireland that don't and it's not hard to work out who they are.
The funny thing is that they don't see themselves as British but as wannabe English. That's the problem, they never see Scotland / Wales as an example and it stunts progress.
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Don’t want to derail this thread but as a northern proddy, I want to point out the rubbish above. No one sees themselves as wanabee English. It’s as lazy as those twats I’ve worked with over the years who say ‘my lot’ when referring to English. Being British isn’t the same as being English.
 
Encouraging Labour might be "evolving" into actually opposing a hardline Brexit.

From 'out of the customs union', to 'a customs union' is progress. Still not 'why the feck don't we just stay in THE customs union?', but it's step in the right direction.
 
Oscie said:
Encouraging Labour might be "evolving" into actually opposing a hardline Brexit.

From 'out of the customs union', to 'a customs union' is progress. Still not 'why the feck don't we just stay in THE customs union?', but it's step in the right direction.
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Difficult one for them. Corbyn undermines his "honest politics" mantra by not taking a stance, but at the same time taking a firmly pro-customs union stance will alienate a considerable portion of the party's voters who want an end to freedom of movement.
 
Oscie said:
Encouraging Labour might be "evolving" into actually opposing a hardline Brexit.

From 'out of the customs union', to 'a customs union' is progress. Still not 'why the feck don't we just stay in THE customs union?', but it's step in the right direction.
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They have to keep a broad church together from their traditional base in old industrial areas to the younger members. Still though, it is frustrating how reluctant they are to make a positive case for some form of EU association (a better way to improve living standards, increase social justice etc) while they instead leave the Tories to implode.
 
MoskvaRed said:
They have to keep a broad church together from their traditional base in old industrial areas to the younger members. Still though, it is frustrating how reluctant they are to make a positive case for some form of EU association (a better way to improve living standards, increase social justice etc) while they instead leave the Tories to implode.
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I don't think it's that difficult, quite honestly. Labour voters overwhelmingly are anti-hardline Brexit, Labour's youth are positively Europhillic and under any other leader of the last 30 years they would have had this stance from the outset and not let May et al off the hook for so long as they have. It's because Corbyn and McDonnell are still pretending not to be against something they've been against their entire political lives save for a few weeks of unconvincing campaigning in the summer of 2016. Still, better late than never so can't grumble.
 
Cheesy said:
Difficult one for them. Corbyn undermines his "honest politics" mantra by not taking a stance, but at the same time taking a firmly pro-customs union stance will alienate a considerable portion of the party's voters who want an end to freedom of movement.
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Not only that.

It would allow the media to go full on offensive about traitors to democracy and let them ignore whatever feck up the tories are doing.

I think in the end, he will be able to stand up in front of the country and say if we leave the single market we lose Nissan, Toyota, Honda, BMW and a long list of other jobs, and that he can't agree a deal that destroys people's livelihoods in that way.

But I don't think we as a country are ready to hear it yet. It will only work when the lies are exposed for what they are.
 
Oscie said:
I don't think it's that difficult, quite honestly. Labour voters overwhelmingly are anti-hardline Brexit, Labour's youth are positively Europhillic and under any other leader of the last 30 years they would have had this stance from the outset and not let May et al off the hook for so long as they have. It's because Corbyn and McDonnell are still pretending not to be against something they've been against their entire political lives save for a few weeks of unconvincing campaigning in the summer of 2016. Still, better late than never so can't grumble.
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I definitely agree with the last part of your post. The question I have is whether Labour’s traditional voters who voted leave (places like the NW, NE, S Wales) have been persuaded to change their mind on Brexit. While there has been some small movement in polling, I don’t think most who voted leave have yet been convinced - the sky has not fallen in economically and there doesn’t seem to be enough effort made by Labour to outline what the Rees-Mogg/Fox type bonfire of regulations would actually mean - not so much a return to bendy bananas but rather to the 21st century version of children working up chimneys.
 
