Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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triggeredA lot of people didnt vote the first time round that would in a second referendum. Leave would probably get 58%
When a vote was based on almost pure lies, misinterpretations and non-issues and then when iy begins to be implemented and the outcomes narrow to someehere between disaster and clusterfeck I think it is highly democratic to ask people again in a more specific way.
The polls say differently.
At least Brussels was funding Bradford, Birmingham and Fife. Regional UK will get fecked yet again if Brexit happens. Doubly so under a Tory government.
What Brexiters? Most of the dyed-in-the-wool brexiters are fanatical unilateral zero-tariffers
Not on this scale. And the consequences of Brexit are far worse than any general election would be.
And you can rectify a mistake at a general election next time around. If we actually go through with Brexit it could be decades before we go back in and by then untold damage will have been done. Not to mention that we will have to go back in without all of the concessions we currently enjoy.
Not in this case. I think enough of the non voters last time and some leavers have realised how bad things look.
That's very debatable. WTO rules wouldn't equate to the same armageddon that Jeremy's economic policy would do. What some people fail to consider is that Brexit will force wages up for many jobs in this country. Nobody really knows what Brexit will mean in detail, but even a no deal isn't the catastrophe that some think.
There are loads of remain who have seen the way the EU have treated the UK in negotiations who have turned from Remain to Leave. Everyone I know in Romania, Hungary, Belgium, agree with two fingers up to the EU, and the bullies in France and Germany.
Never said it was the sole reason we got better. More us not being part of the EEC in the first place helped contribute to us being the sick man of Europe.
Despite all that and even with the rise of the far right in Hungary, remaining in the EU is more popular than ever in those countries.
More than happy for the UK to stick their neck out but the thought of themselves leaving the EU would be disastrous.
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In real terms? I very much doubt that.
The analogy you chose is a pretty good indicator for why people don't listen to you. They aren't children, they're your equal. A significant part of the Brexit momentum came from a pushback against people acting superior. Why not try listening to them as peers instead of educating them like children?
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Yet the polls still say 53 to 47 majority for remain.
Probably because people who voted remain largely didn't expect the EU to negotiate in the fantasy land the leave campaign invented.
I wasn't comparing Brexiteers to children, I was comparing the UK to a hypothetical child of mine as a metaphor for something I care about and do not wish to see harmed. If a Brexiteer ran into a bees nest there'll be no point me saying anything as if I did I'll get blamed for the fact he got stung because I shouted "This is a terrible idea" - if I stopped talking him down and was a bit more positive, the bees might have given him the same deal he had before he decided to run into their nest i.e not stinging him. And if they do sting him it'll be because I'm a Remoaner...sorry, that I'm a disbeeleiver.
That is a pretty bad reason to vote leave. I mean if they were worried about the consequence but chose to ignore it because of that sentence in bold, then that mentality does sound like a petulant child if you ask me.
Good grief
Clearly that isn't the reason they voted brexit. The impact of the expert view telling people they're idiots is that they start to reason that away, that the experts aren't all that and it's just opinion anyway. As a result they gravitate towards the brexit voices they already agree with and it validates their beliefs.
I'm pretty sure people haven't taken that lesson to heart but thankfully a second referendum wouldn't be about the voter it would be attributing blame for this shambles. A much easier argument to convince people on.
There's an inevitability to treating your peers as children when their response to common sense explanations is to stick their fingers in their ears and shout"Na, Na, Na, Na, I'm not listening"
What have the EU done?
Britain have been a calamity so far.
There is still no plan 2 years on, what is the fecking plan? and it's the EU's fault? The EU clearly stated that Britain will not get to have their cake and eat it. Yet that's what Britain seem to want?
How the feck do you deal with someone that hasn't made their mind up on what they want yet?
Once the UK leaves and it ends up being a tad shyte, you'll be one of them blaming the fecking EU rather than the fact you were duped by this shitshow.
