Martial has got to remain at United | No, he hasn't been unfollowing United players on Instagram

Yeah. Agree with this. And Nani was overrated by a redcafe fan club throughout his United career too. There’s something about players who can do flicks and tricks that makes fans lose their minds. Exact same themes too. Fergie allegedly ruined Nani’s career by playing him on the wrong flank. Always the managers fault when players like Nani/Martial are inflexible/underperform.

What’s this thread about anyway? Is he actually being sold? We should hold onto him if we can.

He's a cracking young player is Martial but yes, he is definitely overrated in here. In too many games he doesn't effect them at all and he needs to add a consistency to his game.

And for all those slating Mourinho's "treatment" of him, what do they say about Deschamps who appears to be equally as bemused about what to do with Martial's talent? Deschamps on the other hand seems to have no problems with Mbappé. Do @beingshe7don and co. think Deschamps is a big bad mean man too?
 
On his day he is unbeatable, a joy to watch, and we need these type of players if we want to play better football. He needs to shape up and be more consistent and Jose needs to show patience with him. He has improved this year, definitely, but needs more game time.

People turning the Martial situation into another anti-Mourinho crusade are just pathetic. If the cafeteria lady burns the food, they will blame Mourinho, and they will also come up with some stats to prove their point.
 
Well look not further than Jesse Lingard ffs

SAF said Jesse would be a late bloomer, due to his size etc and he has bloomed this season. Seeing LvG consider him good enough for the first team without loaning him out and him scoring some very important goals for us at the time as well, it is a bit far fetched to credit Jose with his development.
 
He's a cracking young player is Martial but yes, he is definitely overrated in here. In too many games he doesn't effect them at all and he needs to add a consistency to his game.

And for all those slating Mourinho's "treatment" of him, what do they say about Deschamps who appears to be equally as bemused about what to do with Martial's talent? Deschamps on the other hand seems to have no problems with Mbappé. Do @beingshe7don and co. think Deschamps is a big bad mean man too?

Mbappe is on another level to any youngster out there. Even a guy like Deschamps and even Jose would struggle to hold back a talent like Mbappe.

Are we to assume that only Mbappe level talents are to be trusted to play first team football at the highest level. Funnily enough Martial is not really a fancy tricks sort of player, he's more old school just does the bare minimum needed to beat a player with feints and body swerves and is very direct hence why in his debut season he was incredibly effective in front of goal for such a young player compared to say Cristiano at a similar age.

Now he's being compared to Nani or Depay even though he was showing some great end product before being inexplicably dropped just to fit in our new latest signing - despite being bang in form himself and trying his best to heed the managers instructions throughout the season.
 
Mbappe is on another level to any youngster out there. Even a guy like Deschamps and even Jose would struggle to hold back a talent like Mbappe.

Are we to assume that only Mbappe level talents are to be trusted to play first team football at the highest level. Funnily enough Martial is not really a fancy tricks sort of player, he's more old school just does the bare minimum needed to beat a player with feints and body swerves and is very direct hence why in his debut season he was incredibly effective in front of goal for such a young player compared to say Cristiano at a similar age.

Now he's being compared to Nani or Depay even though he was showing some great end product before being inexplicably dropped just to fit in our new latest signing - despite being bang in form himself and trying his best to heed the managers instructions throughout the season.

So that didn’t happen...
 
The absolute audacity of some to compare Mbappe to Martial. Mbappe is on a different stratosphere to Martial. Mbappe is a freak of nature; there are no shortcomings in his game which is remarkable at such a young age.

Martial is an inferior player to Mbappe while having crucial years of development over him. Once Mbappe matures physically the difference will be even more pronounced.
 
So that didn’t happen...

Yes Martial has also got injured in the mean time but it was clear that he was being moved around and was a problem in Jose's attempt to integrate Sanchez into the side. Anything less than 10/10 from Martial was going to inevitably lead to him being dropped.
 
Martial didn't get dropped for Sanchez. When Sanchez came in, him and Martial would take turns on each wing, a look at the average positions will tell you this the to be fact (they both had central positions despite not playing centrally). Then he got injured for a few weeks and so couldn't play.

Look at who played in the only competition we have left to play for...Martial!

Just because Martial doesn't play every single game doesn't mean he's being treated harshly, this is not Martial FC, there are other players that also need game time.
 
he was showing some great end product before being inexplicably dropped just to fit in our new latest signing

hmm....

So that didn’t happen...