Oscie said:
I don't think it's that difficult, quite honestly. Labour voters overwhelmingly are anti-hardline Brexit, Labour's youth are positively Europhillic and under any other leader of the last 30 years they would have had this stance from the outset and not let May et al off the hook for so long as they have. It's because Corbyn and McDonnell are still pretending not to be against something they've been against their entire political lives save for a few weeks of unconvincing campaigning in the summer of 2016. Still, better late than never so can't grumble.
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Labour voters aren't overwhelmingly anti-hardline Brexit, over 30% of them voted for it in 2016 and of that number a significant amount will desire a hard Brexit which entails ending freedom of movement. Corbyn taking this approach will inherently advantage the Tories and drive voters towards them.
 
Oscie said:
I don't think it's that difficult, quite honestly. Labour voters overwhelmingly are anti-hardline Brexit, Labour's youth are positively Europhillic and under any other leader of the last 30 years they would have had this stance from the outset and not let May et al off the hook for so long as they have. It's because Corbyn and McDonnell are still pretending not to be against something they've been against their entire political lives save for a few weeks of unconvincing campaigning in the summer of 2016. Still, better late than never so can't grumble.
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That's bollox. You're telling me the likes of Sunderland, which was 70%+ Brexit, are anti-hard?
Both parties' supporters are massively divided, which is one, of many, reasons it's such a mess.
 
"I know" says May, "as it's 20 months since the referendum, it's about time we decided what we want, remember it has to be realistic according to the EU".
After eight hours of discussion May announces "Right we've tried cherry-picking, we've tried cake and eat it but neither worked, let's try the basket case strategy".
Well that went well.
 
Cheesy said:
Difficult one for them. Corbyn undermines his "honest politics" mantra by not taking a stance, but at the same time taking a firmly pro-customs union stance will alienate a considerable portion of the party's voters who want an end to freedom of movement.
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customs union and freedom of movement.. eh?
 
"We'll have £350m a week for the NHS!"

Lies. We'll have less money for the NHS because we'll pay so much to extract ourselves from the EU and the economy will suffer to the point where we'll have less for the public services all round.

"Let's spend the money we get from leaving the EU on the NHS!"

Good idea Jeremy, let's!

Don't get it. Are we now accepting there will be extra money for the NHS depending on who's saying it? Anyone talking about a boon for public services as a result of Brexit is doing the dirty work of the extreme right wing of the Tory party.
 
Oscie said:
"We'll have £350m a week for the NHS!"

Lies. We'll have less money for the NHS because we'll pay so much to extract ourselves from the EU and the economy will suffer to the point where we'll have less for the public services all round.

"Let's spend the money we get from leaving the EU on the NHS!"

Good idea Jeremy, let's!

Don't get it. Are we now accepting there will be extra money for the NHS depending on who's saying it? Anyone talking about a boon for public services as a result of Brexit is doing the dirty work of the extreme right wing of the Tory party.
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absolute boi said:
We’ll give the NHS resources it needs as we will raise tax on those with the broadest shoulders to pay for it – not by making up numbers and parading them on the side of a bus.
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you seem to have missed his point
 
"We will use funds returned from Brussels after Brexit to invest in our public services and jobs of the future, not tax cuts for the richest"


Don't think I have. One side is saying there will be more money for public services as a result of leaving the EU, the other side is saying there will be more money for public services after leaving the EU. Partisanship has people insisting that when the other side says there'll be more money for public services as a result of leaving the EU they're lying, but when the other side say there'll be more money for public services as a result of leaving the EU they're telling the truth.


Of course he said they'll give NHS more money in other ways too, but my point is he is pushing the Boris/Mogg/Redwood/Hannan line of leaving the EU being directly linked to having more money for public services. Bizarre in any event, especially when Labour's positioning on Brexit appeared to have been softening as a direct result of internal pressure his own cabinet and MPs.
 
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Cheesy said:
I think he does make some fair points in regards to how often you'll complaints of "Just get on with it!" on Question Time etc. There's definitely an obsession with simplifying the whole process, and trying to strip it of all complexity when doing so isn't really possible.
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I agree that these people make up a part of the Brexit vote(Ultra nationalist thatcherites or in other words Gammon - http://www.huckmagazine.com/perspectives/opinion-perspectives/defence-calling-people-gammon/)

But he firstly miss the mark in viewing the Remain and Leave camps as something other than a small faction of voters with a very loud voice due to their media presence. There was a reason why Labour during the election could so easily turn the conversation away from Brexit and onto issues such as NHS, education, etc. The rest of his thread is just nonsense that makes like him feel better e.g. people who voted Brexit are just stupid.
 