Home Office stopped author from speaking at UK festival, says publisher
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Visa refusals mean Palestinian Nayrouz Qarmout unlikely to get to Edinburgh book festival
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...ayrouz-qarmout-speaking-uk-festival-edinburgh
It's essentially a quieter version of Trump's muslim ban and it's not just the UK doing it, the schengen region is similarly unfriendly when it comes to issuing visas to anyone from the ME, Pakistan, Indonesia etc. It took over 4 months last year to get a visa for our new Syrian Engineer based in Saudi to travel over to Belgium to visit the production plants and undergo 3 days training, the original idea of training him in the UK and then driving over to Belgium was a complete write off as the UK visa plus the schengen process would have taken over twice as long. This year we started much earlier as we were inviting him along with two Egyptian Engineers and our UAE based sales director for similar training in the Netherlands and hoping to get it completed before I leave the company in 2 weeks time. We've been pissed around and waiting for the last 5 months and have now been told they should all have their paperwork approved in late September making the trip largely pointless as I'll be gone by then.
Thought it was an extremely well crafted argument myself.
What I took away was a message about caring for others but … whatever, everyone to their own I suppose.
btw: There were two (2) analogies actually, and the second one could not possibly be anything to do with a child.
Which, unsurprisingly, leads me to believe that I doubt you read the whole thing before your knee-jerk reaction.
It's like playing Monopoly with a child who demands Mayfair for £100 despite it being valued at £400 and then screams and shouts when the child is laughed at. The adult has done nothing wrong but chuckle at the naive child having a tantrum.
Real wages? I dont agree.
Any rises in business costs post brexit are likely to get passed onto consumers.
Dyed in the wool Brexiters want no deal which is WTO rules.
Without a trade deal there will not be many zero tariffs.
Very few (if any) seem to understand what WTO rules mean.
The only thing worse than WTO rules is being refused entry into the WTO.
I readily admit I gave up reading well before the end. Long-winded analogies never work how they're intended. Quite a low percentage of short analogies too, I suspect.
Every now and again the odd Brexiter shows up.
Every now and again the odd visitor "I really did vote remain, honestly I did, no really I did...."
Europe are bullying the UK because they won't let the UK have their own way, how moronic is this statement. This usually comes from the same people who continue to say the EU needs the UK more than the other way round.
Then we have statements like "if we have to pay tariffs on produce from the EU we'll buy from the rest of the world instead."
It hasn't sunk in that all agreements, all of them, are null and void when the UK leave the EU so wherever the UK buys its produce from it will pay the same tariff under WTO rules. If the item is 44% under WTO rules from the EU, it's 44% from Australia as well, just takes a lot longer to get there.
I'll repeat again, tariffs are not the biggest problem, if the UK does not belong to the Customs Union and goes to WTO rules, a hard border will surround the UK and that will be a disaster.
Every now and again the odd visitor "I really did vote remain, honestly I did, no really I did...."
Europe are bullying the UK because they won't let the UK have their own way, how moronic is this statement. This usually comes from the same people who continue to say the EU needs the UK more than the other way round.
Then we have statements like "if we have to pay tariffs on produce from the EU we'll buy from the rest of the world instead."
It hasn't sunk in that all agreements, all of them, are null and void when the UK leave the EU so wherever the UK buys its produce from it will pay the same tariff under WTO rules. If the item is 44% under WTO rules from the EU, it's 44% from Australia as well, just takes a lot longer to get there.
I'll repeat again, tariffs are not the biggest problem, if the UK does not belong to the Customs Union and goes to WTO rules, a hard border will surround the UK and that will be a disaster.
Point taken, but … you didn't bother to write a strongly worded reply to the original poster did you? That's the person I was addressing with my comment.
EDIT: Read it again a few times and it is relevant I suppose!
I probably won't have an answer but why France and Germany in particular? It's amazing how France are either weak or a bully depending on the nonsense that the narrator wants to put forward.
Look up the actual position of Jacob Rees Mogg and Dan Hannan
Take your pic I guess. Either cos they're the biggest economies or they're historic enemies, albeit less so Germany.
If you want to well and truly win an argument, defeat your opponents strongest argument, not their weakest.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...-trade-free-market-institute-economic-affairs
https://www.cgdev.org/blog/beyond-brexit-unilateral-tariff-reduction-really-such-crazy-idea
https://www.ft.com/content/2a009b7c-2d71-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc
https://policyexchange.org.uk/brita...-tariffs-and-become-a-champion-of-free-trade/
https://blogs.sussex.ac.uk/uktpo/2018/02/22/will-unilateral-free-trade-be-the-making-of-brexit/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776
These unilateral-free-tradeists are fanatics. Brexit is only a small part of their revolution. They want to scrap all import duties and make Britain a modern day Singapore. They have zero interest in arguments about immigration... they'd actually probably be pro-immigration although they wont admit it.