Indeed.

Yes Martial has also got injured in the mean time but it was clear that he was being moved around and was a problem in Jose's attempt to integrate Sanchez into the side.

Yes ok, so you just made that up.

Weird few posts there Raees.
 
Bale could give us one season of RVP level brilliance but is it worth losing a potential worldie talent who under the right manager could give us half a decade worth of top service. Not imo.

Problem is we have a lot of short term vision fans at the moment who just lack long term perspective. The more they bang on about results results results paradoxically they aren't really getting the elite level results a club of this stature should be getting and the long term prospects of success also become harmed at the same time.
Its the old adage, "you reap what you sow".
 
Regarding the thread title, No, Martial doesn't have to stay. The original post is a load of hyperbole.

He's been good, but not great. If he wants to stay, improve and fight for a place, he's earned that much. If he feels he needs to go elsewhere, then sell as high as possible, and best of luck to him.
 
He's a cracking young player is Martial but yes, he is definitely overrated in here. In too many games he doesn't effect them at all and he needs to add a consistency to his game.

And for all those slating Mourinho's "treatment" of him, what do they say about Deschamps who appears to be equally as bemused about what to do with Martial's talent? Deschamps on the other hand seems to have no problems with Mbappé. Do @beingshe7don and co. think Deschamps is a big bad mean man too?

France is a pretty bad example, Martial competition is deep in quantity and high in quality. I said it a couple of years ago but Martial was the big new talent in 2014/2015 but the moment he left Monaco three better talents appeared in Lemar, Mbappé and Dembélé, so Martial isn't really a problem for Deschamps, he is needed because we have clearly better players which United don't really have, Martial is in the same bracket than Coman.
 
hmm....



Indeed.



Yes ok, so you just made that up.

Weird few posts there Raees.

After the Newcastle game.. he was benched for the Huddersfield game.

Benched for the Sevilla game.

Started against Chelsea.

Injured v Palace.

Injured v Liverpool.

Benched for Sevilla game (second leg)

Started against Brighton.

Benched v Swansea.

So in the last 6 games he was available for, he was benched in 4 of them and that is not being dropped? or falling out of the first XI as a definite relied upon regular?
 
The problem isn't restricted to the game time he is (not) getting though, is it? He's a great talent and he possesses bags of skill on the ball, that's a given. And at the age of 22, he needs to develop, both in mentality and attributes, into the player we all hope he will eventually become. But if Mourinho seems more than willing to sign ready-made superstars in order to create a shortcut toward his end-goal (the PL title), what LvG did during his tenure at United (throwing every academy player he could find into the deep end) would not have helped Martial much in the long run either.

It's true that young and talented footballers need more playing minutes. Moreso, they need meaningful game time and not just 10-15 minutes near the end of games that are already done and dusted. But they also need nurturing, guidance and encouragement on the pitch because that's how they'll become more confident in themselves. To achieve this at a club like United is a way more difficult task simply because the standards are always very high. You can't just give them the shirt and tell them to go out and win games, it's not how it works. They must be introduced into a well-balanced side where the more experienced players will provide the platform for the youngsters to work their magic. And as the whole team moves forward, so the young players will grow in skills and confidence and eventually become the leaders themselves when the right time comes.

Take the famous class of '92 for example. G. Neville played at right-back alongside the best keeper in the PL and Irwin-Pallister-Bruce. In the midfield, Scholes/Butt partnered Keane, the natural leader of that United side (alongside Cantona). Beckham was introduced on the right wing while Giggs was already a proven choice on the other side. As for the forward position(s), that's an area on the pitch in which the old gaffer rarely took many chances. That's how you do it. A decade later, when the young and still unripe Ronaldo came to United, we didn't rely on him to carry all the weight upon his shoulders straight away. When his time finally came, it was clear for all to see and not a matter of debate on a football forum.

Our main problem and Martial's main problem too is that we're not a good football side. And it's not solely a Mourinho vs youth issue, we're not a good football side for quite some time. You may cry all you want about how Martial, Rashford and <insert young player's name> should always start and be trusted but i'm afraid it won't work out well. Not for us and not for them. It didn't work for Moyes when he was desperately waiting for Januzaj to become the answer to all his woes and it didn't work for LvG when his philosophy crashed and burned and he was searching for a lifeline in the academy.