Sweet Square said:
I agree that these people make up a part of the Brexit vote(Ultra nationalist thatcherites or in other words Gammon - http://www.huckmagazine.com/perspectives/opinion-perspectives/defence-calling-people-gammon/)

But he firstly miss the mark in viewing the Remain and Leave camps as something other than a small faction of voters with a very loud voice due to their media presence. There was a reason why Labour during the election could so easily turn the conversation away from Brexit and onto issues such as NHS, education, etc. The rest of his thread is just nonsense that makes like him feel better e.g. people who voted Brexit are just stupid.
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At some point Brexiteers will need to comprehend that non-Brexiteers will view them as stupid until proven wrong.

You cannot vote yourself into a complete mess by listening and believing Johnson, Mogg, Farage and their ilk and expect others not to have a opinion on it. Everything happening in the Brexit "negotiations" now was predicted by everyone who had the slightest knowledge about the EU before the referendum. The only ones who where predicting anything else are the ones who are now living in a fantasy world of "unaligned alignment" "e-boarder" etc.


They may not be stupid individuals one by one, but this choice was monumentally stupid. That it was such was clear to see for anyone not indoctrinated by Murdoch and Dacre. Since so many of them define themselves as "brexiteers", hence define themselves via that choice, I think it's more than fair to call them stupid individually too.
 
Abizzz said:

At some point Brexiteers will need to comprehend that non-Brexiteers will view them as stupid until proven wrong.

You cannot vote yourself into a complete mess by listening and believing Johnson, Mogg, Farage and their ilk and expect others not to have a opinion on it. Everything happening in the Brexit "negotiations" now was predicted by everyone who had the slightest knowledge about the EU before the referendum. The only ones who where predicting anything else are the ones who are now living in a fantasy world of "unaligned alignment" "e-boarder" etc.


They may not be stupid individuals one by one, but this choice was monumentally stupid. That it was such was clear to see for anyone not indoctrinated by Murdoch and Dacre. Since so many of them define themselves as "brexiteers", hence define themselves via that choice, I think it's more than fair to call them stupid individually too.
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Of course it was a stupid choice but then so is voting for any tory government, voting lib dem or voting for Hilary Clinton in the PRIMARIES. People make stupid choices all the time but hey that's 30 odd years of neoliberalism and capitalism alienation for you.

My point is that yes the ones who ring up radio stations, appear in the audience of question time are part of the Brexit vote but they are not the majority. To have any sort of analysis of why Brexit happened, we have to look at the country as a whole, the deep issues, the past etc. But to do would require a lot of hard self analysis by liberals, so instead people get called stupid.
 
Sweet Square said:
Of course it was a stupid choice but then so is voting for any tory government, voting lib dem or voting for Hilary Clinton in the PRIMARIES. People make stupid choices all the time but hey that's 30 odd years of neoliberalism and capitalism alienation for you.

My point is that yes the ones who ring up radio stations, appear in the audience of question time are part of the Brexit vote but they are not the majority. To have any sort of analysis of why Brexit happened, we have to look at the country as a whole, the deep issues, the past etc. But to do would require a lot of hard self analysis by liberals, so instead people get called stupid.
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It’s been 18 months and people still think it was Russian bots wot won it. I wouldn’t hold your breath
 
Oscie said:
"We will use funds returned from Brussels after Brexit to invest in our public services and jobs of the future, not tax cuts for the richest"
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That's quite hilarious considering that the Tory plan for a hard brexit is to remove as much tariffs as possible and open the doors to their market as much as possible. How the hell are they going to recoup the tax needed for the public service if the British market is swarmed by cheaper products which will kill of the local industry, there's no money made out from tariffs and the NHS end up being challenged in court by US corporations?
 
