I'm not OK with it. At all. That's 50 lives snuffed out, and many injured.
Are you OK with Hamas encouraging this in the hope/knowledge they get killed (and in even greater numbers should they breach the border)?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I'm not OK with it. At all. That's 50 lives snuffed out, and many injured.
Are you OK with Hamas encouraging this in the hope/knowledge they get killed (and in even greater numbers should they breach the border)?
This is what I find truly bizarre. For starters the countries that attacked Israel all those decades ago are either on friendly terms with them now and/or couldn’t give two shits about the Palestinians. A little bizarre to punish the Palestinians for it, almost none of which were alive during the time. It would be abit like collectively punishing Germans today for the Pearl Harbour attack.
And let’s be honest, this has nothing to do with 1947, it’s just a convenience excuse the hardliners clutch on to to validate any excessive show of force or lack of diplomatic initiative. But even if it was a genuine reason, when does it stop? Are the Palestinians to be indefinitely deprived of any form of just statehood because of events that happened 70 years ago? I mean give it another 70 years - will the hardliners still point to events 140 years ago?
And before anyone gives me the whole ‘survival’ and ‘never again’ schtick- give me a break. A nuclear state with the most powerful military in the region and the most powerful nation on earth as its guardian isn’t going to get near to having its survival compromised. Not when the very people you claim are a threat have no resources or diplomatic protection to boast of.
Kaos said:
Of course it does, what do you think the 'return' in 'March of Return' refers to? The dynamics which continue to drive the entire conflict are to do with 1947/48.
I was referring to the excuse the apologists use to dignify their excessive show of force in response to events like the one that transpired yesterday. I don’t see how you could clutch on to that as your bail out card everytime you’re rightly met with a wave of condemnation.
Of course it’s impossible to downplay the significance of 47 and the ROR even today, but to use it’s historical retrospections as an excuse to tenuously justify any act of sheer aggression is madness.
Like I said quote where you have condemned this attack once in this whole thread.
oates said:
Your point?
I suppose that it didn't end in 1948. The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians is going on even now.
Edit, I was in effect backing up what you said, there's plenty more.
I've not seen anyone use the events 1947/48 as an excuse for the actual violence - the "Hamas are terrorists, what do you expect?" line seems to be the go-to explanation there. Referring to 1948 is more an attempt to draw attention to what the Palestinians are actually protesting about here, and why the Israelis are opposed to allowing the protests to play out as the Palestinians desire.
Israel needs to back down. Hamas needs to stop constructing tunnels. A two state solution must be worked out. Palestinians need to recognise Israel as a nation with a right to exist. They should also accept that there can be no right to return anymore. That is a big part of this conflict. Israel has to end the blockade on Gaza. They should work out a two state solution. Enough is enough.
Where did I suggest it ended in 1948? I was arguing that the issues which drove the war of 1948 continue to define the conflict today, including these protests. There was an attempt made which lasted around 10-15 years between the two intifadas to re-imagine the dynamics of the conflict as being a result of the 1967 war, with the idea that reversing the consequences of that war would bring peace (a two-state solution). That ended in 2000 and most sensible people have returned to the conclusion (if they ever left) that it is still about 1948 and the zero-sum battle of two conflicting national projects over one land.
Thanks for that, will give it a more thorough read later on. Browsing the caf is kind of where my boss draws the limit on procrastination
We're not arguing, my second sentence says so. Although at times I begin to see very little point to posting unless it is an argument given the response to a discussion.
Exactly. No coincidence that it's nakba day.
It is difficult to know what the Israelis soldiers could do. They were there to protect the border. The border was being breached by a violent mob. There was a clear threat that, unchecked, the mob would maraud into Israeli civilian areas possible killing people. Were the soldiers supposed to make an assessment on the ground that most of the protesters only had slings, stones and burning tyres. Therefore we need not shoot. How were they to know that among them there were not others with knives or other deadly weapons? I read that petrol bombs were used. That said the response did seem over-the-top. But what other response was realistically available to them which would not have resulted in danger to themselves or the people they were protecting? Do people think that if the Israeli Army had just backed away the Palestinians would have stopped somewhere short of invading Israeli civilian areas? How would they be able to be so sure? And what were kids and babies doing there? For all the sympathy that I have for the Palestinian cause it is sometimes difficult to believe that Hamas are not firing up and using their own people to cynically bolster public support. I mean they must know by now that the Israelis do not take any chances or do anything by halves. So sending people to protest using that level of aggression would only really result one response.
Every time I read about Gaza in the news.. I can't help but feel indifferent just because of how helpless the situation is. I remember Operation Cast Lead in 2008, 1500 Palestinians killed over two weeks and not an eyelid batted throughout the world.
The thing is, Israel is being disproportionate but nothing's going to change. They have all the bargaining chips, all the military strength, and that's the way they want to keep it. So you'll see more land being taken from the Palestinians via settlements, more episodic mass killings, and more indifference from the wider world. They've long realised that the most important aspect in world politics is having the USA by your side as it then keeps all the other Arab states / the wider world in check.
Though I understand the Israeli position. It's easy to criticise being safe in the UK - but if I was an Israeli living in Israel like Fearless I presume is, I'd want to be as heavy handed as possible. You're surrounded by potential enemies - they may not be enemies now but in 10 years who knows? You give them an inch, let them develop as a country / nation, and they could come back to bite you in 20 years time as a potential equal / enemy.
But it's just sad. I'm sure the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians are people who would elsewise want nothing but to live in peace, but the events of WWII and the creation of Israel has left scars deep that'll take a long, long time to heal for the Palestinians who've lost out significantly. There's really no solution - a two state solution will never happen barring a significant change in opinion in Israeli politics, and Palestinians who live in areas under Israeli control but have no citizenship will never be granted citizenship as Israelis would then become the minorities. So instead you have this perpetual cycle of nothingness for the Palestinians.