The club must help Martial in order for Martial to fulfil his potential and help the club in return. But this can not happen in an environment where Martial and all the other youngsters will always start and it'll be ok for the club to fall in midtable mediocrity because of the hope that in the future these players will deliver the goods. That's a first class ticket toward sheer mediocrity and the total Arsenalization of the club. And trust me, when that happens Martial's departure will be far more certain than it seems nowadays.

SAF was the master of rotation but he's not here anymore and i understand the question marks regarding Mourinho's ability to rotate and therefore give an active role to the youngsters. But i think his initial idea to rotate Martial/Rashford at the start of the season was correct and bore some fruit. After all, Martial gained confidence through having a huge impact as a sub that could change the course of our games. He may get there eventually and perhaps not under Mourinho but he'll benefit more from being in the rotation for a good side than simply starting every game for us now. Unless, of course, he finds guaranteed game time in an already readymade side like Real Madrid, Barcelona or Juventus. But i'm not sure this will happen, at least not this summer.
 
I remember Nani doing some magical stuff, closing in on goal, made the wrong decision and boom missed the goal. I remember Martial scoring in he's epic debut against Liverpool, and when I see Martial dribble past two or three defenders and gets a shot at goal or a pass in front of goal I see a very special world class player.

The guy is far from perfect but he's got fantastic technique and he's already scoring us goals. He's young and still learning. Its the same with Rashford, still so young but so brave. These guys actually tries to challenge their opponents and sometimes they succeed and sometimes they don't but they´re not afraid of doing so.

We need to keep these special players. End of story.
 
After the Newcastle game.. he was benched for the Huddersfield game.

Benched for the Sevilla game.

Started against Chelsea.

Injured v Palace.

Injured v Liverpool.

Benched for Sevilla game (second leg)

Started against Brighton.

Benched v Swansea.

So in the last 6 games he was available for, he was benched in 4 of them and that is not being dropped? or falling out of the first XI as a definite relied upon regular?

You used the word “inexplicable” to describe him being dropped. All that’s happened is that he hasn’t been playing very well, picked up an injury and has been in and out of the team as a result. All in the context of needing to give game time to a genuinely world class player (Sanchez) who plays the same position and needs to adapt to his new club. I’m not 100% sure what the exact opposite of inexplicable is but that’s what applies here.
 
And rightly so, he was fecking awful v. Newcastle.

Worse than any of our other attackers? if I recall, he was our most likely goal threat. Missed chances yes (but generally he's one of our more reliable finishers). He wasn't invisible put it that way. He's had far worse games than that Newcastle game, where he was rightfully called up on issues such as work-rate but Newcastle game, only issue I could see was efficiency in front of goal. He got into good positions.

Problem with the way we handle Martial/Rashford is that whereas someone like Sane can have a bad game but is still likely to start the next game because Pep believes in him and lets him play through his bad games, similar to how Klopp keeps faith with his front three.. we chop and change as soon as someone's performance level drops, and then it takes a while for them to reintegrate back into the side. It is not conducive to great development IMO.

On the other hand, guys like Sanchez/Lukaku get played through their bad patches. There is a lack of consistency with team selection at times.
 
Ah yes, and Sanchez, Lukaku and Rashford are just run of the mill players. :lol:

Really, you just decided to act like an idiot? Where did I said that these players were run of the mill players? You used a national team that has around 5 players in the same age bracket and play in the same position, it's a lot harder to get in that team than it is to play regularly for your club because on top of these players you have more experienced players too and tactical limitations linked to the fact that it's a national team.
 
The trouble is our squad remains very unbalanced, particularly up front.

We have 3 players in Sanchez, Rashford and Martial who aren't really wingers, but aren't really strikers, but only seem to be able to play left-ish of Lukaku. Martial has to step-up and put in good performances on the right, or he may very well find himself the odd man out.

I'd rather see Martial on the left, Sanchez behind Lukaku and Lingard on the right, but that seems to never really be used.
 
Yeah. Agree with this. And Nani was overrated by a redcafe fan club throughout his United career too. There’s something about players who can do flicks and tricks that makes fans lose their minds. Exact same themes too. Fergie allegedly ruined Nani’s career by playing him on the wrong flank. Always the managers fault when players like Nani/Martial are inflexible/underperform.

What’s this thread about anyway? Is he actually being sold? We should hold onto him if we can.

Honestly that's what I can't understand about the Martial hype. Nani gave us an awful lot more for my money and was widely criticised by huge portions of the United fan base as an inconsistent show pony. The love in for Martial is doing nothing but convincing me that our standards have fallen massively since those days.