Sweet Square said:
My point is that yes the ones who ring up radio stations, appear in the audience of question time are part of the Brexit vote but they are not the majority. To have any sort of analysis of why Brexit happened, we have to look at the country as a whole, the deep issues, the past etc. But to do would require a lot of hard self analysis by liberals, so instead people get called stupid.
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I simply don't buy that line that liberals have done something oh so terrible to the brexiteers that absolves the brexiteers from blame for their own action.

Also it is truly bizarre to blame "liberals" (in the sense of the word that I think that you are using it, i.e the way it is predominantly used in the US) for neoliberalism. Neoliberalism is a conservative fetish. Yes they got a lot of help from the center-left, but lets not forget who's child it is.
 
GloryHunter07 said:
Can we please just stop calling people stupid.
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Not when they invent grievances and peddle fantasies.

Case in point from @Drifter source:
Brexit Secretary David Davis ... accused Mr Corbyn of "selling snake oil".
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Proposing to keep the economic relationship as close to the status quo as possible is "snake oil"... From the minister who talked about impact assessments being done in “in excruciating detail” only to later admit there are none at all.
 
Sweet Square said:
Of course it was a stupid choice but then so is voting for any tory government, voting lib dem or voting for Hilary Clinton in the PRIMARIES. People make stupid choices all the time but hey that's 30 odd years of neoliberalism and capitalism alienation for you.

My point is that yes the ones who ring up radio stations, appear in the audience of question time are part of the Brexit vote but they are not the majority. To have any sort of analysis of why Brexit happened, we have to look at the country as a whole, the deep issues, the past etc. But to do would require a lot of hard self analysis by liberals, so instead people get called stupid.
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It's not the same thing. Whatever your political persuasion, if you vote Tory you know roughly what you're going to get, the same for Labour, the same for LibDem or Communist or whatever. People who voted Trump knew roughly what they were going to get, there are no surprises.

Believing the obvious rubbish the Brexiters were and still are spouting is beyond belief. It took very little investigation to find out it was pure lies and fantasy.
Why not send your bank details to a Nigerian Prince who emailed you, I'm sure he'll transfer all that money he promised you.
 
GloryHunter07 said:
Rise above.
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No, for the time being I won't. The politicians who campaigned for Brexit profited hugely in the run up to the vote by being given respect that their conduct didn't warrant. Be it Boris, Fox, Davis or Farage, they all spread falsehoods about the UK's relationship with it's partners, invented grievances towards Brussels and played the ill informed electorate like a fiddle by promising a vague, but fantastic future should their invented grievances be removed.

You can respect them, don't expect me to please. I think the respect they've previously received by people who should have known better contributed to this mess.
 
Sweet Square said:
I agree that these people make up a part of the Brexit vote(Ultra nationalist thatcherites or in other words Gammon - http://www.huckmagazine.com/perspectives/opinion-perspectives/defence-calling-people-gammon/)

But he firstly miss the mark in viewing the Remain and Leave camps as something other than a small faction of voters with a very loud voice due to their media presence. There was a reason why Labour during the election could so easily turn the conversation away from Brexit and onto issues such as NHS, education, etc. The rest of his thread is just nonsense that makes like him feel better e.g. people who voted Brexit are just stupid.
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The problem is that Brexit has a direct impact on all of those things insofar as if it significantly hurts the economy it's going to hurt all of those things. I do agree a more substantial path of discussion is needed than branding those who voted Brexit 'stupid' but likewise issues like the NHS and education can't be discussed in a vacuum as if Brexit's not a thing that's happening.
 
Abizzz said:
No, for the time being I won't. The politicians who campaigned for Brexit profited hugely in the run up to the vote by being given respect that their conduct didn't warrant. Be it Boris, Fox, Davis or Farage, they all spread falsehoods about the UK's relationship with it's partners, invented grievances towards Brussels and played the ill informed electorate like a fiddle by promising a vague, but fantastic future should their invented grievances be removed.

You can respect them, don't expect me to please. I think the respect they've previously received by people who should have known better contributed to this mess.
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Oh call politicians idiots by all means, but not voters you dont agree with.
 
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