Just makes me think of how divisive us humans are, we have to fit into arbitrary groups via nationality or religion or else we feel unsafe. But then we fight with other groups, as has happened throughout history. Funnily enough if another planet somewhere invaded us we'd all unite and forget about all these divisions, but till then we need to divide ourselves and find things to be angry about. It's a shame really, the wider developed world have largely cut out wars between them (jinx permitting), but the more developing nations are far more prone to war simply because of how unstable militarily, economically and democratically they are. Maybe one day eh.
The thing is, Israel is being disproportionate but nothing's going to change. They have all the bargaining chips, all the military strength, and that's the way they want to keep it. So you'll see more land being taken from the Palestinians via settlements, more episodic mass killings, and more indifference from the wider world. They've long realised that the most important aspect in world politics is having the USA by your side as it then keeps all the other Arab states / the wider world in check.
Though I understand the Israeli position. It's easy to criticise being safe in the UK - but if I was an Israeli living in Israel like Fearless I presume is, I'd want to be as heavy handed as possible. You're surrounded by potential enemies - they may not be enemies now but in 10 years who knows? You give them an inch, let them develop as a country / nation, and they could come back to bite you in 20 years time as a potential equal / enemy.
But it's just sad. I'm sure the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians are people who would elsewise want nothing but to live in peace, but the events of WWII and the creation of Israel has left scars deep that'll take a long, long time to heal for the Palestinians who've lost out significantly. There's really no solution - a two state solution will never happen barring a significant change in opinion in Israeli politics, and Palestinians who live in areas under Israeli control but have no citizenship will never be granted citizenship as Israelis would then become the minorities. So instead you have this perpetual cycle of nothingness for the Palestinians.
Just makes me think of how divisive us humans are, we have to fit into arbitrary groups via nationality or religion or else we feel unsafe. But then we fight with other groups, as has happened throughout history. Funnily enough if another planet somewhere invaded us we'd all unite and forget about all these divisions, but till then we need to divide ourselves and find things to be angry about. It's a shame really, the wider developed world have largely cut out wars between them (jinx permitting), but the more developing nations are far more prone to war simply because of how unstable militarily, economically and democratically they are. Maybe one day eh.
Unfortunately, it seems like the Pro Palestinian movements are very good at obscuring and ignoring truths.
The sentiment might be shared across US politics but until now the leaders of the country have chosen not to implement the act because they knew what repercussions it would have.
I honestly think it was completely unnecessary to add fuel to a fire by moving the embassy and declaring Jerusalem the capital of Israel openly. Even someone with very little knowledge about the issues like me knew something bad was going to happen.
Edit: I'm neither for or against Israel or Palestine because I really don't know enough about the subject but I feel Trump was an idiot for doing what he did and I partly hold him responsible for violence brewing now.
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And lost terribly.
You can also consider the other site, for example after the peace talks, Yaser Arafat compared that peace to Mohamed's peace with his tribe (when he was in Medina). Aka, a temporary solution until we become stronger to defeat the Jews.
No-one is interested in a compromise. And with the Israel holding all the cards, it means that only Palestinians will suffer. They can continue like this forever, or prepare for extreme compromises including the entire Jerusalem as capital of Israel. The alternative is to continue dying or expect for an extreme change of powers (essentially a new world war with US losing it, and some Arabian ally winning it). Chances for that are extremely unlikely.
On the other hand, Israel holds all the cards, being military more powerful than all Arabian countries (+ Iran) combined, their citizens having comfortable lives, US backing them and EU accepting what they do. They need to gain a lot in order to show even the smallest of compromises.
@Fearless. You know that your only defense in these threads is a logical fallacy right?.
"Why do you Israel violate human rights?", "but, Hamas" is not or never an answer. It's nothing but a deflection tactic.
"Why do you Israel violate human rights?", "but, Hamas" is not or never an answer. It's nothing but a deflection tactic.
Fantasy history. There was no way the Jewish would have stayed in the land as partitioned by the UN in 48. They can't stop stealing land today
Hamas is the first government in history to deliberately lure it's enemies to kill it's own population.
Right or wrong?
The Palestinians have never been offered a true state, just versions of aparthied
What does that have to do anything with the fact that Israel killed 60 protesters?
If the Palestinian state ever grew vibrant and therefore powerful Israel would have attacked
If Hamas have hundreds of attack tunnels why aren't they using them?
Read the question again.
Are you actually denying that there are attack tunnels????????????????????????
We are. As well as the Arab armies attacking Israel from all sides (including within) causing (and instructing) 800,000 Palestine Arabs to flee, 800,000 Arab Jews were booted out from their Arab countries.
So instead of the Arabs accepting the partition, they chose this:
No mention of the Israeli massacres of Palestinians? Doesn't fit your narrative
Because 'the Jewish' can't help themselves.
No. But unlike Israeli sniper rifles they aren't being used
And why's that?
I used Jewish and distinct from Israeli as there are Palestinians with Israeli citizenship
Because they are not interested in attacking Israel currently
Which makes them Israeli then.
No. They've been blown up. Millions of dollars wasted by your Jihadi heroes.
The existence of an apartheid state is a problem
The existence of a Jewish state is your problem.
Would this region be any more peaceful if there was no Israel state to begin with? Somehow I doubt it. Middle East has been a hotbed of conflict throughout the history of humankind.
But that doesn't justify the massacre. The whole thing, from Trump's announcement to the mass murder is just crazy. It's absolute insanity.
But that doesn't justify the massacre. The whole thing, from Trump's announcement to the mass murder is just crazy. It's absolute insanity.