I'd rather Martial stayed than went, but the longer this saga rumbles on the more I don't care if he goes. Between Rashford (who actually has shown some desire to improve his game since he came into the squad) and, hopefully, a rejuvenated Sanchez next season I'm not even convinced we'll miss Martial that much.
 
The trouble is our squad remains very unbalanced, particularly up front.

We have 3 players in Sanchez, Rashford and Martial who aren't really wingers, but aren't really strikers, but only seem to be able to play left-ish of Lukaku. Martial has to step-up and put in good performances on the right, or he may very well find himself the odd man out.

I'd rather see Martial on the left, Sanchez behind Lukaku and Lingard on the right, but that seems to never really be used.

Lingard isn't very good on the wing, his constant pressing and ability to find space is much more effective centrally. We just need to sign a proper right winger.
 
The way we terrorised Swansea I think we are in good stead in getting our attack right. Genuinely think our issue in opening teams up and controlling them has nothing to do with the front 3 behind Lukaku but more the middle 3 that's trying to control the midfield.

Once we sign the two CM targets we will look completely different.
 
Really, you just decided to act like an idiot? Where did I said that these players were run of the mill players? You used a national team that has around 5 players in the same age bracket and play in the same position, it's a lot harder to get in that team than it is to play regularly for your club because on top of these players you have more experienced players too and tactical limitations linked to the fact that it's a national team.

Acting like an idiot? Martial plays for a top club and is competing with one of the World's best players and a great talent in his position. It's very similar to his issues with France.

If I remember rightly, Martial, like with United started off his International career very well, but a very "Martial-esque" off game for France saw him out in the wilderness and now Deschamps struggles to fully trust him. It's a similar story here.

That said, I think Martial is a great talent and absolutely wouldn't want him to leave, but to make out "it's all nasty Mourinho's fault" is plain bollocks.
 
You used the word “inexplicable” to describe him being dropped. All that’s happened is that he hasn’t been playing very well, picked up an injury and has been in and out of the team as a result. All in the context of needing to give game time to a genuinely world class player (Sanchez) who plays the same position and needs to adapt to his new club. I’m not 100% sure what the exact opposite of inexplicable is but that’s what applies here.

Inexplicable because in January, he was in red-hot form, scoring three key goals in three starts. Only for him then to be put on the right against Spurs (where he wasn't too bad IMO) then benched v Huddersfield - once again an easy target after a loss, once again played on the right v Newcastle (where once again i thought he looked rather threatening albeit had a very dodgy performance in front of goal) and then benched for the next Huddersfield game (as described in my previous post).

So from looking like he was about to set aflame, scoring in every game he was starting in, to being shoved into an unfamiliar position where he himself did alright and certainly no worse than other players who were playing in their favoured roles, to being made the scapegoat and being the one who was benched more often than not.

Inexplicable? yes I would say so. When you're looking to develop a youngster into a top talent, patience is key as is being logical and earning that players trust as to why he is being dropped. I don't see the logic behind how he's been handled since January to the present.

Issue here is Martial FC v Jose FC has been a running theme all season, but for me.. Martial has done well this season, he has tried to take what Mourinho is saying on board and responded really well to the battle with Rashford and looked like he was triumphant and got into some really good form in January and that has been shat on quite frankly. What makes this especially sad, is the glee that certain United fans take in him being dropped and 'feck it.. if he goes - no big loss' completely ignorant to the fact that the two top players in the league Salah and KDB were also rejects.

No one is guaranteeing Martial will ever reach his potential, but to be celebrating rumours of getting rid of a player who is unquestionably talented at 22, for short term players like a Bale.. seriously what on earth is happening to our fanbase?
 
The absolute audacity of some to compare Mbappe to Martial. Mbappe is on a different stratosphere to Martial. Mbappe is a freak of nature; there are no shortcomings in his game which is remarkable at such a young age.

Martial is an inferior player to Mbappe while having crucial years of development over him. Once Mbappe matures physically the difference will be even more pronounced.

Yes I can understand this and I can agree with them. Mbappe has been nurtured and has had the opportunity to play consistently in teams that suites his play. Free flowing attacking football, Martial has come to Utd and has had to adjust to the slow, negative/defensive football of LvG and now Jose, being benched at whim even when he is doing everything asked of him and yet he has been so effective when coming on as a sub.
 