But the only thing they really care about is scrapping import duties. Chinese steel would be dirt cheap, clothes from India would cost only pennies, electronics from Asia would be much cheaper. They argue that services make up the vast majority of the UK economy, and services would benefit from cheap world wide goods.
Of course they are ridiculous fanatics. Our manufacturing sector would collapse unless others agreed to also drop their import tariffs. We'd have no rights to sell our services into Europe or America or anywhere else.
But it's the fantasy they've been dreaming of for decades. They have no interest in trade deals. They want revolution.
That's not what the dyed-in-the-wool brexiters want. They want to revert back to WTO rules, then unilaterally remove all import tariffs.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...-trade-free-market-institute-economic-affairs
https://www.cgdev.org/blog/beyond-brexit-unilateral-tariff-reduction-really-such-crazy-idea
https://www.ft.com/content/2a009b7c-2d71-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc
https://policyexchange.org.uk/brita...-tariffs-and-become-a-champion-of-free-trade/
https://blogs.sussex.ac.uk/uktpo/2018/02/22/will-unilateral-free-trade-be-the-making-of-brexit/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776
These unilateral-free-tradeists are fanatics. Brexit is only a small part of their revolution. They want to scrap all import duties and make Britain a modern day Singapore. They have zero interest in arguments about immigration... they'd actually probably be pro-immigration although they wont admit it.
But the only thing they really care about is scrapping import duties. Chinese steel would be dirt cheap, clothes from India would cost only pennies, electronics from Asia would be much cheaper. They argue that services make up the vast majority of the UK economy, and services would benefit from cheap world wide goods.
Of course they are ridiculous fanatics. Our manufacturing sector would collapse unless others agreed to also drop their import tariffs. We'd have no rights to sell our services into Europe or America or anywhere else.
But it's the fantasy they've been dreaming of for decades. They have no interest in trade deals. They want revolution.
I don't have a problem with your analogy there (it's alright actually) but it ignores the original point I was making. I was probably being a bit of a dick in assuming your situation - apologies for that, but I'll maintain that the majority of people who 'wish' for an economic downturn are probably doing so from a position where they know they'll probably be alright. Certainly very few people will actively hope for their economic fortunes to decline.
That's important because...if you're not particularly well-off, why the feck are you going to listen to someone who clearly doesn't care about you at all and who's happy for economic misfortune to be inflicted upon you? If you're genuinely hoping for other people to find themselves in a position where they're struggling economically, just so you can be proven right, there's no reason as to why the people likely to be affected by that shouldn't feel anything other than antipathy for you.
I get it. Brexit's stupid. It's a silly, pointless venture that should've never happened. But if you're hoping for people to find themselves in a position where they're worse off economically you're probably (not you specifically - in a general sense of word) extraordinarily insulated from the conditions and societal problems that are currently making people angry and driving them to more extreme options.
The last point is moot - I've disagreed with Corbyn plenty and didn't vote for him last year.
Ah, yes, I see what you mean, but the rest of us live in the real world. The UK economy would collapse very very quickly.
So if I understand correctly, it's a fantasy based on an irrelevant historical past. Truth be told, Germany, France and the UK have been at the forefront of the EU and international politics in general because we all have industries that are very good at lobbying, our politicians have a relatively limited influence, they are more influenced than anything else. Also Brexit isn't a huge subject in french politics, in fact it's not a subject at all which makes this obsession with France or Germany really strange from where I stand.
You haven't seen the current Brexit catchphrases: "There will be rioting in the streets of Europe if the EU don't give us a deal" or "What will the French and Spanish farmers do when they can't sell their produce to the UK" - sell them elsewhere? but don't tell the Brexiters.
Chuck in our island mentality too- people forget or don't realise how much of a role UK lawyers played in writing the EU legislation.
Tbh the obsession with Germany and France is arguably the least stupid thing about Brexit.
It's actually an interesting subject, the UK are the sixth exports partner for France and the food industry isn't that big, most sales are in the heavy industry. Also France has Rungis which means that we have a bigger capacity to export anywhere.