On the other hand, guys like Sanchez/Lukaku get played through their bad patches. There is a lack of consistency with team selection at times.

Well Sané works his socks off in Pep's pressing system, and what do Sanchez and Lukaku also have in common? Yep Raees, they also work their socks off.

Can the same always be labelled at Martial when he's having an off game?
 
Yes I can understand this and I can agree with them. Mbappe has been nurtured and has had the opportunity to play consistently in teams that suites his play. Free flowing attacking football, Martial has come to Utd and has had to adjust to the slow, negative/defensive football of LvG and now Jose, being benched at whim even when he is doing everything asked of him and yet he has been so effective when coming on as a sub.

Yeah sure, nothing to do with Mbappe being on a different planet when it comes to talent compared to Martial.
 
Honestly that's what I can't understand about the Martial hype. Nani gave us an awful lot more for my money and was widely criticised by huge portions of the United fan base as an inconsistent show pony. The love in for Martial is doing nothing but convincing me that our standards have fallen massively since those days.

I'd rather Martial stayed than went, but the longer this saga rumbles on the more I don't care if he goes. Between Rashford (who actually has shown some desire to improve his game since he came into the squad) and, hopefully, a rejuvenated Sanchez next season I'm not even convinced we'll miss Martial that much.

I think that the truth is most likely nuanced. Martial isn't perfect and he shouldn't be an automatic starter, he needs to improve and that's why him sharing the LW spot with Rashford was a great plan. At the saem time people are too impatient and have expectations that aren't realistic, players like Ribery, Robben, Griezmann and many others were far from perfect between 19 and 22, we need to understand that when a club decides to take players that are in the middle of their development it's his responsibility to do everything to put these young players in the best context otherwise it's best to just leave them alone and purchase them when they are finished product. Personally that's why I don't United to just get rid of him and Shaw, I don't like the fact that a club take players out of a perfect environment and then shows little patience.

And I can already see people say that United isn't Monaco that the standard aren't the same, that's true but that's also why you are not supposed to purchase like Monaco if you don't want to act like them when it comes to players development.
 
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Just sell him to us. Starter at right wing, lot of french guys, he woul thrive.

Straight sale, absolutely not because his talent is evident. But since Mourinho has identified the midfield as the the area where we need recruitment, what would you say about a swap: Martial for Alcantara plus money? You'll get your RW who will thrive in your team and we'll get the deeper midfielder we lack and give Pogba the role he desires on the pitch. Happy with that?
 
Well Sané works his socks off in Pep's pressing system, and what do Sanchez and Lukaku also have in common? Yep Raees, they also work their socks off.

Can the same always be labelled at Martial when he's having an off game?

Well the Spurs game and the Newcastle game, he was playing out of position and unlike Pogba.. yes he did work very hard for an attacking player. In the Newcastle game, he missed chances.. he didn't down tools.

I didn't see any massive difference in work-rate between him and Sanchez, if anything Martial worked a lot harder on the ball by actively looking to take people on as well as getting back. Sanchez since he has come here has shown more effort defensively, than he has shown effort on the ball.. since when was that a desirable quality to be celebrated in an attacking player?

Now don't get me wrong, I like Sanchez and hopefully he turns out to be a hit but it is important that wide players or attacking players in general, show effort in possession, don't just take the easy option or be sloppy on the ball. Sanchez thus far, has been very lethargic on the ball and has tried to compensate by looking busy from a defensive perspective. IMO that is still a lazy performance.
 
Yes I can understand this and I can agree with them. Mbappe has been nurtured and has had the opportunity to play consistently in teams that suites his play. Free flowing attacking football, Martial has come to Utd and has had to adjust to the slow, negative/defensive football of LvG and now Jose, being benched at whim even when he is doing everything asked of him and yet he has been so effective when coming on as a sub.

Here we go again...it seems like the answer to world hunger is also 'attacking' football.

Martial is part of the reason why we don't play 'free flowing', he is not some bystander that has barely played. In fact, I would not want Martial in the team if I wanted to play free flowing attacking football because he is SLOW both in the mind and in his off the ball movements.

Sanchez, Lingard, Mata, Lukaku are quick thinkers and quick movers; Martial ponders on the ball far too much and doesn't run behind defences anywhere near enough.

Mbappe is part of the reason why his teams play free flowing attacking football; because he is incredibly mature in his usage of space and ball. He has no preference, he will run behind the defence, dribble inside and shoot/pass, dribble outside and cross, come short to move a defender.